Trump Ordered To Pay $364 Million In Civil Fraud Case As Judge Finds Ex-President Knowingly Committed Fraud

[Ouroboros]

He wasn’t even there and he’s been clean since 2019

 

[Donatello]

If Trumps name wasn't on the letterhead, there would have been no bothering of Weiselberg.

Gee. Are you saying Trump is a victim? Have you read the indictments?

 

[Ouroboros]

I read it the first time, it's just a silly notion given that it was a civil trial and the grounds for disgorgement (and its amount) were clearly established.

If the relevant higher court refuses to accept the Trump team's appeal, that will mean that they have sided with the corrupt lower court's claims of injury to "the letter of the law."

If they do hear it, that will indicate that James' case is not as ironclad as you choose to believe.

There's nothing false about it since it is the letter of the law. You can keep doing your Tango around this basic fact, but it changes nothing.

Since "the letter of the law" is your song and dance, then should one assume that you support the law in every case, even if an established law goes against your partisan principles? I bet that won't stand up to strong scrutiny on laws that Mad Libs hate.

It is not, because if anyone outside financial elites tried this, they'd get taken to court by the lender. Perhaps you can put this to the test with your property taxes and loan documentations and let us know how it turns out. Your definition of "standard" is fraud that's factored into how lenders approach their well heeled clients.

Have you an actual list of cases in which a non-rich client was taken to court by a lender who didn't like their valuation? Or is it more likely that the lender simply wouldn't do business with said client?

Property taxes are determined by the government. One can lodge protests but it's not a voluntary contract.

Other loan recipients and the market itself. Or are you positing that fraud should be an acceptable practice? I guess if you think that elites should be able to lie to get favorable loan rates while everyone else doesn't then that rationale might make some kind of warped sense.

I find it laughable that you entertain the idea that the Democrats stage-managing this farrago care about the non-rich people in society. Of course it makes a difference to banks if they know, in advance of making the contract, that a client is less likely to default on a loan. It could indeed be standard practice to blink at minor misrepresentations and agree to lower interest rates because they know they will get their money back.

You haven't at all. You've been spinning in circles down the loo supporting fraud and using child-like reasoning to support it: "b..b..but other people do iiiiit!!".

There's nothing more puerile than the notion that James and Engoron are motivated by anything but political advantage.

 

[ElChupacabra]

If the relevant higher court refuses to accept the Trump team's appeal, that will mean that they have sided with the corrupt lower court's claims of injury to "the letter of the law."

If they do hear it, that will indicate that James' case is not as ironclad as you choose to believe.

Lots of "ifs" there.

Since "the letter of the law" is your song and dance, then should one assume that you support the law in every case, even if an established law goes against your partisan principles? I bet that won't stand up to strong scrutiny on laws that Mad Libs hate.

...followed by an assumption.

Have you an actual list of cases in which a non-rich client was taken to court by a lender who didn't like their valuation? Or is it more likely that the lender simply wouldn't do business with said client?

I don't, do you? What I do know is that filing false information on loan documents is a crime, so I don't do it.

Property taxes are determined by the government. One can lodge protests but it's not a voluntary contract.

They are, and are based on the dimensions of the property, which Trump falsely claimed.

I find it laughable that you entertain the idea that the Democrats stage-managing this farrago care about the non-rich people in society. Of course it makes a difference to banks if they know, in advance of making the contract, that a client is less likely to default on a loan. It could indeed be standard practice to blink at minor misrepresentations and agree to lower interest rates because they know they will get their money back.

Fair enough, since your entire fraud defense has been immensely entertaining.

There's nothing more puerile than the notion that James and Engoron are motivated by anything but political advantage.

Ooh! Another assumption.

 

[Ambig]

If the relevant higher court refuses to accept the Trump team's appeal, that will mean that they have sided with the corrupt lower court's claims of injury to "the letter of the law."

If they do hear it, that will indicate that James' case is not as ironclad as you choose to believe.

If the FBI raids our cult headquarters, that will mean that they have sided with the enemy.

If they do not raid us, that will mean that they have rejected the enemy's evil.

For the cult is right in all things.

 

[Ouroboros]

Lots of "ifs" there.

I should have included, "what if another court reduces the ruinous bond to avoid accusations of cruel and unusual punishment" and asked you to bet on it. Then again, you're losing enough as it is.

