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What Happened?

its disgusting how you guys are unable to stop personalizing these threads.

Damn you can't even say something positive about Thunder without him getting all butt hurt. You sure the hell couldn't work where I work, you'd be crying like a baby.
 
Pinky: Another good place to start would be to listen to the SPD interview tapes that were made between 2/26 and 2/29.. You can click them on in the background and just listen while you do something else.

When you have listened to all six of them, listen to George's "Hannity" interview.

If you have questions about the contradictions, then you could explore the evidence dumps (very time consuming)
 
A week after George Zimmerman rolled out a revamped website, his parents have unveiled their own website, detailing in voluminous detail the upheaval and death threats suffered by three generations of the family after their son, 28, shot and killed Trayvon Martin, 17, on Feb. 26.

The younger Zimmerman's website, therealgeorgezimmerman.com, is an open appeal for donations to help pay for his legal fees, security and living expenses, and a forum to try to offer an unfiltered account of who George Zimmerman is.

George Zimmerman Parents' New Website Decries Threats, Says Son Is No Racist - ABC News

The parents' site, called robertandgladys.com aims to counter the way their son has been "savagely portrayed in the media," and has a tab asking for contributions to their "greatly increased living expenses."

What follows is a painstaking detailed history of the family -- from Robert and Gladys Zimmerman's courtship in the late 1970s to the frenzied days after the shooting.

You can also look at this site. George's parents go into a lengthy family history and ask for money.

Robert & Gladys | My Personal Web Site
 
A week after George Zimmerman rolled out a revamped website, his parents have unveiled their own website, detailing in voluminous detail the upheaval and death threats suffered by three generations of the family after their son, 28, shot and killed Trayvon Martin, 17, on Feb. 26.

The younger Zimmerman's website, therealgeorgezimmerman.com, is an open appeal for donations to help pay for his legal fees, security and living expenses, and a forum to try to offer an unfiltered account of who George Zimmerman is.

George Zimmerman Parents' New Website Decries Threats, Says Son Is No Racist - ABC News

The parents' site, called robertandgladys.com aims to counter the way their son has been "savagely portrayed in the media," and has a tab asking for contributions to their "greatly increased living expenses."

What follows is a painstaking detailed history of the family -- from Robert and Gladys Zimmerman's courtship in the late 1970s to the frenzied days after the shooting.

You can also look at this site. George's parents go into a lengthy family history and ask for money.

Robert & Gladys | My Personal Web Site

I don't fault the Zimmerman family for this. Of course, I don't think George Zimmerman is an evil person. Justice in this country is very often denied to people because they simply run out of money. They are forced into a plea bargain whether guilty or not because they and/or their family have been financially ruined. And, certainly, in Zimmerman's case, it's not hard to imagine that that's the case.

We had all better hope that we are never targets of the state's criminal justice system. They have millions to throw at our prosecution and nothing personal to lose. If we have "anything," we have to spend it all before we get assistance. Financial ruin isn't a small thing.

My BFF personally knew a man in our neighborhood who was accused by his BFF's daughter of inappropriate conduct. He was 35 years old, he and his wife were visiting the family, and the 16-year-old daughter of his friend wanted to show him something on her computer. He went into her room, and 15 minutes later, the fit hit the shan. She accused him of touching her. His friend called the police, he was arrested for sexual assault (or whatever). His wife trusted him implicitly and didn't believe it. He swore all the while that he was innocent.

He lost his job. (She was a stay-at-home mom.) They lost their house. And, after throwing more than $100K toward his legal defense, his wife left him and filed for divorce. He soon pled guilty to a lesser charge and received probation. He will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life.

My BFF knew the family personally and found it impossible that he would have done this. I relate this story only because I have to say that I rather hope he did it, because his life was ruined.

Justice doesn't come cheap.
 
Frank Taffe is pivotal in the shooting death of Trayvon after he allegedly attacked Zimm? How is that?

He's George's best friend and neighbor.. a hostile witness for the prosecution.. He went on national media and said George was fed up and had anger issues.
 
A 6' 2" young man violently attacked someone alone at night in the dark, attempting to beat that man unconscious or to kill him. Fortunately, the man has a handgun he was carrying legally having a concealed handgun permit and fired one shot stopping the assailant from continuing.

Because the attacker was black and the victim looks white, national Democrats and the Democratic media decided to use the incident for race baiting to attempt to restore enthusiasm in the African American community in the swing state where this occurred - Florida.

