‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement[W:25]

[Aristaeus]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Israel as a state existed since 1948 and owned united Jerusalem since 1967. The land itself has been occupied by Jordanians, British, Ottomans and others since it was taken from the Jewish people but did not belong to them. There is no global "rule of law" concept, there is no single world government. Israel has liberated Jerusalem and that's all that matters.

Edit: Just seen the mod warning about not mentioning Israel in the thread discussing the capital of Israel. :/

So... errr... US allies have condemned the move.

 

[Aristaeus]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Moderator's Warning:

This is a no tolerance in-thread so pay attention folks. This thread started out as talking about how the world, specifically US allies (and a few others like Russia) is reacting to Trumps statement on Jerusalem being the Capital of Israel. The Moderation Team would like to remind everyone that any discussion regarding Israel and Palestine is strictly prohibited outside of the I/P forum. As such this thread will remain about how US allies are reacting to Trumps pronouncement. Anyone discussing Palestine in this thread WILL be given an infraction and thread banned. If it happens too much then the thread will be closed after infractions are handed out and you will no longer be allowed to start up a new discussion regarding US allies responses on this subject again. Any such attempt would be a violation of our rules. The Moderation Team does understand that Palestine's reaction to this is important also. But there is already a thread in the I/P forum for discussing such Here. So do not bring it into this thread. Again... Talk of Palestine or anything related to it (like the history of the area) and Israel is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Keep this thread about US allies reactions. Nothing more. Nothing less. And as always, stick to the topic, do not make things personal, no side swipes etc etc. One more time. This thread is under a ZERO TOLERANCE WARNING. Anyone caught violating any rules WILL be given an infraction and thread banned. We are not playing even a little bit on this folks. Do NOT mention Palestine or the history of the area.

But Palestine and the history of the area is absolutely crucial to the context of the debate.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Moderator's Warning:

This is not up for debate. And please do not question moderator in-thread warnings openly. If you have a question then the appropriate way to do so is via PM or the Contact Us link at the bottom of every page. Doing this can result in a rule 6a Infraction. But Palestine and the history of the area is absolutely crucial to the context of the debate.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Israel does not own Jerusalem and hasn't done for 2,000 years. Jerusalem was owned by the Canaanites and Egyptians for 1,000 years before the Jewish people, so they don't even have an original ownership claim. Biblical text does not take priority over established modern legal ownership.

Israel is a signatory of the Geneva convention and the International Court of Justice, and is bound by those laws.

These are agreements, not laws. Israel is bound by agreements and it disputes the fact that its liberation of Jeursalem for example is a violation of that agreement, but there is no "rule of law" concept that is applied by these agreements, there is no single world government.

What is an "original ownership claim"? The Canaanites don't exist today and weren't a people, they were a group of different people. The Egyptians have occupied the land but it isn't their homeland, they are called Egyptians after all. The land of Israel has always been only the homeland of one people, that is an historical indisputable truth, biblical text has nothing to do with it.

 

[HowardBThiname]

‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Ahead of Trump's pronouncement, close U.S. allies such as Britain, France and Germany had criticized him and questioned the wisdom of such a move. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said Tuesday that the pursuit of such policies by the Trump administration is why traditional U.S.-European ties have started to “crumble.”

“We all know the far-reaching impact this move would have,” Gabriel said. “Germany’s position on this issue remains unchanged: A solution to the Jerusalem problem can only be found through direct negotiations between both parties. Everything which worsens the crisis is counterproductive.”

In Russia, the Kremlin also joined the list of nations fearing that such a move will exacerbate tensions between Israel and Palestinians, saying that the situation could worsen as a result. It was one of the few times a Kremlin foreign policy goal has converged with that of most NATO member states.Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said the U.S. plan is “unlawful” and could have “irreversible consequences” in the region.

So, looks like Trump managed to unite the whole damn world against us this time.

I can't think of anything more likely to cause attacks than recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol or Israel.The only group that will happy with this is religious fanatics - including evangelicals around the world and right wing Israelis. I can't think of any group in the US who benefits by this other than the 'end is nigh' crowd pushing for the 3rd temple. What possible reason could he have for making this decision?

Right now I am betting a reversal will come - because this is ridiculous.

Absolutely nothing has changed.

Israel has been in control of Jerusalem for half a century and that will continue.

All I'm hearing is a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth from those who don't know what the status has been all along.

There will be no reversal -- I'd bet on it.

There's nothing to reverse. Trump's announcement is simply a recognition of what's been happening for half a century.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

I agree.

Jerusalem was founded by the Jews

Bull****.. The Jebusites, a Canaanite tribe were there before the Jews conquered the city/town.