...followed by an assumption.

See end note.

I don't, do you? What I do know is that filing false information on loan documents is a crime, so I don't do it.

But I know a Mad Lib who thought it was perfectly OK, after he himself railed against Trump doing it.

They are, and are based on the dimensions of the property, which Trump falsely claimed.

Not the only factor.

Fair enough, since your entire fraud defense has been immensely entertaining.

I can't surpass you, though Jon Stewart might.

Ooh! Another assumption.

A probable hypothesis, based on the fact that a prominent Mad Lib, in James' jurisdiction, has not been charged with fraud.

 

[hooligan]

I should have included, "what if another court reduces the ruinous bond to avoid accusations of cruel and unusual punishment" and asked you to bet on it. Then again, you're losing enough as it is.



See end note.


But I know a Mad Lib who thought it was perfectly OK, after he himself railed against Trump doing it.

Not the only factor.

I can't surpass you, though Jon Stewart might.

A probable hypothesis, based on the fact that a prominent Mad Lib, in James' jurisdiction, has not been charged with fraud.

Your video makes no sense - it claims Stewart OVERvalued his property by 800+%, and paid lower taxes because of it.

 

[Callen]

probable hypothesis, based on the fact that a prominent Mad Lib, in James' jurisdiction, has not been charged with fraud

You don't seem to be able to comprehend the fundamentals of the Trump fraud case. When one doesn't understand the basics one ought not to make comparisons that are not factual.

 

[hooligan]

You don't seem to be able to comprehend the fundamentals of the Trump fraud case. When one doesn't understand the basics one ought not to make comparisons that are not factual.

Right? There were far more egregious and nefarious things that Trump did other than saying "This property isn't worth $50M, it's worth $60M."

They are being intentionally dishonest.

 

[Cope]

A theoretical (but reality based) question:

If an assessment of my property comes in and I sell that property at 2 x, 10x the assessed value, did I lie on a form claiming it was worth that, or was the assessment wrong?

 

[hooligan]

A theoretical (but reality based) question:

If an assessment of my property comes in and I sell that property at 2 x, 10x the assessed value, did I lie on a form claiming it was worth that, or was the assessment wrong?

Tax assessments aren't intended to be real-time property valuations. That's what appraisals are for.

 

[Ouroboros]

Your video makes no sense - it claims Stewart OVERvalued his property by 800+%, and paid lower taxes because of it.

Are you of the false impression that the fraud accusation against Trump is different in some significant way?

 

[hooligan]

Are you of the false impression that the fraud accusation against Trump is different in some significant way?

The fraud proven against Trump is different in multiple ways.

Can you explain how OVER valuing a piece of real estate in NY results in LOWER taxes, as your video claimed?

 

[Cope]

Tax assessments aren't intended to be real-time property valuations. That's what appraisals are for.

Assume appraisal.

It works in either scenario.

 

[hooligan]

Assume appraisal.

It works in either scenario.

I have no idea what "assume appraisal" means.

 

[Cope]

I have no idea what "assume appraisal" means.

Assume it was an appraised value, not a tax assessment.

 

[hooligan]

Assume it was an appraised value, not a tax assessment.

Appraisals are good faith estimates of what a property is likely worth in the moment, based on verifiable contemporary data like comparable sales. Do they account for a once-in-a-lifetime-sucker-buyer that is willing to overpay by multiples of the appraisal because they just "have to have" the property? No. They couldn't possibly.

And?

 

[Cope]

Appraisals are good faith estimates of what a property is likely worth in the moment, based on verifiable contemporary data like comparable sales. Do they account for a once-in-a-lifetime-sucker-buyer that is willing to overpay by multiples of the appraisal because they just "have to have" the property? No. They couldn't possibly.

And?

Of course.

So, much like Stewart, and Trump who believed the values they used, someone thought they were worth more/less.

I guess at the end of the day my comment would be that the government does not know the 'true' value of any piece of property.

 

[hooligan]

Of course.

So, much like Stewart, and Trump who believed the values they used, someone thought they were worth more/less.

I guess at the end of the day my comment would be that the government does not know the 'true' value of any piece of property.

This is far more than a reasonable difference of opinion regarding values. Many of these scenarios are flat lies about what an asset is or isn't.



