Trump Ordered To Pay $364 Million In Civil Fraud Case As Judge Finds Ex-President Knowingly Committed Fraud

[hooligan]

It doesn't matter. James and Engoron have claimed that Trump committed fraud whether there was a victim or not.

So Stewart should be indicted at the very least. But James won't do it, because her only motivation for invoking this interpretation of established law is to Get Trump.

What fraud do you propose that Stewart engaged in? Be specific.

You still haven't answered how overvaluing a piece of property in NY results in lower taxes. Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[Ouroboros]

This is awesome, so laughable awesome. It's a great way to brilliantly exemplify not knowing the difference between valuations of property, and what actually happened in the Trump case.

Nope. It's an indictment of the failure of Democrats to walk the walk they require of their political enemies.

 

[hooligan]

Nope. It's an indictment of the failure of Democrats to walk the walk they require of their political enemies.

Which of these sorts of acts did Stewart engage in? Should be easy.


Trump Tower Triplex
Actual square footage: 10,000 sq ft
Claimed square footage: 30,000 sq ft
Overvaluation on SCFs: $114 million to $207 million
After Forbes outed him for lying about the size of the apartment, in 2017 he reduced the amount on future SFCs to 10,000 square feet with a value of $116 million.
Excuse: Determinations of square footage are "subjective."
Fraud: 100-200%

Seven Springs
Assessments by entities hired by Trump Org valued it around $30 million to $50 million.
Trump Org claimed on SFCs it was worth $260 million to $290 million.
Fraud: 480%

Trump Park Avenue
12 rent-stabilized units assessed at $750,000 total in 2010. Note, rent stabilization lowers the value, because by law the owner basically can't raise the rent. It's very difficult, by the way, to remove rent stabilization in NY; the rent stabilization can even be inherited by one's children.
A second assessment in 2020 valued the building at $22 million.
TO treated the value of these units as though they were not rent stabilized. They overvalued the building by 700% in 2010, and 64% in 2020.
Excuse: "The rent-stabilized units have the potential at some point in the future to be converted into unencumbered units." (Note: SCFs required current value, not a theoretical future value based on different conditions.)
Fraud: 64% to 700%, depending on the year

40 Wall Street
TO has the ground lease to this building.
Appraised by Cushman & Wakefield in 2011 at $220 million; TO claimed on SCFs that it was worth $527 million.
Appraised in 2015 at $540 million; TO claimed on SCFs it was worth $735 million.
Fraud: 35% to 100%

Mar-A-Lago
MAL is a historic site, meaning that it basically needs to be permanently maintained in its current state. E.g. it can't be knocked down, only employees are supposed to reside there etc.
Palm Beach County assessor valued it at $18 million (2011) to $27 million (2021).
TO valued it at $426 million (2011) and then $612 million (2021) -- a 2,300% overstatement. Also far beyond residential comps (let alone highly restricted commercial, which is lower).
Excuse: They claimed they could just ignore the restrictions. See above re: current/hypotheticals.
Fraud: 2,300%

Aberdeen Golf Course
TO got permission to build 1,486 rental units on the site. They later reduced this to 500 units.
TO claimed in SFCs that it had approval to build 2,500 homes, and used that to create an inflated value on the SFCs.
Fraud: 100-300%

More Golf
TO simultaneously claimed that the Trump brand increased the value of 7 golf courses by 15-30%, while denying they applied a brand premium.
Fraud: 15-30%

More Golf: Briarcliff
Appraised at $14 million.
TO listed it as $74 million in SCFs.
Excuse: TO claimed they could value it based on what it cost to purchase and maintain the property, not fair market value.
Fraud: 428%

Membership Liabilities
When he bought some golf courses, he assumed millions in liabilities for membership deposits. TO listed the liabilities as $0.

Vornado
TO has a 30% stake in Vornado, but he can't use or withdraw funds. Despite this, TO listed it as a liquid/cash asset.

Licensing Deals
TO fraudulently included intra-organizational deals as assets.
Fraud: $100 million - $200 million per year.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Nope. It's an indictment of the failure of Democrats to walk the walk they require of their political enemies.

