‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement[W:25]

[OlNate]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

I sort it out quite simply. Right of conquest (or more appropriately, reclamation by force).

The same rule that has allowed government's everywhere to claim ownership of territory and do with it as they deem appropriate.

The Jews have retaken their homeland. They are capable of defending it (as shown every time opponents tried to take it back) by force of arms.

That's good enough for me.



See above.

They didn't retake their land, it was handed to them, and sure, they managed to hold onto it, with the (eventual - they sure made a hell of a stand at the start, I'm familiar with the history) backing of the world's greatest military. I think that counts as a difference, no?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Gonna be a part of his "great legacy" for The Donald, this selfish decision to "be the one" to recognize Jerusalem...it's more important, as he trolls thru the limits of his power...to find the low-hanging fruit that he can enable merely with his signature.

The destabilization, lives lost, and results be damned! It's more important to put another notch on his golf club.

Maybe if the Palestinians wanted stabilization it wouldn’t be an issue. The Jews de facto occupy, their legislature sits in Jerusalem, it’s considered the capital by Israel. The US needs to recognize that. To say otherwise is as insane as saying Albany is not the capital of New York or that Santiago isn’t the capital of Chile or that Ottawa isn’t the capital of Canada, and to deny that because of bitter terrorists who do not have the military power nor historical legitimacy to occupy the city is the wrong decision

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

They didn't retake their land, it was handed to them, and sure, they managed to hold onto it, with the (eventual - they sure made a hell of a stand at the start, I'm familiar with the history) backing of the world's greatest military. I think that counts as a difference, no?

Not really. Because reality on the ground is they hold the ground and alliances or not they can defend it

 

[What if...?]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

That's not what the anger is about. It never was. It is about the Jews having their independence in Israel.

And the people who lost their homes supported those who tried to expel the Jews.

And their homes were taken over by these people and those like them:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/murder-looting-burning-remembering-the-aden-riots-of-1947/

OK. You don't know that those people supported the invaders. If opinions are scattered as they always are some did, some didn't, and some didn't have an opinion.

Arabs and Jews had gotten along more or less for decades around the area, some were friends and colleagues.

And again, it is unlikely that any of those who lost their homes on the other side of the "country" were responsible for the atrocities you cite.

Israel literally punishes people for who they are genetically and culturally and not for anything they themselves did but for something somebody else, somewhere else, did.

Which defines the persecution the Jews themselves were subject to during the diaspora.

Which for me is the greatest offense. Doing unto others because it was done to you.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Because it is the right decision, because there shouldn't need to be "negotiation" for the ownership of Jerusalem, any more than there should be for Mecca, Vatican City, or any other place other races, cultures, and religions claim as wholly their own.

Jerusalem is their city, the city of their culture, religion, and people. It is their capital and always has been for more than a thousand years...even when they were forced to leave it time and again, conqueror after conqueror, occupier after occupier.

Funny how people on the left of every other argument, claiming this group, or that belief system deserves reparations, etc., fudge on this one.

Apparently everyone is deserving it seems...except the Jews. They have to negotiate for what is and has always been uniquely theirs.

Really?

By you calculations American Indians have the right to claim all of America. Meanwhile Trumps move gives up our most valuable diplomatic bargaining chip for nothing. It's Christmas in Israel and Trump is Santa. Yet another example of Chumps bargaining prowess. Can we expect a Trump Tower in Jerusalem now? It's a pretty good bet that he is getting something for himself in exchange.

 

[KerouacJack]

Gonna be a part of his "great legacy" for The Donald, this selfish decision to "be the one" to recognize Jerusalem...it's more important, as he trolls thru the limits of his power...to find the low-hanging fruit that he can enable merely with his signature.

The destabilization, lives lost, and results be damned! It's more important to put another notch on his golf club.

This is my take too.

This has way more to do with his own ego than helping out israel.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

By you calculations American Indians have the right to claim all of America. Meanwhile Trumps move gives up our most valuable diplomatic bargaining chip for nothing. It's Christmas in Israel and Trump is Santa. Yet another example of Chumps bargaining prowess. Can we expect a Trump Tower in Jerusalem now? It's a pretty good bet that he is getting something for himself in exchange.