Trump Tower Triplex
Actual square footage: 10,000 sq ft
Claimed square footage: 30,000 sq ft
Overvaluation on SCFs: $114 million to $207 million
After Forbes outed him for lying about the size of the apartment, in 2017 he reduced the amount on future SFCs to 10,000 square feet with a value of $116 million.
Excuse: Determinations of square footage are "subjective."
Fraud: 100-200%

Seven Springs
Assessments by entities hired by Trump Org valued it around $30 million to $50 million.
Trump Org claimed on SFCs it was worth $260 million to $290 million.
Fraud: 480%

Trump Park Avenue
12 rent-stabilized units assessed at $750,000 total in 2010. Note, rent stabilization lowers the value, because by law the owner basically can't raise the rent. It's very difficult, by the way, to remove rent stabilization in NY; the rent stabilization can even be inherited by one's children.
A second assessment in 2020 valued the building at $22 million.
TO treated the value of these units as though they were not rent stabilized. They overvalued the building by 700% in 2010, and 64% in 2020.
Excuse: "The rent-stabilized units have the potential at some point in the future to be converted into unencumbered units." (Note: SCFs required current value, not a theoretical future value based on different conditions.)
Fraud: 64% to 700%, depending on the year

40 Wall Street
TO has the ground lease to this building.
Appraised by Cushman & Wakefield in 2011 at $220 million; TO claimed on SCFs that it was worth $527 million.
Appraised in 2015 at $540 million; TO claimed on SCFs it was worth $735 million.
Fraud: 35% to 100%

Mar-A-Lago
MAL is a historic site, meaning that it basically needs to be permanently maintained in its current state. E.g. it can't be knocked down, only employees are supposed to reside there etc.
Palm Beach County assessor valued it at $18 million (2011) to $27 million (2021).
TO valued it at $426 million (2011) and then $612 million (2021) -- a 2,300% overstatement. Also far beyond residential comps (let alone highly restricted commercial, which is lower).
Excuse: They claimed they could just ignore the restrictions. See above re: current/hypotheticals.
Fraud: 2,300%

Aberdeen Golf Course
TO got permission to build 1,486 rental units on the site. They later reduced this to 500 units.
TO claimed in SFCs that it had approval to build 2,500 homes, and used that to create an inflated value on the SFCs.
Fraud: 100-300%

More Golf
TO simultaneously claimed that the Trump brand increased the value of 7 golf courses by 15-30%, while denying they applied a brand premium.
Fraud: 15-30%

More Golf: Briarcliff
Appraised at $14 million.
TO listed it as $74 million in SCFs.
Excuse: TO claimed they could value it based on what it cost to purchase and maintain the property, not fair market value.
Fraud: 428%

Membership Liabilities
When he bought some golf courses, he assumed millions in liabilities for membership deposits. TO listed the liabilities as $0.

Vornado
TO has a 30% stake in Vornado, but he can't use or withdraw funds. Despite this, TO listed it as a liquid/cash asset.

Licensing Deals
TO fraudulently included intra-organizational deals as assets.
Fraud: $100 million - $200 million per year.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Pande (Buyer) may have a case for fraud in terms of the sale if he can show that Stewart supplied false legal documents setting "market value" so high when in fact it wasn't. Which is VERY different than say having a $1,000,000 telling the buyer the homes current value is $1,000,000 but telling the buyer that you would sell for no less than $20,000,000 (asking price).

On the other hand some seem to want to leave out the difference with the FPOTUS#45 case as a gotcha.

#1 This is a single transaction, for the New York AG to be involved New York Law 63(12) requires that the subject have shown persistent fraudulent and illegal business practices.

#2 Pande (or the AG in case of #1) in his/her civil suit would have to show that Stewart fraudulently misrepresented the facts in legal documents.

There is nothing illegal (as opposed to morally wrong) with saying "Hey, I have this $1 million dollar home I'll sell to your for $20 million" and someone else saying "I'll take it". That's on the buyer. On the other hand if Stewart falsified appraisals to overvalue the $1 million dollar property then the fraud is on Stewarts part.

WW

 

[ElChupacabra]

I should have included, "what if another court reduces the ruinous bond to avoid accusations of cruel and unusual punishment" and asked you to bet on it. Then again, you're losing enough as it is.



See end note.


But I know a Mad Lib who thought it was perfectly OK, after he himself railed against Trump doing it.

Not the only factor.