Umm, no. It's the ineptitude of those who reported to note the actual differences between what Trump was found liable for, and what they've revealed about Jon Stewart. I imagine it's because they're assuming their readers won't know the difference either and parrot the same failed talking points. This is great entertainment.

 

[Ouroboros]

Yes he can appeal it but in these kinds of cases a successful appeal would require an error of law. That means ONLY the amount can be appealed. The finding of inconsistent valuing is a fact. So the misrepresentation with inconsistent values can not be undone. Trump's defense to that was everyone engages in inconsistent value statements. That defense is not valid and actually its just not true. The discrepancy in how governments when they determine tax, insurance companies or mortgage lenders when they determine the value of property and fair market value can not vary as Trump had them vary. Its not how it works. The formulas for how each of those entities may determine value (other than fair market value) allows variation but not at the extremes Trump engaged in and so the formulas used by Trump's accountants were carefully documented as being done improperly. You can't as Trump argued claim the formulas are what ever you feel you should make them based on your individual self interests not an accountable formula everyone must follow the same way.

Next fair market value is not based simply on what the seller says as Trump argued. Its based on demand and value in comparison to other similar properties so in fact the buyer really has the final word and if Trump wants to argue he feels his properties are worth billions when they are not, that issue is called puffery and it actually is immaterial. What Trump feels is not the issue and never was and he turns every issue into a subjective feeling of his that he feels can not be questioned.

By lowering the bond requirement for appeal, the Judge took away any ability to appeal further on the amount of bond issue. In regards to the amount itself you refer to, its actually far lower than what the Judge could have found again preventing an appeal that the amount is too high. On this one Trump can keep trying to appeal but its like quicksand, the more he protests., the more the law prevents him from making certain arguments as the price for being able to appeal.

What you really see is Trump engaged in the tactic of trying to stall all proceedings and adverse findings against him before the election so he can run. Then he hopes at 78 when he is no longer President at 82, he can grant himself immunity once he is leaving office;. He also believes once he is President again all proceedings must be adjourned/.

So his agenda could not be any clearer. What is interesting is for a guy who claims he is worth 5 billion he sells shoes, Bibles and just yesterday pulled the same television evangelist plea we expect of all television evangelists. His followers will send him money not even giving thought to why they are if he is so rich.


So it is both tragic and pathetic and one would hope Trump devotees put down the koolaid and snap out of it.


Regards

Puffy Diddler

Engoron's agenda is equally clear. If he knows the law as much as his adherents claim he does, then he knew that the astronomical bond might be shot down on appeal.

Why impose it then, if you know it's going to be reduced? In order to goose the TDS mania of the Mad Lib base. If I bothered to look, I'm sure I will find, on this forum alone, any number of slavish Libs filled to the brim with schadenfreude, full of a borrowed sense of accomplishment for Engoron holding Trump's feet to the fire.

So Engoron "overvalued" the bond, deceiving the American public. Too bad judges won't be held accountable for their fraudulent representations.

 

[Ouroboros]

What fraud do you propose that Stewart engaged in? Be specific.

You still haven't answered how overvaluing a piece of property in NY results in lower taxes. Enquiring minds want to know!

So you didn't understand when the corrupt Mad Libs claimed that the crime didn't have to have a victim to be a crime? Maybe you didn't read them, just listened to CNN? It's their arguments that make Jon Stewart a criminal, not those of Trump's defenders.

 

[Ouroboros]

Which of these sorts of acts did Stewart engage in? Should be easy.


Trump Tower Triplex
Actual square footage: 10,000 sq ft
Claimed square footage: 30,000 sq ft
Overvaluation on SCFs: $114 million to $207 million
After Forbes outed him for lying about the size of the apartment, in 2017 he reduced the amount on future SFCs to 10,000 square feet with a value of $116 million.
Excuse: Determinations of square footage are "subjective."
Fraud: 100-200%

Seven Springs
Assessments by entities hired by Trump Org valued it around $30 million to $50 million.
Trump Org claimed on SFCs it was worth $260 million to $290 million.
Fraud: 480%