President Obama then personally joined in, declaring that the black teen shot was his surrogate son, national Democrats declared this was a race-hate-crime and civil rights violation, and president Obama sent in the DOJ. To offset the Democrats calling Florida Republicans bigots as the 2012 campaign issue, Republican state officials took authority from all local officials, vetoed the local police, DA and grand jury system, having the assault victim arrested on an since-admitted false affidavit. He is now on trial charged by the government with murder.
 
Okay, I have done some reading -- though clearly not as much as those of you who replied. First, thank you for the replies. It was kind of you and I appreciate it that no one ridiculed me for being out of touch with national news.

I find this "stand your ground" rule very disturbing, but as I understand it, it's not clear to me that Zimmerman was guilty. Morally I think he was because the situation so easily could have been avoided. But legally it's less clear because of this strange law -- which evidently many states now have.

Any thoughts? Seems to me that the average citizen does not need such a law and it should be repealed.
 
Okay, I have done some reading -- though clearly not as much as those of you who replied. First, thank you for the replies. It was kind of you and I appreciate it that no one ridiculed me for being out of touch with national news.

I find this "stand your ground" rule very disturbing, but as I understand it, it's not clear to me that Zimmerman was guilty. Morally I think he was because the situation so easily could have been avoided. But legally it's less clear because of this strange law -- which evidently many states now have.

Any thoughts? Seems to me that the average citizen does not need such a law and it should be repealed.

The SYG laws are extensions of Castle Laws...expanding them off one's property to anywhere. One of the bright spots of this law is that, if one is found innocent under SYG, he cannot be held civilly liable. We've all heard the stories of the guy who shoots an intruder and his family sues his ass using the argument that, "Well, you didn't have to shoot him. You could have run out the back door." Seems to me, though, that SYG may have gone off the rails. Thirty-one states have some version of it, though.
 
The SYG laws are extensions of Castle Laws...expanding them off one's property to anywhere. One of the bright spots of this law is that, if one is found innocent under SYG, he cannot be held civilly liable. We've all heard the stories of the guy who shoots an intruder and his family sues his ass using the argument that, "Well, you didn't have to shoot him. You could have run out the back door." Seems to me, though, that SYG may have gone off the rails. Thirty-one states have some version of it, though.

You might want to check out the conversation in Volusia County about SYG.. Its being used to exonerate rival drugs gangs who shoot each other.

You might also check the comments of the authors of SYG who said that it didn't apply to GZ and that he should be arrested.
 
You might want to check out the conversation in Volusia County about SYG.. Its being used to exonerate rival drugs gangs who shoot each other.

You might also check the comments of the authors of SYG who said that it didn't apply to GZ and that he should be arrested.

I don't think SYG should apply to Zimmerman. He put himself in that position. That's not what the law was designed for. If Martin had killed Zimmerman? Depending on the story he told and what evidence could contradict it? I think he could have applied it.

If the SYG law can be applied to people with "unclean hands," that's just plain stupid.
 
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You might want to check out the conversation in Volusia County about SYG.. Its being used to exonerate rival drugs gangs who shoot each other.

You might also check the comments of the authors of SYG who said that it didn't apply to GZ and that he should be arrested.

I don't see stand your ground laws as an extension of the castle doctrine. There's 2,000 years of case law on when and when not a homicide or assault is excusable under the castle doctrine, and there's some logic that one should not have to flee their own home to avoid being injured or killed. Why does a private citizen need more legal deadly force rights than a police officer gets?
 
You might want to check out the conversation in Volusia County about SYG.. Its being used to exonerate rival drugs gangs who shoot each other.

You might also check the comments of the authors of SYG who said that it didn't apply to GZ and that he should be arrested.


I'm ok with rival drug gang members shooting each other.
 
Why does a private citizen need more legal deadly force rights than a police officer gets?

I agree with this. Whenever there is an officer-involved shooting, there is a complete (and I assume) thorough investigation of the incident. When a guy shoots somebody because he's losing a fight? I think the SYG Laws are used too quickly exonerate them. When one human being shoots/kills another, I think there should always be a type of Grand Jury convened and let the people decide if SYG applies. Not an officer on the beat. Not a homocide detective.
 
A 6' 2" young man violently attacked someone alone at night in the dark, attempting to beat that man unconscious or to kill him....

that man stalked him in a car and on foot.

he then refused to tell him why he was following him.

he then reached into his pocket.