LOL. What "bargaining chip" are you talking about.

This is the delusional Obama foreign policy position in a nutshell - that Israel is the intransigent party and is the one who the US needs to squeeze. It is wrong and completely counter productive.

Indeed, this only partly undoes the fundamental damage to US leverage and prospects for peace caused by Obama's betrayal of Israel at the UN as a lame duck, where he had the UN declare that Israel has no right to its holy places. If you are looking for a US action that obliterated the US's "bargaining chips" (the ones it actually needs) and made peace a virtual impossibility, that's what you are looking for.

That you don't see it implies no matter what you say or do if you were in charge you would never be able to design a system to resolve the issue. Because you fundamentally misunderstand the problem.

Comment: Why Trump is right in recognizing Jerusalem as Israel?s capital - Opinion - Jerusalem Post

 

[Cameron]

Trump creating a whole new generation of jihadists. Honestly, he couldn’t do more harm to American foreign interest if he were a Russian plant.

 

[ChezC3]

It seems the world has a surplus of cowards.

Grow the **** up.

If any dare rise up, attack, or take up arms as a result of Trump acknowledging reality?

Annihilate them.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Trump creating a whole new generation of jihadists. Honestly, he couldn’t do more harm to American foreign interest if he were a Russian plant.

LOL. Obama was worse in the ME by every conceivable metric (and worse with the Russians too, which is saying something). Trumps a mess but no one can cause as many problems as Obama in the ME because his entire worldview was wrong.

This is the right move by Trump.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

LOL. What "bargaining chip" are you talking about.

This is the delusional Obama foreign policy position in a nutshell - that Israel is the intransigent party and is the one who the US needs to squeeze. It is wrong and completely counter productive.

Indeed, this only partly undoes the fundamental damage to US leverage and prospects for peace caused by Obama's betrayal of Israel at the UN as a lame duck, where he had the UN declare that Israel has no right to its holy places. If you are looking for a US action that obliterated the US's "bargaining chips" (the ones it actually needs) and made peace a virtual impossibility, that's what you are looking for.

That you don't see it implies no matter what you say or do if you were in charge you would never be able to design a system to resolve the issue. Because you fundamentally misunderstand the problem.

Comment: Why Trump is right in recognizing Jerusalem as Israel?s capital - Opinion - Jerusalem Post

LOL It was not just Obama's policy but he policy of the U.S. for 70 years.
So it is your opinion that Israel should dictate the terms of any settlement with no sacrifices or compromises on their part? As long as that is true there will never be peace and You and Trump are guaranteeing that sad fact. Trump could have asked Israel to freeze new settlements on Palestinian land at least in return for this "gift". The U.N has had a universal policy since WWII that says land seized by military action is not legal and the lands are merely"occupied" by the aggressor. You disagree with that policy? Do you believe that American Indians have a legal right to all the land that was taken from them? Their historic homeland was taken from them too.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Yep, and there were people living there long before King David showed up. Israel has always used religion to justify expansion. Considering the fact that there was an Israel before King David sacked the city and made it the new capital, to argue that Judaism was "born" there seems rather odd. It was where the Jews set up their various major religious facilities, but if you trust the Okd Testament as any sort of source the Jews were pissing off God about something or other about every other week, so.....

The fact remains that nobody was complaining about the way the Jordanians were running things; liberation thus is not really the right term.

The fact remains that the land was liberated, that the Jordanians had no relation to that piece of land and that this is all that matters. Bringing up religion is irrelevant, the right is an historical one. The people who were there before Judea became the homeland of the Jews (that's where the name comes from in case you've been wondering, like the Japanese and Japan), were not a people in the national sense but a bunch of tribes that don't exist today.

 

[Mycroft]

‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Ahead of Trump's pronouncement, close U.S. allies such as Britain, France and Germany had criticized him and questioned the wisdom of such a move. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said Tuesday that the pursuit of such policies by the Trump administration is why traditional U.S.-European ties have started to “crumble.”