Trump Park Avenue
12 rent-stabilized units assessed at $750,000 total in 2010. Note, rent stabilization lowers the value, because by law the owner basically can't raise the rent. It's very difficult, by the way, to remove rent stabilization in NY; the rent stabilization can even be inherited by one's children.
A second assessment in 2020 valued the building at $22 million.
TO treated the value of these units as though they were not rent stabilized. They overvalued the building by 700% in 2010, and 64% in 2020.
Excuse: "The rent-stabilized units have the potential at some point in the future to be converted into unencumbered units." (Note: SCFs required current value, not a theoretical future value based on different conditions.)
Fraud: 64% to 700%, depending on the year

40 Wall Street
TO has the ground lease to this building.
Appraised by Cushman & Wakefield in 2011 at $220 million; TO claimed on SCFs that it was worth $527 million.
Appraised in 2015 at $540 million; TO claimed on SCFs it was worth $735 million.
Fraud: 35% to 100%

Mar-A-Lago
MAL is a historic site, meaning that it basically needs to be permanently maintained in its current state. E.g. it can't be knocked down, only employees are supposed to reside there etc.
Palm Beach County assessor valued it at $18 million (2011) to $27 million (2021).
TO valued it at $426 million (2011) and then $612 million (2021) -- a 2,300% overstatement. Also far beyond residential comps (let alone highly restricted commercial, which is lower).
Excuse: They claimed they could just ignore the restrictions. See above re: current/hypotheticals.
Fraud: 2,300%

Aberdeen Golf Course
TO got permission to build 1,486 rental units on the site. They later reduced this to 500 units.
TO claimed in SFCs that it had approval to build 2,500 homes, and used that to create an inflated value on the SFCs.
Fraud: 100-300%

More Golf
TO simultaneously claimed that the Trump brand increased the value of 7 golf courses by 15-30%, while denying they applied a brand premium.
Fraud: 15-30%

More Golf: Briarcliff
Appraised at $14 million.
TO listed it as $74 million in SCFs.
Excuse: TO claimed they could value it based on what it cost to purchase and maintain the property, not fair market value.
Fraud: 428%

Membership Liabilities
When he bought some golf courses, he assumed millions in liabilities for membership deposits. TO listed the liabilities as $0.

Vornado
TO has a 30% stake in Vornado, but he can't use or withdraw funds. Despite this, TO listed it as a liquid/cash asset.

Licensing Deals
TO fraudulently included intra-organizational deals as assets.
Fraud: $100 million - $200 million per year.

Then if your case against Trump is so strong , you should be cheering for Stewart's indictment, because you have such a deep and abiding aversion to fraud.

 

[Ouroboros]

Umm, no. It's the ineptitude of those who reported to note the actual differences between what Trump was found liable for, and what they've revealed about Jon Stewart. I imagine it's because they're assuming their readers won't know the difference either and parrot the same failed talking points. This is great entertainment.

Nope, your differences are specious tripe and motivated by the desire to shoot down a political enemy. Mad Lib hypocrisy is indeed great entertainment.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Nope, your differences are specious tripe and motivated by the desire to shoot down a political enemy. Mad Lib hypocrisy is indeed great entertainment.

Please continue, it's delicious. I have a real soft spot for unintentional comedy.

 

[hooligan]

So you didn't understand when the corrupt Mad Libs claimed that the crime didn't have to have a victim to be a crime? Maybe you didn't read them, just listened to CNN? It's their arguments that make Jon Stewart a criminal, not those of Trump's defenders.

I understand exactly what Trump was found liable for. You apparently don't. Thus your attempts to not answer a very simple question.

What equivalent fraud do you see between Stewart and Trump. Be very specific.

 

[hooligan]

Then if your case against Trump is so strong , you should be cheering for Stewart's indictment, because you have such a deep and abiding aversion to fraud.

What fraud are you saying Stewart engaged in? I'm willing to hear your argument.

 

[Ambig]

What fraud are you saying Stewart engaged in? I'm willing to hear your argument.

Yeah, I can't even understand what fraud Stewart is supposed to have done.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Yeah, I can't even understand what fraud Stewart is supposed to have done.

The need it to deflect to a famous liberal and claim different treatment.

WW

 

[Ambig]

The need it to deflect to a famous liberal and claim different treatment.