 

[Aristaeus]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Bull****.. The Jebusites, a Canaanite tribe were there before the Jews conquered the city/town.

And the Assyrians took it over from the Jews, then along came the Romans, etc, etc.

Jerusalem has existed for 4,000 years and Israel has had legal ownership of it for around 300 of those 4,000 years.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

And the Assyrians took it over from the Jews, then along came the Romans, etc, etc.

Jerusalem has existed for 4,000 years and Israel has had legal ownership of it for around 300 of those 4,000 years.

And the Turks had ownership of it for far longer than that..

 

[calamity]

‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Ahead of Trump's pronouncement, close U.S. allies such as Britain, France and Germany had criticized him and questioned the wisdom of such a move. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said Tuesday that the pursuit of such policies by the Trump administration is why traditional U.S.-European ties have started to “crumble.”

“We all know the far-reaching impact this move would have,” Gabriel said. “Germany’s position on this issue remains unchanged: A solution to the Jerusalem problem can only be found through direct negotiations between both parties. Everything which worsens the crisis is counterproductive.”

In Russia, the Kremlin also joined the list of nations fearing that such a move will exacerbate tensions between Israel and Palestinians, saying that the situation could worsen as a result. It was one of the few times a Kremlin foreign policy goal has converged with that of most NATO member states.Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said the U.S. plan is “unlawful” and could have “irreversible consequences” in the region.

So, looks like Trump managed to unite the whole damn world against us this time.

I can't think of anything more likely to cause attacks than recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol or Israel.The only group that will happy with this is religious fanatics - including evangelicals around the world and right wing Israelis. I can't think of any group in the US who benefits by this other than the 'end is nigh' crowd pushing for the 3rd temple. What possible reason could he have for making this decision?

Right now I am betting a reversal will come - because this is ridiculous.

It's almost like Trump wants to turn the world against us. Putin's dream come true.

 

[upsideguy]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Still blowing more stuff out of proportion I see.

Why is it that people get up in a damn tizzy whenever he does anything?

Because in his ignorance and arrogance he continues to do incredibly stupid things. There was nothing to gain by this move; and much to lose. In terms of brokering middle-east peace, he has shown himself to have no negotiation skill whatsoever.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Because in his ignorance and arrogance he continues to do incredibly stupid things. There was nothing to gain by this move; and much to lose. In terms of brokering middle-east peace, he has shown himself to have no negotiation skill whatsoever.

I think Trump made the move simply to throw read meat to end times Christians in the U.S. Some of their blogs crashed from overload when this news broke.

Read this site a little:
Rapture Index - Latest activity indicators of when the Rapture might occur.

 

[CJ 2.0]

‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Ahead of Trump's pronouncement, close U.S. allies such as Britain, France and Germany had criticized him and questioned the wisdom of such a move. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said Tuesday that the pursuit of such policies by the Trump administration is why traditional U.S.-European ties have started to “crumble.”

“We all know the far-reaching impact this move would have,” Gabriel said. “Germany’s position on this issue remains unchanged: A solution to the Jerusalem problem can only be found through direct negotiations between both parties. Everything which worsens the crisis is counterproductive.”

In Russia, the Kremlin also joined the list of nations fearing that such a move will exacerbate tensions between Israel and Palestinians, saying that the situation could worsen as a result. It was one of the few times a Kremlin foreign policy goal has converged with that of most NATO member states.Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said the U.S. plan is “unlawful” and could have “irreversible consequences” in the region.

So, looks like Trump managed to unite the whole damn world against us this time.

I can't think of anything more likely to cause attacks than recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol or Israel.The only group that will happy with this is religious fanatics - including evangelicals around the world and right wing Israelis. I can't think of any group in the US who benefits by this other than the 'end is nigh' crowd pushing for the 3rd temple. What possible reason could he have for making this decision?

Right now I am betting a reversal will come - because this is ridiculous.

And this from the clowns who thought the Iran deal was a good idea, thought invading Libya was a good idea, enabled ISIS in Syria, etc? And a good measure of nonsense from the Islamist Turkish dictator too?

 

[Tigerace117]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Yeah - it comes from both sides of the spectrum



It's the holy city for 3 different faiths (actually more) - and while there have been Jews there all along there have also been Christians and Muslims.




Learn some history - WWI was against the Ottoman Empire. It was split into separate protectorates by Europe.

View attachment 67225775

Syria became an independent nation in 1946. Transjordan was also created exactly 2 years before Israel.It was meant to be a Palestinian state, and has a population over 90% Palestinian. The Hashemites took over, kicked all the protestors out into the West Bank - and then gave the West Bank to Israel. Jerusalem was split between Transjordan and Israel in 1948. Everything going on there is rebound from WWI.