“We all know the far-reaching impact this move would have,” Gabriel said. “Germany’s position on this issue remains unchanged: A solution to the Jerusalem problem can only be found through direct negotiations between both parties. Everything which worsens the crisis is counterproductive.”

In Russia, the Kremlin also joined the list of nations fearing that such a move will exacerbate tensions between Israel and Palestinians, saying that the situation could worsen as a result. It was one of the few times a Kremlin foreign policy goal has converged with that of most NATO member states.Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said the U.S. plan is “unlawful” and could have “irreversible consequences” in the region.

So, looks like Trump managed to unite the whole damn world against us this time.

I can't think of anything more likely to cause attacks than recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol or Israel.The only group that will happy with this is religious fanatics - including evangelicals around the world and right wing Israelis. I can't think of any group in the US who benefits by this other than the 'end is nigh' crowd pushing for the 3rd temple. What possible reason could he have for making this decision?

Right now I am betting a reversal will come - because this is ridiculous.

So...instead of continuing to kick the can as all other administrations have done since Congress passed the JERUSALEM EMBASSY ACT OF 1995 ( https://www.congress.gov/104/plaws/publ45/PLAW-104publ45.pdf ) Trump has finally complied with a law...and everyone is pissed off. :roll:

Anyway, Trump has very good reasons for doing this and what our "allies" think really doesn't matter. They'll change their tune when Trump does something that nobody thought could ever be done: Bring peace to the region.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Well, there is something that can increase the probability of an intifada. That is signalling the Palestinians that they are right. That is, what France and Germany did, when they signalled Saddam support in the negotiations concerning inspections and information.

In this case, these allies had plenty of time to negotiate a peace in the Near East. They didn't.

We have watched all sorts of peace deals and peace prizes. But in the last moment Palestinians have every time thrown a monkey wrench in the spokes. Maybe more preasure is better.

But it is Trump, so the topic is not the question. It is Trump.

How can we negotiate a deal if we have nothing left to offer? There will be no deal only more violence and it is all on Trump's ledger.

Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising
As the protests took place, the leader of the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas called for a new "intifada," or uprising, Thursday.
Ismail Haniyeh said in Gaza that Israel's policies supported by the United States "could only be confronted by a renewed intifada against the occupation" and he described the US-Israeli alliance "satanic."
"Palestine will not be divided and the whole of Palestine and the whole of Jerusalem are the property of the Palestinian people," he said.
"It is a declaration of war against our Palestinian people in their holiest of holy places of the Christians and Muslims."
He added that the announcement had left the decades-long peace process "buried forever."

Jerusalem: Protests break out following Trump's decision - CNN

 

[What if...?]

Interesting that Russia just formally acknowledged Jerusalem as Israels capital recently.

Mancrush strikes again!

 

[joG]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

How can we negotiate a deal if we have nothing left to offer? There will be no deal only more violence and it is all on Trump's ledger.

There is plenty to offer.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

LOL It was not just Obama's policy but he policy of the U.S. for 70 years.
So it is your opinion that Israel should dictate the terms of any settlement with no sacrifices or compromises on their part? As long as that is true there will never be peace and You and Trump are guaranteeing that sad fact. Trump could have asked Israel to freeze new settlements on Palestinian land at least in return for this "gift". The U.N has had a universal policy since WWII that says land seized by military action is not legal and the lands are merely"occupied" by the aggressor. You disagree with that policy? Do you believe that American Indians have a legal right to all the land that was taken from them? Their historic homeland was taken from them too.

No, the decision to lobby and then stand by while the UN passed its resolution castigating Israel and declaring all of its holy sites belonged to someone else was all Obama.

There is no gift here and this makes peace more likely, not less. Everything that sought to punish or constrain Israel made peace less likely because the Palestinians are and have always been the obstacle.

 

[celticwar17]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

I'm sure you'd have no problem with a few million more Mexicans coming over the border and taking back the Southwest, because that is exactly what the Zionists did with the Palestinian region. Or do you only get to do that if you have a holy book backing up your claim?

I don't give a crap about holy books... any of them.

As far as I know Jerusalem has been a part of Israel for quite sometime actually....I'm not sure why you want to lie about that fact, do you hate Jews?

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

I don't give a crap about holy books... any of them.