Florida has LOTS of gun-owners, and Martin reasaobly feared that the strange man who was stalking him, was reaching for a weapon.

turns out..he indeed had a deadly weapon in his possession, and used it to kill Martin.
 
SYG doesn't only apply to guns and deadly force.

Here's an example...

You're sitting at a bar and some bully comes up and says "That' my chair, get out of it or I'll beat the crap out of you." In some states, you have to give up the chair under a "duty to retreat." If not, and a fight occurs, you then are equally guilty of assault. In stand your ground states you do not.

While the GZ case isn't really SYG (rather it is "self defense), the SYG is very relevant and decisive in many situations. Without SYG, the law then is duty to flee from everyone and to surrender everywhere and everything.

With SYG, if a person goes looking to start trouble they may find it in ways unexpected. Without SYG, if a person wants to start conflict the law says that person should win by his/her aggressiveness when must be surrendered to and fled from.

There will also be extreme examples of misapplication of any law.

I think that is the distinctive mindset difference between GZ and TM. GZ wanted to be a crime fighter - but also clearly did NOT want any direct confrontation with TM. TM wanted direct confrontation. In short, GZ's goal was stopping crime. TM's goal was to start s...t with another person he found annoying. TM went looking for face to face trouble. He miscalculated.

SYG has a HUGE impact on how people, particularly women, can deal with potential danger. Other than try to run away there's not much a woman can do in states without SYG until she is literally under assault and by then there usually isn't much she can do. In an SYG state she does not have to wait until under actual assault to take action.
 
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I don't see stand your ground laws as an extension of the castle doctrine. There's 2,000 years of case law on when and when not a homicide or assault is excusable under the castle doctrine, and there's some logic that one should not have to flee their own home to avoid being injured or killed. Why does a private citizen need more legal deadly force rights than a police officer gets?

I have NO problem with Castle Doctrine... and would shoot or kill anyone who invaded my home.

Your point is that if a police officer shoots someone, he is suspended while the event is investigated.

Police officers are accountable for every round that they fire.
 
You would fight and shoot someone over a barstool?

Long time ago.. I was in jury duty and they had a break for lunch.. I ran into a boy who was in my children's circle.. I asked him, Why are you here.. He said he'd clobbered some guy with a beer bottle. I asked him WHY.. He said "because he insulted me"...

He never came to my home again.. I don't care much for fools.

SYG doesn't only apply to guns and deadly force.

Here's an example...

You're sitting at a bar and some bully comes up and says "That' my chair, get out of it or I'll beat the crap out of you." In some states, you have to give up the chair under a "duty to retreat." If not, and a fight occurs, you then are equally guilty of assault. In stand your ground states you do not.

While the GZ case isn't really SYG (rather it is "self defense), the SYG is very relevant and decisive in many situations. Without SYG, the law then is duty to flee from everyone and to surrender everywhere and everything.

With SYG, if a person goes looking to start trouble they may find it in ways unexpected. Without SYG, if a person wants to start conflict the law says that person should win by his/her aggressiveness when must be surrendered to and fled from.

There will also be extreme examples of misapplication of any law.

I think that is the distinctive mindset difference between GZ and TM. GZ wanted to be a crime fighter - but also clearly did NOT want any direct confrontation with TM. TM wanted direct confrontation. In short, GZ's goal was stopping crime. TM's goal was to start s...t with another person he found annoying. TM went looking for face to face trouble. He miscalculated.

SYG has a HUGE impact on how people, particularly women, can deal with potential danger. Other than try to run away there's not much a woman can do in states without SYG until she is literally under assault and by then there usually isn't much she can do. In an SYG state she does not have to wait until under actual assault to take action.
 
Here's the problem: we also have a neighborhood watch in my neighborhood, and a rising crime rate. It's not hard for me to imagine that some of my neighbors are concerned enough to walk a beat, and do so armed. (We've had burglaries in the homes of senior citizens, though thank God so far, no one has been hurt.) It's not hard for me to imagine that a person of color would be suspected here, as this is still a predominately white neighborhood. It's not hard for me to imagine a young person (of any color) being asked by a private citizen to explain what they're doing in this neighborhood -- hell, even I would be offended and refuse to answer.

In short, "stand your ground" seems to bless vigilanism on steroids and IMO, it should be repealed.
 
SYG doesn't only apply to guns and deadly force.

