Rich, White and Unvaccinated

[calamity]

You think the probability of catching say small pox in a population that is 98 percent immunized is that high?

There are other diseases now. And if more and more people opt out, we won't have 98% immunized. Will we?

 

[joG]

Probably correct, but since we live in a society funded by taxpayers, we have some responsibility to the majority.

It's like public schooling. Not everyone like it - and if they don't - there are options they can take advantage of (private school/homeschool) but they can't really expect the taxpayers to foot the bill for those. (I know, some places have voucher programs, but that's not my point.0.

My point is that we need not make a law that forces parents to vaccinate, but at the same time, we can require them (at a state level, if need be) to keep their children out of public school if they voluntarily opt-out. This is already being done in some places. When outbreaks are going around, some schools ask unvaccinated kids to stay home (usually to protect themselves as well as other students). Some districts allow unvaccinated kids and some do not.

It's like the land I own. I can drive out here without wearing a seat belt and I can hunt my own land any time of year (I'm not a hunter, and not all states permit that). But, if I drive on public roadways, I have to buckle my seat belt and drive on the right side of the road. I have to obey traffic rules because they're designed to protect the public at large. I might very well be able to speed through a school zone and not hurt anyone, but I don't get to do that.

Likewise, I should have the right not to vaccinate my kids, but if I do, I can't expect the public to welcome them with open arms.

If you don't charge the parents for the public schooling that you exclude their children from and re willing to have the kids grow up outside the school system for the ones whose parents cannot afford private schools.....

 

[joG]

There are other diseases now. And if more and more people opt out, we won't have 98% immunized. Will we?

To tell you the truth, I do not believe in forcing people to do things that can cost them their lives, unless there is a real reason. Most parents will allow their kids to be immunized, if it is free and done at school. At least, this is what I have seen. Do you have a study showing something else?

 

[joG]

The problem is too many parents have opted out.
There are public school districts ( in California for example ) where we know for a fact about 5percent or more of children have not been vaccinated because their parents opted out.

From a Washington Post article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...alifornias-epidemic-of-vaccine-denial-mapped/

For most sicknesses for which I have seen the numbers 5% non-immunized individuals are not much of a problem. If we were talking of 20 or 30 percent depending on the illness could mean something else. The epidemiological probability is very low that an immunized child will be infected by one of those not vaccinated in most cases. There are characteristics of contagion that might require forced immunization in spite of the danger of death to the child immunized. But that would be a question to look at one illness at a time.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I guess we should add stupid to the list too.

White, wealthy and unvaccinated - CNN.com



Vaccines put a child at risk? Where did this moron get his medical degree?

Well he's an idiot- yeah.

But vaccines do put children at risk for various ailments and death. There's a tax on every vaccine sold that goes into a vaccination-ailment trust fund. Every year families with children who were rendered ill, disabled, or even died as a result of being vaccinated are paid through this trust fund.

National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

According to the CDC, from 2006 to 2014 over 2.5 billion doses of covered vaccines were distributed in the U.S. For petitions filed in this time period, 3,348 petitions were adjudicated by the Court, and of those 2,104 were compensated. This means for every 1 million doses of vaccine that were distributed, 1 individual was compensated.

Since 1988, over 16,629 petitions have been filed with the VICP. Over that 27 year time period, 14,335 petitions have been adjudicated, with 4,420 of those determined to be compensable, while 9,915 were dismissed. Total compensation paid over the life of the program is approximately $3.2 billion.

 

[calamity]

Well he's an idiot- yeah.

But vaccines do put children at risk for various ailments and death. There's a tax on every vaccine sold that goes into a vaccination-ailment trust fund. Every year families with children who were rendered ill, disabled, or even died as a result of being vaccinated are paid through this trust fund.

National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

Yes, a small percentage of people do have adverse reactions to vaccines.

 

[katzgar]

Yes, I know. I just added that as an afterward.

My thoughts are that as long as we cannot show that vaccines are 100% safe - we have to allow people to make their own choices. The vast majority will vaccinate their children.

And, you know me, I'm a HUGE supporter of personal choice.

can we then sue when someone gets us sick?

 

[minnie616]

Yes, a small percentage of people do have adverse reactions to vaccines.

