Rich, White and Unvaccinated

[VanceMack]

Which do you think is the greater risk...a handful of rich white un-vaccinated individuals or thousands and thousands of poor brown un-vaccinated illegal immigrants? Which do you think worthy of article and comment?

 

[minnie616]

Not at all. Why should it "fail"? There is no reason to make kids face a decision of leaving or bowing, where everyone else is immunized....

One of the functions of the state government is to protect the public’s health and the Constitution’s protection of personal liberty.

 

[Deuce]

Which do you think is the greater risk...a handful of rich white un-vaccinated individuals or thousands and thousands of poor brown un-vaccinated illegal immigrants? Which do you think worthy of article and comment?

Vaccinate both groups would be my solution.

 

[VanceMack]

Vaccinate both groups would be my solution.

Would you vaccinate any group by force? Just asking.

 

[Northern Light]

A good doc on how the HPV vaccine has ruined the lives of many girls in Denmark:



Everyone talks about how rare the side effects are and how the risks are worth it, but you wouldn't feel that way if you were one of the unlucky ones.

The chances of you or your children acquiring a life threatening disease in the 21st century in a developed country are nil. Supportive therapy pretty much does the trick with most of the standard childhood diseases. Everyone in my age group had chicken pox when we were kids and got along just fine. Now they vaccinate against this rite of passage claiming that the disease could cause horrible complications in children. Give me a break. People often overlook the fact that modern sanitation and infrastructure has helped greatly with minimizing disease. It wasn't just vaccines that accomplished reduced disease rates, but advances in virology, bacteriology, and epidemiology. About 70 years ago people washed their hands way less than they do now, and many public washrooms didn't even have soap in them. It certainly helps that we done store our own **** in cesspools in our basements anymore.

The chances of ending up with life-threatening complications if a child contracts mumps, rubella, measles, etc. are about as rare as the most serious, permanently life altering complications of vaccines.

And anyway, the bigger threat this century faces is the end of the antibiotic era. Vaccines can't help us in that department.

 

[Deuce]

Would you vaccinate any group by force? Just asking.

Not by force. Just as a prerequisite to things like going to public school or working in a medical capacity.

 

[VanceMack]

Not by force. Just as a prerequisite to things like going to public school or working in a medical capacity.

Sure...I'm cool with that.

 

[Deuce]

Sure...I'm cool with that.

Ok who divided by zero?

 

[jaeger19]

Don't want to be religious? try citing some actual research to support your claims. Not that I expect much, with your "75% of the population will not be diagnosed with cancer" statement. I suppose since you know one person who smoked and didn't get lung cancer, you also think the connection between smoking and lung cancer is dubious.

First. I am not stating that there is not a connection between HPV and cervical cancer. that's pretty well established. The question is whether the HPV virus is causal and if so to what degree.
75% of the population has HPV.

From the CDC:

HPV is the most common sexually transmitted infection. HPV is a viral infection that can be spread from one person to another person through anal, vaginal, or oral sex, or through other close skin-to-skin touching during sexual activity. If you are sexually active you can get HPV, and nearly all sexually active people get infected with HPV at some point in their lives.

Now.. do nearly ALL people get cervical cancer, or penile cancer in their lives?

That's not the same as saying.. gee ONE person did not get cancer and they smoked.

The other side is that we don't know what the long term effects of the vaccine are. Gardisil was licensed for use only in June of 2006. We don;t know if you continue to have protection from HPV after years. You very well could be vaccinated as a young child, and then be more likely to get a worse infection LATER in life when your immune system is less effective. We still don't know the mechanism of the connection between hpv and cancer especially why some get cancer and some don't. Especially when most adults WILL get HPV in their lives.

there is no absolutes here.. getting vaccinated or not vaccinated should be a choice.. and saying my 10 year old can;t go to public school because he has not been vaccinated for a sexually transmitted disease seems more than a bit irrational.

 

[jaeger19]

Actually we talking about childhood air borne illness with possible severe side effects spread through cough or casual contact with surfaces . Diseases like measles , mumps, rubella, chicken pox and polio.

We were talking about " herd immunity".

Not HPV which is spread through sexual contact.
Also not the flu vaccination since there are many strains of flu and are just an educated guess which flues to vaccinate against each year.

Point in fact.. there is a concerted effort to make HPV vaccination mandatory for school as I pointed out.

if you want to discuss whether you should be vaccinated for CERTAIN childhood illnesses that have serious effects sure. But the discussion so far HAS NOT been about that but about vaccination and "anti vaccinators".

Just trying to inject some common sense into the discussion.

Heck.. I just had one person attack my position because I didn;t get my male 10 year old vaccinated for hpv.

 

[jaeger19]

There is one state that require the flu shot. No states require HPV for school.

Here is the list of vaccines required and states ( including DC ) that require them :

State-by-State: Vaccinations Required for Public School Kindergarten - Vaccines - ProCon.org

And I pointed out with a link that the HPV vaccine was made mandatory in Texas and had to be reversed by the legislature. And that there was and is a lobbying push to make the HPV vaccine mandatory in other states.

 

[minnie616]

And I pointed out with a link that the HPV vaccine was made mandatory in Texas and had to be reversed by the legislature. And that there was and is a lobbying push to make the HPV vaccine mandatory in other states.

Texas does allow for personal objections to vaccinations.

 

[jaeger19]

Texas does allow for personal objections to vaccinations.

Yep..and the governor of the state still tried to make it mandatory.