If you ask an American they all believe Trump is....fill in the blank. There are huge differences of opinion in Israel just like there are in the US.

But the fact remains that the Israelis grabbed the city from the Jordanians. You randomly bringing up the First World War is rather odd, especially when you suddenly jump to 1946, and....don't actually manage to refute anything I said.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

But the fact remains that the Israelis grabbed the city from the Jordanians. You randomly bringing up the First World War is rather odd, especially when you suddenly jump to 1946, and....don't actually manage to refute anything I said.

Grabbed?

Seriously? So the Jordanians were illegally occupying it and used it to launch attacks against Israelis living in Israel and declared they were joining the war effort to destroy Israel completely (which the Jordanians believed was going very well) but it was a "grab" by Israel.

The rank double standards and hypocrisy when it comes to anything and everything Israel has ever done is more of an indictment of the entire anti-Israel movement and group of supporters than you recognize.

And to tie back to the thread, the failure of other western governments to support this move just shows how deeply ingrained this nonsense is and how broken politics has become when it comes to Israeli issues.

 

[Tigerace117]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Religious?
As far as it upsets you the Jewish people exist and have existed in Jerusalem for 3,000 years. It is their historical capital. The place where they were born as a people. Jerusalem has been liberated from the Jordanians, not "stolen".

Yep, and there were people living there long before King David showed up. Israel has always used religion to justify expansion. Considering the fact that there was an Israel before King David sacked the city and made it the new capital, to argue that Judaism was "born" there seems rather odd. It was where the Jews set up their various major religious facilities, but if you trust the Okd Testament as any sort of source the Jews were pissing off God about something or other about every other week, so.....

The fact remains that nobody was complaining about the way the Jordanians were running things; liberation thus is not really the right term.

 

[Higgins86]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Israel allows that Palestine has a right to exist. The Palestinians have never allowed that Israel has a right to exist. Palestinians are not now and have never been invested in peace. Turkey under Erdogan and other extremist states like Iran have forever vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Its never a question of if but when tensions will continue to escalate. Meanwhile, just this last week, the UK uncovered plots by fundamentalist Muslims to kill both Teresa May and the 4 year old Prince George. The people y'all are bent on appeasing are still actively murdering people across the planet.

Your appeasement isnt working.

The Major of Jerusalem has already come out and said he rejects the idea of allowing Palestine to declare East Jerusalem as their capital so it looks like once again its Israel dictating how this should play out which gives us no hope of a two state solution.

 

[Tigerace117]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Grabbed?

Seriously? So the Jordanians were illegally occupying it and used it to launch attacks against Israelis living in Israel and declared they were joining the war effort to destroy Israel completely (which the Jordanians believed was going very well) but it was a "grab" by Israel.

The rank double standards and hypocrisy when it comes to anything and everything Israel has ever done is more of an indictment of the entire anti-Israel movement and group of supporters than you recognize.

And to tie back to the thread, the failure of other western governments to support this move just shows how deeply ingrained this nonsense is and how broken politics has become when it comes to Israeli issues.

Oh really? We are using the "people are fighting a war, so therefore it's illegal" argument?

The fact remains that unlike the Egyptians and Syrians, the Jordanians were professionals unmotivated by any sort of "genocidal desire to annihilate the Jews"--- which is proven by the fact that Israel and Jordan have had decent relations for quite some time now.

The Israelis wanted an opportunity to grab the city, they saw it, they took it. There is no need to moralize about it anymore than that.

Perhaps if your own brand of psychos hadn't murdered Yitzhak Rabin people would actually believe you when you say you want peace---rather than a never ending chance to "look tough" and blow up city blocks.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Yep, and there were people living there long before King David showed up. Israel has always used religion to justify expansion. Considering the fact that there was an Israel before King David sacked the city and made it the new capital, to argue that Judaism was "born" there seems rather odd. It was where the Jews set up their various major religious facilities, but if you trust the Okd Testament as any sort of source the Jews were pissing off God about something or other about every other week, so.....

The fact remains that nobody was complaining about the way the Jordanians were running things; liberation thus is not really the right term.

Well, certainly the Jews systematically ethnically cleansed from territories occupied by Jordan would have been complaining, no?

And I do recall the Palestinians having a spot of bother with the Jordanians in Black September 1970 - don't you?

 

[CJ 2.0]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Oh really? We are using the "people are fighting a war, so therefore it's illegal" argument?