I can't surpass you, though Jon Stewart might.

A probable hypothesis, based on the fact that a prominent Mad Lib, in James' jurisdiction, has not been charged with fraud.

This is awesome, so laughable awesome. It's a great way to brilliantly exemplify not knowing the difference between valuations of property, and what actually happened in the Trump case.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Pande (Buyer) may have a case for fraud in terms of the sale if he can show that Stewart supplied false legal documents setting "market value" so high when in fact it wasn't. Which is VERY different than say having a $1,000,000 telling the buyer the homes current value is $1,000,000 but telling the buyer that you would sell for no less than $20,000,000 (asking price).

On the other hand some seem to want to leave out the difference with the FPOTUS#45 case as a gotcha.

#1 This is a single transaction, for the New York AG to be involved New York Law 63(12) requires that the subject have shown persistent fraudulent and illegal business practices.

#2 Pande (or the AG in case of #1) in his/her civil suit would have to show that Stewart fraudulently misrepresented the facts in legal documents.

There is nothing illegal (as opposed to morally wrong) with saying "Hey, I have this $1 million dollar home I'll sell to your for $20 million" and someone else saying "I'll take it". That's on the buyer. On the other hand if Stewart falsified appraisals to overvalue the $1 million dollar property then the fraud is on Stewarts part.

WW

Perhaps you should have waited a little longer so the double down on bad comparisons could have spinned its wheels in the mud a bit more.

 

[Mika-El]

Trump Ordered To Pay Over $350 Million In Civil Fraud Case As Judge Finds Ex-President Knowingly Committed Fraud

Judge Engoron’s ruling finds Trump and his co-defendants broadly liable for fraudulently misstating the value of their assets.

www.forbes.com

I lost track of this one, can he repeal?

Either way, it's not a good result for him.

Yes he can appeal it but in these kinds of cases a successful appeal would require an error of law. That means ONLY the amount can be appealed. The finding of inconsistent valuing is a fact. So the misrepresentation with inconsistent values can not be undone. Trump's defense to that was everyone engages in inconsistent value statements. That defense is not valid and actually its just not true. The discrepancy in how governments when they determine tax, insurance companies or mortgage lenders when they determine the value of property and fair market value can not vary as Trump had them vary. Its not how it works. The formulas for how each of those entities may determine value (other than fair market value) allows variation but not at the extremes Trump engaged in and so the formulas used by Trump's accountants were carefully documented as being done improperly. You can't as Trump argued claim the formulas are what ever you feel you should make them based on your individual self interests not an accountable formula everyone must follow the same way.

Next fair market value is not based simply on what the seller says as Trump argued. Its based on demand and value in comparison to other similar properties so in fact the buyer really has the final word and if Trump wants to argue he feels his properties are worth billions when they are not, that issue is called puffery and it actually is immaterial. What Trump feels is not the issue and never was and he turns every issue into a subjective feeling of his that he feels can not be questioned.

By lowering the bond requirement for appeal, the Judge took away any ability to appeal further on the amount of bond issue. In regards to the amount itself you refer to, its actually far lower than what the Judge could have found again preventing an appeal that the amount is too high. On this one Trump can keep trying to appeal but its like quicksand, the more he protests., the more the law prevents him from making certain arguments as the price for being able to appeal.

What you really see is Trump engaged in the tactic of trying to stall all proceedings and adverse findings against him before the election so he can run. Then he hopes at 78 when he is no longer President at 82, he can grant himself immunity once he is leaving office;. He also believes once he is President again all proceedings must be adjourned/.

So his agenda could not be any clearer. What is interesting is for a guy who claims he is worth 5 billion he sells shoes, Bibles and just yesterday pulled the same television evangelist plea we expect of all television evangelists. His followers will send him money not even giving thought to why they are if he is so rich.


So it is both tragic and pathetic and one would hope Trump devotees put down the koolaid and snap out of it.


Regards

Puffy Diddler

 

[hooligan]

 

[Ouroboros]

The fraud proven against Trump is different in multiple ways.

Can you explain how OVER valuing a piece of real estate in NY results in LOWER taxes, as your video claimed?

It doesn't matter. James and Engoron have claimed that Trump committed fraud whether there was a victim or not.

So Stewart should be indicted at the very least. But James won't do it, because her only motivation for invoking this interpretation of established law is to Get Trump.