Whats your point? That smarter heads prevailed in texas rather than the mandatory HPV vaccine that the governors office tried to do?

 

[minnie616]

Yep..and the governor of the state still tried to make it mandatory.

Whats your point? That smarter heads prevailed in texas rather than the mandatory HPV vaccine that the governors office tried to do?

My point is vaccinations are not mandatory if one can opt out due to a personal objection.

 

[Deuce]

First. I am not stating that there is not a connection between HPV and cervical cancer. that's pretty well established. The question is whether the HPV virus is causal and if so to what degree.
75% of the population has HPV.

From the CDC:

Now.. do nearly ALL people get cervical cancer, or penile cancer in their lives?

That's not the same as saying.. gee ONE person did not get cancer and they smoked.

The other side is that we don't know what the long term effects of the vaccine are. Gardisil was licensed for use only in June of 2006. We don;t know if you continue to have protection from HPV after years. You very well could be vaccinated as a young child, and then be more likely to get a worse infection LATER in life when your immune system is less effective. We still don't know the mechanism of the connection between hpv and cancer especially why some get cancer and some don't. Especially when most adults WILL get HPV in their lives.

there is no absolutes here.. getting vaccinated or not vaccinated should be a choice.. and saying my 10 year old can;t go to public school because he has not been vaccinated for a sexually transmitted disease seems more than a bit irrational.

Yeah, see all this post does is reinforce my earlier assumption. You think to have a causal link, the factor must always cause an illness. Or nearly always.

Yes, it is the same thing. Not every smoker gets lung cancer, and not every person with HPV gets cervical cancer.

It is entirely rational to vaccinate children for a sexually transmitted disease before they become sexually active. Because if you vaccinate someone after they get the disease, it doesn't work.

 

[jaeger19]

My point is vaccinations are not mandatory if one can opt out due to a personal objection.

They ARE mandatory if the government demands that they are if you go to school. Even if one can opt out "due to personal objection".. because usually that personal objection is only if you belong to a religion or culture that expressly forbids such.. such as a Jehovah witness.

 

[Lursa]

My question to you is how could Dr. Wolfson's unvaccinated child get another child gravely ill -- unless -- that other child was not vaccinated?

Vaccines do not protect 100% and not all children can be vaccinated because of medical/immune conditions.

 

[clownboy]

Rich, white and unvaccinated - sounds like a problem that will eventually take care of itself.

 

[jaeger19]

Yeah, see all this post does is reinforce my earlier assumption. You think to have a causal link, the factor must always cause an illness. Or nearly always.

Yes, it is the same thing. Not every smoker gets lung cancer, and not every person with HPV gets cervical cancer.

It is entirely rational to vaccinate children for a sexually transmitted disease before they become sexually active. Because if you vaccinate someone after they get the disease, it doesn't work.

No its not the same thing. a causal link would show that it ACTUALLY causes the illness. Not every time is not a prerequisite. The question is.. how strong is that causal link?

Its about risks versus benefits. Nearly all sexually active people will become infected at some time with HPV. Nowhere near that many will end up with cancer. That's not a strong causal link right there. Given that the risks of the vaccine are as of yet unknown particularly in long term affects.. its hard to argue that HPV vaccination is a necessary prerequisite for a 10 year old attending school.




And no it does not make sense to vaccinate a child at 10 for a sexually transmitted disease when the risk of the vaccination are unknown.. but the actual risk of getting cancer from HPV is miniscule.

 

[jaeger19]

Vaccines do not protect 100% and not all children can be vaccinated because of medical/immune conditions.

You know.. a point of that. If your child has a serious decreased immune system (so they could not be vaccinated with .. it would not make sense to send them to public school regardless of vaccination.. there are certainly WAY WAY WAY more common life threatening bacteria etc that would pose a greater risk than whether his friend little Jimmy has been vaccinated for mumps, measles and rubella.

 

[Lursa]

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that vaccines do not make everyone who gets a shot immune to said disease, but rather they create a herd immunity, meaning that if everyone is vaccinated, enough of them are immune that the chances of a person who is not immune coming into contact with the disease is greatly reduced.

No vaccine is 100% so 'not every individual' is necessarily protected but the cumulative averages of an entire (or however large a percentage) population is wnat confers the 'herd immunity' that protects a population in general.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

People should be free to not vaccinate thier children.

Schools should have a right to ban such children.


Should an unvaccinated child cause a vacinatted child, illness, the parents then should be held liable for damages.

 

[jaeger19]

People should be free to not vaccinate thier children.

Schools should have a right to ban such children.


Should an unvaccinated child cause a vacinatted child, illness, the parents then should be held liable for damages.

Might want to check that "libertarian" lean there....:doh

 

[Lursa]

What is the probability in a 99 percent immunized population that an unimmunized individual will catch the the illness and then infect others?

The negative reaction to persons that do not act as the group demands is typical of natural peer group pressure as a reaction to suspicion. You see similar behavior in some other species under certain circumstances.

Where have you ever seen a 99% vaccinated population? And what is the ratio of negative physical reactions in individuals to the number of individuals that get the disease? ALso, what number of individuals carry the microbes and spread them but do not become symptomatic (get sick)?

Please support your implied suggestion that those that refuse vaaccination are harmed more by society's reaction than society is harmed by individuals that do not get vaccinated.

 

[Lursa]

You think the probability of catching say small pox in a population that is 98 percent immunized is that high?

If it is your kid with a compromised immune system, it doesnt matter what the probability is....it's a life or death risk.

And can you verify any populations that have been even 95% vaccinated for anything?