Dude, an unprovoked war of aggression to destroy another state and commit genocide (as defined in treaties) is the quintessential definition of "illegal" under "international law". This shouldn't be hard for someone purportedly committed to international law and the outcomes prescribed by such law...

The fact remains that unlike the Egyptians and Syrians, the Jordanians were professionals unmotivated by any sort of "genocidal desire to annihilate the Jews"--- which is proven by the fact that Israel and Jordan have had decent relations for quite some time now.

Woopedy-doo. The Jordanians launched their offensive when they were lead to believe that the Israeli defences in the south were smashed and Egypt was in the process of conquering Israel. The Jordnaian objective was to assist Egypt in completing that objective.

So regardless of the nobility of the Jordanian solider or whether the Jordanian leadership had the genocidal intent that Nasser had (they didn't), they launched an unprovoked war against what they thought was a defenseless foe for the purpose of destroying its sovereign existence.

So you know what, I'm pretty sure that they themselves didn't want to kill all the Jews doesn't mean much.

The Israelis wanted an opportunity to grab the city, they saw it, they took it. There is no need to moralize about it anymore than that.

Perhaps if your own brand of psychos hadn't murdered Yitzhak Rabin people would actually believe you when you say you want peace---rather than a never ending chance to "look tough" and blow up city blocks.

You know Rabin never supported Palestinian independence, right? And nice touch with the parting demonization shot. Really made the difference...

 

[OlNate]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

I agree.

Jerusalem was founded by the Jews, was the location of the Holy Temple built in 957 BC, and belongs to that people more than any other group who lay some claim to it...even Christians who should recognize that Jesus was a Jew.

They've come home. They are independent and capable of defending their nation now.

I support his announcement...as long as it is the Jewish people who have to act without American military support to enforce their claims.

Do you think historic regional ownership really dictates modern ownership, though? Not asking this question to be a jerk, just thinking that if that were applied evenly across the globe, we'd have to drastically change our maps, borders, and governments. Is that a valid claim today? I just wonder how you'd sort it all out, especially in Israel. In doing a quick check, the Jews really haven't "owned" it that much...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

(Sorry for the Wikipedia link, was a quick reference, and I'm a little lazy at the moment to find a better source, but will look, if you don't like it)

 

[Grand Mal]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Do you think historic regional ownership really dictates modern ownership, though? Not asking this question to be a jerk, just thinking that if that were applied evenly across the globe, we'd have to drastically change our maps, borders, and governments. Is that a valid claim today? I just wonder how you'd sort it all out, especially in Israel. In doing a quick check, the Jews really haven't "owned" it that much...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

(Sorry for the Wikipedia link, was a quick reference, and I'm a little lazy at the moment to find a better source, but will look, if you don't like it)

I wonder who owned America when Jerusalem was last in the hands of the Jews.
What conservatism is about is taking a snapshot of a moment in history, declaring it to be the perfect moment, and doing whatever's necessary to 'conserve' that moment. In the case of Jerusalem, that moment was a long time ago.

Wikipedia's a good source, if you use the footnoted links to references.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

I wonder who owned America when Jerusalem was last in the hands of the Jews.
What conservatism is about is taking a snapshot of a moment in history, declaring it to be the perfect moment, and doing whatever's necessary to 'conserve' that moment. In the case of Jerusalem, that moment was a long time ago.

Wikipedia's a good source, if you use the footnoted links to references.

The Jews de facto own it today. There’s no laws of physics requiring the Moslems to own Jerusalem

 

[What if...?]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

The Jews de facto own it today. There’s no laws of physics requiring the Moslems to own Jerusalem

There is some disconnect when a group claims no need to follow rules then cries about people who won't obey the rules.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

LOL. Watch teh short video in the following:

Day of rage in Jerusalem: Palestinians protest, clash with police - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

All of the comments from the Palestinians are that this changes nothing, Jerusalem is occupied just like Tel Aviv and Haifa, Jerusalem is the "eternal capital of Palestine" and I refuse the existence of the state of israel and similar nonsense.

Exhibit A for why the traditional approach has failed and why the world needs to move on and leave the Palestinians to wallow in their own misery until they come to terms with a reality-based approach to existing.

 

[Tigerace117]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Well, certainly the Jews systematically ethnically cleansed from territories occupied by Jordan would have been complaining, no?

And I do recall the Palestinians having a spot of bother with the Jordanians in Black September 1970 - don't you?

Oh, you mean the failed attempts by the PLO to repeatedly knock off the King of Jordan, resulting in their eventual expulsion? I suppose that qualifies as a "bother".

I guess in 1948 nobody cared enough about the Jews who'd been kicked out of their homes in the "Jewish Quarter" to mention them in the "extremely detailed" armistice agreement.