As far as I know Jerusalem has been a part of Israel for quite sometime actually....I'm not sure why you want to lie about that fact, do you hate Jews?

He's also wrong with his comparison as the Palestinian-Arabs were merely citizens of an occupied land managed by a British government when Israel was created while the US is an existing sovereign country with a government of its own.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

He's also wrong with his comparison as the Palestinian-Arabs were merely citizens of an occupied land managed by a British government when Israel was created while the US is an existing sovereign country with a government of its own.

Jerusalem was invaded and taken by Israel in 1967 and was not part of the the creation of Israel. They are the occupiers now.

 

[Oborosen]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Because in his ignorance and arrogance he continues to do incredibly stupid things. There was nothing to gain by this move; and much to lose. In terms of brokering middle-east peace, he has shown himself to have no negotiation skill whatsoever.

So what makes this a bad idea?

We shouldn't even have a hand in any of this, yet the people of the world want us to chime in and then they get all upset when we do.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Jerusalem was invaded and taken by Israel in 1967 and was not part of the the creation of Israel. They are the occupiers now.

Liberated.

 

[American]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

That link doesnt address the points I made. Care to try again?

Did it invite terror when Clinton, Bush or Obama stated it? But now suddenly that Trump is stating it, and now that Israel has stated it, it's going to cause terrorism and mayhem. :roll:

 

[Tigerace117]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

The fact remains that the land was liberated, that the Jordanians had no relation to that piece of land and that this is all that matters. Bringing up religion is irrelevant, the right is an historical one. The people who were there before Judea became the homeland of the Jews (that's where the name comes from in case you've been wondering, like the Japanese and Japan), were not a people in the national sense but a bunch of tribes that don't exist today.

Except the fact remains that no, there was no "liberation" involved, that the Jordanians were not treating the people of the area particularly badly, and that you wanting the land so you took it is what it really comes down to.

And historically, there were people living in the area well before King David showing up. Being able to kill everyone and declare to yourself that "this has always been our land" doesn't necessarily mean anything.

So does that mean China should be allowed to grab everything in the South China Sea? After all, it has the word "China" in its name; that must mean its rightfully Chinese......right?

Yes, being able to totally wipe out the people who were there and then dismissing them as "just as bunch of tribes" and "not a real people" does seem to be winner's prerogative.

 

[Tigerace117]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Lol. Sure. They were just going to help those that wanted to conquor the territory and then stand by and do nothing while those folks did what they wanted.

It was still aggression and still a "war crime" for those keeping track in the "international law" hypocrisy game. And generally helping those who are looking to commit genocide isn't given a pass because you had no intent to participate in the genocide yourself.



Yes. No one is saying the Jordanian reasons for starting that war against Israel were not complex or that the Jordanian leadership isn't more moderate and rational than others in the region.

But they started a war of aggression to help destroy Israel and they lost. They ended up losing territory to Israel and have now officially relinquished that control. So that's the end of it really.



Yes, a war of aggression that was a war crime by any traditional, consistent definition of the term, against another country which did not raise a hand against them and explicitly told them not to attack and they would be left alone.



https://www.timesofisrael.com/rabin...white-house-handshake-letter-from-1994-shows/

Oh no. You mean that the Jordanians were going to go to war and then let their allies do whatever they want? Truly shocking. In no way, shape or form has anything like that every happened before:roll:

Ah, so we are pretending International Law is nothing more than hypocrisy? I guess there has to be some excuse for keeping Gaza bubbling, after all....:roll:

But if International Law is just "hypocrisy" then who cares? The Jordanians weren't going to do anything, and International Law is what formally declares that genocide is bad......so your own "logic" totally undermines your own claims.

Except just like every other minor slight in the area, its not "the end of it". It just keeps bubbling and simmering and what have you until somebody like Trump comes along to dump gasoline on the fire and watch the pretty explosions.

They would be "left alone" until the pressure to just grab the rest of Jerusalem got too heavy, and then it's "sorry pals, but don't ya know that this is ours? Oh, and we just blew up your Air Force."

Yet he was willing to negotiate. His positions weren't carved in stone--- and that's what got him murdered.