Who won the Veep Debate tonight? [W:47]

[j-mac]

I didn't find it unprofessional, rather he found Ryan's lies laughable. Which they were.

Well, I hope for one that Obama doubles down on Biden's boorish behavior. Day by day, hard left liberals are showing exactly who they are.

 

[haymarket]

We found out two things

1- Biden won by being aggressive and persistent
2- many on the right do not have the basic honesty of many Obama supporters who could declare that their many lost last week

 

[haymarket]

And it doesn't disgust you that the VP of the US doesn't even understand how to act professional? You can't call everyone who disagrees with you a liar.

The right wing game of three card montie designed to get middle class people to vote against themselves should be mocked and ridiculed for what it is. That is extremely professional.

The right wants a polite milktoast politician to take them on since it gives them a sheen of respectability. Forget that. Treat them like the clowns they are whose whacko ideas do not deserve proper respect and consideration and TELL THEM THAT.

 

[poweRob]

Well, I hope for one that Obama doubles down on Biden's boorish behavior. Day by day, hard left liberals are showing exactly who they are.

I hope Obama does too. I hope like hell he takes Romney head on and doesn't let Romney filibuster a bunch of lies like he did last time and actually makes him back up his bull**** or counters it outright. If the GOP wants this too then it's fine by me that they want to enter election day wanting to lead the strongest country in the world while crying about being picked on by the big bad Obama/Biden bully.

 

[Chaddelamancha]

Well, I hope for one that Obama doubles down on Biden's boorish behavior. Day by day, hard left liberals are showing exactly who they are.

I would wager that they would rather be called boorish instead of liars, which apparently Team Romney doesn't mind being called.

 

[mac]

He is ultimately responsible for them, that is true. But again -- let's get real. No president directly oversees regional intelligence gathering services.

The attacks on Obama have just become Kafkaesque.

Despite there having been two previous attacks on the very same consulate? Come on, really? He's not paying attention to that?

 

[Jredbaron96]

Am I now supposed to believe that the State Dept. knew all along that it was a terror attack on 9/11, and the administration didn't? Then tell me, why were they in congress on 9/12 classifying it as a terror attack, while telling the American people it wasn't?

Well, j-mac, when I get promoted to a public office that will grant me the information you are looking for, you'll be the first one I'll tell.

 

[shiang]

And it doesn't disgust you that the VP of the US doesn't even understand how to act professional? You can't call everyone who disagrees with you a liar.

There's a difference between disagree and lying. As for maners, Biden could've been politer but some of Ryan's lies were indeed outrageous. Between bad manners and lying I'd pick bad manners.

 

[Jredbaron96]

to my knowledge, that has never been the argument (which makes perfect sense, sicne Obama's MO for the last 5 years has been to misrepresent his opponents' positions and then demolish those strawmen). What is the argument is that these reductions in top-line growth will be accomplished by driving a further wedge between the market price of services and the compensation levels that will be paid by the government for those services. As a result of this basic supply and demand reality (which you see every time a doctor says they are no longer accepting additional medicare patients), over tiem fewer doctors are going to be willing to provide as much service to medicare patients. Some may drop out of that service entirely while others may scale it back and divert their time to higher-return work (in what's left of the private market). Facilities that are particularly dependent on medicare patients may even have a harder time, as their margins are not huge to begin with.

So the end result of these cuts does not take money out of medicare patients' pockets (which zero republicans say that they would do), but instead reduces the extent of care provided to medicare patients through the programme.

Which is absolutely true.

No. Ryan specifically repeated a Romney Talking point, which is he (Obama) cuts Medicare by $716 billion, takes that money out of the Medicare trust fund and uses it to pay for Obamacare.

That statement was rated as half-true by Politifact, and Factchecker.org deemed it misleading. I explained why.

 

[Objective Voice]

Biden won this debate, but only because he played the role of the bulley and wouldn't let Ryan get away with many of the distortions that have been made from the Right. I'd much rather he not come across as so smug, but he took it to Ryan for the most part. And so, he gets the knod for the win. As an aside, Ryan made clear that Romney's foreign policy is a) a rehash of old ideas, i.e., supporting puppet regimes but calling it "spreading democracy"; and, b) a mirror image of current foreign policy measures enacted by the Obama Administration. There's nothing, absolutely nothing, that's different about what he'd do that isn't being done today and Paul Ryan said as much last night.

(For broader details, see post #75 in thread http://www.debatepolitics.com/2012-...foreign-policy-platform-8.html#post1061003833)

 

[Arbo]

In the post you responded to I was talking about the media reaction to the debate. It had nothing to do with lying. :roll:

It was originally in response to: "Stating things that aren't true = lies ... at least when you know or should know that the statements aren't true."

So once again, what lies has the current administration told?

 

[mac]

There's a difference between disagree and lying. As for maners, Biden could've been politer but some of Ryan's lies were indeed outrageous. Between bad manners and lying I'd pick bad manners.

What lie was outrageous?

 

[j-mac]

I hope Obama does too. I hope like hell he takes Romney head on and doesn't let Romney filibuster a bunch of lies like he did last time and actually makes him back up his bull**** or counters it outright. If the GOP wants this too then it's fine by me that they want to enter election day wanting to lead the strongest country in the world while crying about being picked on by the big bad Obama/Biden bully.

I don't believe that America likes that kind of in your face radical liberalism. But they do love a good train wreck.

 

[j-mac]

Well, j-mac, when I get promoted to a public office that will grant me the information you are looking for, you'll be the first one I'll tell.