Here's an example...

You're sitting at a bar and some bully comes up and says "That' my chair, get out of it or I'll beat the crap out of you." In some states, you have to give up the chair under a "duty to retreat." If not, and a fight occurs, you then are equally guilty of assault. In stand your ground states you do not.

While the GZ case isn't really SYG (rather it is "self defense), the SYG is very relevant and decisive in many situations. Without SYG, the law then is duty to flee from everyone and to surrender everywhere and everything.

With SYG, if a person goes looking to start trouble they may find it in ways unexpected. Without SYG, if a person wants to start conflict the law says that person should win by his/her aggressiveness when must be surrendered to and fled from.

There will also be extreme examples of misapplication of any law.

I think that is the distinctive mindset difference between GZ and TM. GZ wanted to be a crime fighter - but also clearly did NOT want any direct confrontation with TM. TM wanted direct confrontation. In short, GZ's goal was stopping crime. TM's goal was to start s...t with another person he found annoying. TM went looking for face to face trouble. He miscalculated.

SYG has a HUGE impact on how people, particularly women, can deal with potential danger. Other than try to run away there's not much a woman can do in states without SYG until she is literally under assault and by then there usually isn't much she can do. In an SYG state she does not have to wait until under actual assault to take action.

I think that the self-defense laws we had on the books before SYG probably covered those other issues just as well. In our country, I would hope, it will never be legal for someone to pull out a gun and shoot someone because they slapped them in the face or punched them in the nose. Our self-defense laws protect the "assailant" in many different ways already. And the Castle Laws protect someone a bit more in their own homes. I think that's because if someone invades your home or attacks you in your home, you are acting as a reasonable person if you automatically believe your life is in danger.

We've done without SYG Laws (such as written in the state of Florida) for a couple hundred years. The only thing about this law I do like is that it exempts one from civil liability. And we didn't need a whole new law with greater latitude in order to do this. Our legislators just can't stand having nothing to do -- that's why we keep having more and more and more new laws to encumber us. And screw up the system.

If we didn't have SYG Laws, people who acted in self-defense would still be protected. Again, they have been for a couple hundred years. This could have been handled, in my opinion, by just adding to the SD laws we already have something that says, like: If you are involved in a righteous use of force, you cannot be held civilly responsible. That would have handled the only benefit I see to this law.
 
It also is very important to understand some odd natures of Florida law. For example, Florida WANTS - even DEMANDS - you shoot the other person.

If someone legitimately is causing you to reasonably fear imminent severe injury, if it takes shooting the person to end that danger you/a woman/ whoever may legally shoot that person. BUT if in that exact situation you fired a shot into the air to warn the person, then you are GUILTY of a crime - regardless of why you fired - and MUST serve exactly a TWENTY YEAR sentence.

Thus, it was legal to shoot and kill the person, but 20 years in prison if instead you fired a shot to scare the person off.

There is much NOT told about this case because no one dare say it - though it is truth. Throughout this region (Central Florida), police and public attitudes are very clearly in favor of killing criminals. If some stranger attacked you alone at night, most police would tell you (privately) "we want you to kill the bastard." They openly WANT burglars shot and killed. That is also the social mindset.

Most folks around here do NOT want the Miami, Lauderdale etc standards where property crimes are considered trivial irrelevancies to become the standard here. They do NOT want Southern Florida criminals to act around here as they may there. In Miami, car theft isn't hardly worth call the police about. But it is a major felony around here. Same for burglary. Theft and burglary is so common in S. Florida that it is barely treated as a crime. Yet stealing a 6 pack of beer from someone's garage around here is 6 years prison time.

Now, for politics, to be correct, etc those well engrained social norms and community standards of this region is ignored as if it didn't exist and n many discuss the case for the attitudes of the politically correct rich urban folks. Thus you come up with such as Sharon posting she wouldn't do anything of someone stealing her laptop, but would shoot someone climbing thru her window. Yet to many people, their laptop is the second most valuable item they own after her/his car and they do not have funds to buy another.

Thus, in Sharon's view that TM might have been stalking out some place to burglarize is so trivial anyway as to have meant GZ was a nutcase to even call non-emergency 911. Unless someone is being assaulted there is no reason to bother the police and its none of anyone else's business anyway.

Whether a person can use deadly force to stop theft of your property is a different, but related topic.