Yeah, I understand that part. I just don't understand what fraud Stewart is supposed to have done. But I didn't study the article.

 

[Plasmaball]

Nope, your differences are specious tripe and motivated by the desire to shoot down a political enemy. Mad Lib hypocrisy is indeed great entertainment.

Or you know don't ****ing commit crimes and then piss people off all over the place.

Novel idea

 

[Plasmaball]

Then if your case against Trump is so strong , you should be cheering for Stewart's indictment, because you have such a deep and abiding aversion to fraud.

Jesus this isn't even in the same timezone of stupid.

Go learn about housing before repeating some stupid shit off Twitter thinking you got people with your amazing point.

 

[SkyFox76]

Yeah, I understand that part. I just don't understand what fraud Stewart is supposed to have done. But I didn't study the article.

I haven't really dug into the whole thing but I think they are trying to say Stewart sold a house to a buyer for higher than market price (not unusual). And that's the same as Trump lying about the values and sizes of his properties. The only way I see this would work is if Stewart sent a picture to the prospective buyer showing a huge mansion with a pool and ocean view, the buyer says YES I'll take it and when they arrive to move in the property is a regged dilapidated shack next to a gator swamp and they have to climb a tree to even see the ocean which is 25 miles away. Idk, like I said I have dug into the situation, but that was my quick glance.

 

[Plasmaball]

I haven't really dug into the whole thing but I think they are trying to say Stewart sold a house to a buyer for higher than market price (not unusual). And that's the same as Trump lying about the values and sizes of his properties. The only way I see this would work is if Stewart sent a picture to the prospective buyer showing a huge mansion with a pool and ocean view, the buyer says YES I'll take it and when they arrive to move in the property is a regged dilapidated shack next to a gator swamp and they have to climb a tree to even see the ocean which is 25 miles away. Idk, like I said I have dug into the situation, but that was my quick glance.

House was valued at 1.7 million. He sold it for 17 million.
Somehow that's fraud because we all seem to be that stupid to not understand how selling It for 17 million is fraud.

 

[Ambig]

I haven't really dug into the whole thing but I think they are trying to say Stewart sold a house to a buyer for higher than market price (not unusual). And that's the same as Trump lying about the values and sizes of his properties.

Nah, they can't be saying that. That's way over on the other side of stupid... and MAGA commies are surely not that dumb.

I wonder if @Ouroboros will just come out and clearly state what fraud he's accusing Stewart of?

 

[Ambig]

House was valued at 1.7 million. He sold it for 17 million.
Somehow that's fraud because we all seem to be that stupid to not understand how selling It for 17 million is fraud.

I heard a story about Oprah. She went out to the west coast and stayed in a palatial home. She liked it so much that she told the owners she wanted to buy it.

"No, we don't want to sell," they said.

"Yeah, you do," she said. And she bought it.

The problem with Trump is that he values his real estate -- on loan applications -- as if Oprah really really really wants it.

 

[poweRob]

 

[Ouroboros]

Please continue, it's delicious. I have a real soft spot for unintentional comedy.

As far as unintentional comedy goes, you're giving Stephen Colbert a run for his money.

 

[Ouroboros]

I understand exactly what Trump was found liable for. You apparently don't. Thus your attempts to not answer a very simple question.

What equivalent fraud do you see between Stewart and Trump. Be very specific.

Why would YOU care about specifics? The constant Mad Lib theme here has been, "The law is the law; everyone is held to the same standard and the NY fraud case is not jury rigged to Get Trump." If Stewart over-valued, he committed fraud, regardless of degree. When's the indictment?

 

[Ouroboros]

What fraud are you saying Stewart engaged in? I'm willing to hear your argument.

See previous post.

 

[Ouroboros]

Or you know don't ****ing commit crimes and then piss people off all over the place.

Novel idea

That's right, Stewart shouldn't commit crimes and then pretend to be morally superior. I love that in his routine he dressed down the Shark Tank guy for a routine he did on that show. Hello? That show is a fictional construct, as much as Stewart's Daily Show.

What has "pissing people off" have to do with anything? I'm sure Mad Libs have been fine with Stewart pissing people off over and over.