So you think it holds water that the administration didn't know it was a terror attack? Come on man....No one, not even the liberal press is buying that one.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Who won the VP debate? BLOG: How Paul Ryan won vice presidential debate against Joe Biden

CNN Poll: Debate watchers split on who won VP debate – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

VP Debate Winner: Paul Ryan Wins, Joe Biden is Unprofessional and Did Vote for Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

 

[CJ 2.0]

No. Ryan specifically repeated a Romney Talking point, which is he (Obama) cuts Medicare by $716 billion, takes that money out of the Medicare trust fund and uses it to pay for Obamacare.

That statement was rated as half-true by Politifact, and Factchecker.org deemed it misleading. I explained why.

I dont give a crap what politifact said. Obama reduces the growth trend of Medicare in order to throw those accounting dollars into the obamacare balance. That will have a direct impact on availability of services for Medicare patients.

That you would ignore e substance, try to rely on authority, and just restate the Obama talking point is telling.

 

[shiang]

What lie was outrageous?

Stuff like raising taxes to upper 40%, first off no one is paying over 40% federal tax period even with ending Bush tax cuts. 2nd effective tax rates after deductions is more around lower 20% right now and will probably not even go over 25% average for any bracket, though some people may not take any deductions and pay maximum of slightly under 40%. Throwing around big, completely baseless numbers to scare people.

$700+ Billion dollars take out of medicare, every penny was put back.

Various other things I don't recollect. Ryan agreed 1/4-1/3 of the time, the rest was pretty much all flat out lies that were way beyond the "stretch" limit.

Obama and Biden stretched the truth too obviously, but there's arguments to be made. Obama's 5 Trillion tax cut is the closes thing to a lie. Romney said a few lies about medicare but at least it's part of their platform and I believe some money was temporarily taken out but was put back in once things were sorted out. Again didn't flat out lie over half the time. Ryan probably lied more than all 3 of them combined.

What kills me is people that haven't done the research couldn't tell the difference.

 

[shiang]

I dont give a crap what politifact said. Obama reduces the growth trend of Medicare in order to throw those accounting dollars into the obamacare balance. That will have a direct impact on availability of services for Medicare patients.

That you would ignore e substance, try to rely on authority, and just restate the Obama talking point is telling.

For the last time Obamacare is not paid for by medicare. It is paid for mostly by insurance companies, and potential future penalties and 40% tax on "Cadillac" insurance ($10,200 for an individual or $27,500 for a family that have little or no co-pays).

 

[TurtleDude]

stuff like raising taxes to upper 40%, first off no one is paying over 40% federal tax period even with ending Bush tax cuts. 2nd effective tax rates after deductions is more around lower 20% right now and will probably not even go over 25% average for any bracket, though some people may not take any deductions and pay maximum of slightly under 40%. Throwing around big, completely baseless numbers to scare people.

well if the dems are using MARGINAL rates to claim some middle class people pay higher rates than Romney's then its true, Obama will jack up the marginal rates on those making over 200K to over 40% (39.6% plus the surcharge thru ObamaTaxcare)

 

[ReformCollege]

There's a difference between disagree and lying. As for maners, Biden could've been politer but some of Ryan's lies were indeed outrageous. Between bad manners and lying I'd pick bad manners.

Biden lied when he said that they didn't know about the requests for additional security.

 

[ReformCollege]

Stuff like raising taxes to upper 40%, first off no one is paying over 40% federal tax period even with ending Bush tax cuts. 2nd effective tax rates after deductions is more around lower 20% right now and will probably not even go over 25% average for any bracket, though some people may not take any deductions and pay maximum of slightly under 40%. Throwing around big, completely baseless numbers to scare people.

$700+ Billion dollars take out of medicare, every penny was put back.

Various other things I don't recollect. Ryan agreed 1/4-1/3 of the time, the rest was pretty much all flat out lies that were way beyond the "stretch" limit.

Obama and Biden stretched the truth too obviously, but there's arguments to be made. Obama's 5 Trillion tax cut is the closes thing to a lie. Romney said a few lies about medicare but at least it's part of their platform and I believe some money was temporarily taken out but was put back in once things were sorted out. Again didn't flat out lie over half the time. Ryan probably lied more than all 3 of them combined.

What kills me is people that haven't done the research couldn't tell the difference.

So when a Republican stretches the truth its lying, when a Democrat stretches the truth its "just making an argument?" Hypocrite.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I dont give a crap what politifact said.

You really are living up to "We're not going to have our campaign dictated by fact checkers."

Congratulations good sir.

 

[shiang]

So when a Republican stretches the truth its lying, when a Democrat stretches the truth its "just making an argument?" Hypocrite.

Didn't say that, it matters how much you stretch it. If it breaks and becomes indefensible from any perspective, it's lying. There is a difference between misleading/stretching the truth and flat out lying. Ryan lied a lot more than any of the other 3, this includes Romney.

 

[LizardofOz]

I just watched it today and clearly Biden commanded the debate. However it was still fairly close and both of these guys are sharp as a tac. Did anyone else have the feeling that these guys knew more about what they were talking about though than their bosses or is it just me?

 

[AdamT]

I dont give a crap what politifact said. Obama reduces the growth trend of Medicare in order to throw those accounting dollars into the obamacare balance. That will have a direct impact on availability of services for Medicare patients.

That you would ignore e substance, try to rely on authority, and just restate the Obama talking point is telling.

Q: What difference does it make if the $700 billion is deducted from the Obamacare ledger as opposed to the general ledger, as far as the availability of services for Medicare patients?

A: None.

Both Obama and Romney make the same cuts and they would have the same effect vis a vis Medicare services.