Maybe that would be a good poll question. If someone ran up and grabbed your purse and laptop and was running off, do you think you should have a right to shoot that person if that is the only way to stop losing your purse and laptop? Or by virtue of being a faster runner they get to have your purse and laptop?
 
Another kick in the face for self-defense.
 
I think that the self-defense laws we had on the books before SYG probably covered those other issues just as well. In our country, I would hope, it will never be legal for someone to pull out a gun and shoot someone because they slapped them in the face or punched them in the nose. Our self-defense laws protect the "assailant" in many different ways already. And the Castle Laws protect someone a bit more in their own homes. I think that's because if someone invades your home or attacks you in your home, you are acting as a reasonable person if you automatically believe your life is in danger.

We've done without SYG Laws (such as written in the state of Florida) for a couple hundred years. The only thing about this law I do like is that it exempts one from civil liability. And we didn't need a whole new law with greater latitude in order to do this. Our legislators just can't stand having nothing to do -- that's why we keep having more and more and more new laws to encumber us. And screw up the system.

If we didn't have SYG Laws, people who acted in self-defense would still be protected. Again, they have been for a couple hundred years. This could have been handled, in my opinion, by just adding to the SD laws we already have something that says, like: If you are involved in a righteous use of force, you cannot be held civilly responsible. That would have handled the only benefit I see to this law.


I understand. However, over the last couple hundred years legalities in other regards changed. I think SYG was passed to deal with that evolution. Remember, it used to be legal to shoot trespassers if a no-trespassing sign posted. No one would question shooting a burglar fleeing with your property. No one questioned your right to SYG in the past.

The essential and problematical question in any law about the right to use force and deadly for is the "reasonableness" language. What would a "reasonable person" do in the situation? Since that is almost entirely subjective, there is no law that can really cover everything potential precisely.

- - - -

Where my attitudes probably differ from most is my sense of the "looking for trouble" person ethics I see some of this as. If a person goes looking for trouble (in the sense of starting conflict with someone else), I don't think that person has a complaint if they find trouble nor is the other person obligated to limit to the standards the troublemakers wanted. So if two people both want to fight, then its "just a fight." But if not, the one who did NOT start the violent conflict is NOT limited to the fight standards the troublemaker wanted.

So, as a real example, if someone came up to you in a parking lot asking for money, you say no, and the person did slap you shouting "cheap bitch" or such at you, if your instant response was to sling out a handgun and shoot that person I'm entirely ok with that. You don't have to wait to see if that person continues to assault you, wait until you are so beaten down that then and only then may you try to get to your weapon etc.

So... in my "ethical" view of it, IF TM approached GZ and IF TM did slam GZ in the face and IF TM then continued to hit, slam, shove etc GZ - noting they were 2 strangers, it at night, and they alone? I have no problem whatsoever with GZ shooting TM. GZ was not required to limit his actions to those of the assailant.

Florida law does have the requirement of reasonably fearing imminent serious physical injury, so it is more restrictive than my ethics. The solution is for people to not go start a violent conflict with someone else. Then no one gets hurt, do they? But I do think a totally innocent (as in not doing violence) person has to take any risks against a stranger assailant. If one bad luck punch, hit or kick by an assailant can permanently cripple or disable a person for life, even if not intending to do so. The innocent (non-violent) person doesn't have to allow that risk to continue.
 
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Another kick in the face for self-defense.



What I think this case has done is added to already near total apathy people have about the safety and welfare of other people and their property.

They only truly certain legal thing to do in relation to other people and their property is nothing. You can legally watch someone beaten to death, robbed or their property stolen. If you do something? Well, then you can come under legal attack. I had a great deal of legal counseling about the legalities of violence. And the words to use about it if necessary too.

What doesn't work in real terms in my view is when the government tries to review and evaluation in microscopic detail what happened in a violent conflict applying perfection and correctness standards to it. That's not how human nature works and I think it has had negative effects on society.

They used to hang horse thieves. Now? Steal a person's "horse" (car) and it no big deal - probably no-jail probation and 250 hours of community service almost like a joke - though the lose of the car might have cost the person her/his job and then eviction from home.
 
I don't see stand your ground laws as an extension of the castle doctrine. There's 2,000 years of case law on when and when not a homicide or assault is excusable under the castle doctrine, and there's some logic that one should not have to flee their own home to avoid being injured or killed. Why does a private citizen need more legal deadly force rights than a police officer gets?


Police have more force and deadly force rights than others. I think most people know that.
 
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