Agreed.
A very , very small percentage ...about 1 in a million or less.
For those with known health risks there are medical exemptions that would still allow those children to attend public schools where hopefully they are protected via " herd immunity " from the childhood diseases.

 

[minnie616]

For most sicknesses for which I have seen the numbers 5% non-immunized individuals are not much of a problem. If we were talking of 20 or 30 percent depending on the illness could mean something else. The epidemiological probability is very low that an immunized child will be infected by one of those not vaccinated in most cases. There are characteristics of contagion that might require forced immunization in spite of the danger of death to the child immunized. But that would be a question to look at one illness at a time.

From an article I already linked.

Herd Immunity And Measles: Why We Should Aim For 100% Vaccination Coverage

For influenza and Ebola, the number R is about two. For polio and smallpox, it is around five to eight. But for measles it is much higher, somewhere between 10 and 20. And because of that, the goal for measles vaccination coverage is typically around 90-95% of a population.

But there’s a problem with this calculation.

The Population Is Not Random

The assumption underlying the calculation for herd immunity is that people are mixing randomly, and that vaccination is distributed equally among the population. But that is not true. As the Disneyland measles outbreak has demonstrated, there are communities whose members are much more likely to refuse vaccination than others.

Geographically, vaccination coverage is highly variable on the level of states, counties, and even schools. We’re fairly certain that opinions and sentiments about vaccination can spread in communities, which may in turn lead to polarized communities with respect to vaccination.

And media messages, especially from social media, may make the problem worse. When we analyzed data from Twitter about sentiments on the influenza H1N1 vaccine during the swine flu pandemic in 2009, we found that negative sentiments were more contagious than positive sentiments, and that positive messages may even have back-fired, triggering more negative responses.

And in measles outbreak after measles outbreak, we find that the vast majority of cases occurred in communities that had vaccination coverages that were way below average.

The sad truth is this: as long as there are communities that harbor strong negative views about vaccination, there will be outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases in those communities. These outbreaks will happen even if the population as a whole has achieved the vaccination coverage considered sufficient for herd immunity.

Herd Immunity And Measles: Why We Should Aim For 100% Vaccination Coverage | IFLScience

 

[HowardBThiname]

If you don't charge the parents for the public schooling that you exclude their children from and re willing to have the kids grow up outside the school system for the ones whose parents cannot afford private schools.....

This is the thing...public school is a taxpayer-funded program. Not just parents of school-age kids fund that program. Single people, empty-nesters, everyone who pays taxes funds that program. It's not a like-for-like program. Just because a parent has a school-age kid doesn't mean that parent is due some special treatment for that kid. It's just like parents who want their children to go to school in a religious setting - those parents are still on the hook for their tax payment, and they don't get a bonus when it comes to paying for a parochial school.

I'm all for allowing parents to choose whether or not to vaccinate their kids but, they might need to make alternate schooling arrangement if they exercise that choice.

It's similar to health insurance. We all pay our premiums, and we're covered for common treatments. But, just because we pay those premiums, doesn't mean we should automatically be covered for costs to see a Brazilian witch doctor.

However, we should be free to see that witch doctor on our own dime...

 

[HowardBThiname]

can we then sue when someone gets us sick?

Probably not.

 

[katzgar]

Probably not.

dang it

 

[HowardBThiname]

dang it

But, then again, as our attorney always tells my spouse....you can sue the Pope for rape...but you might not win.

 

[joG]

From an article I already linked.

Herd Immunity And Measles: Why We Should Aim For 100% Vaccination Coverage




Herd Immunity And Measles: Why We Should Aim For 100% Vaccination Coverage | IFLScience

Aiming and forcing are not the same thing. As I said. There are conditions, where you would want to force the population to immunize totally. That is, however, the exception.

 

[Casper]

Don't want to get vaccinated, fine, but with any choice there are consequences and those should be that your children cannot attend public schools and if your child gets sick or dies you get charged with child abuse/neglect and or man slaughter if they die from a preventable illness.

 

[minnie616]

Aiming and forcing are not the same thing. As I said. There are conditions, where you would want to force the population to immunize totally. That is, however, the exception.

And as I said I think parents can opt their child/children from the vaccination.
However , if they opt they opt out of vaccinating they might not have the option of sending their child to a public school.

They would need to either find a private school that accepts unvaccinated children or homeschool their child/ children.

 

[jaeger19]

I'd feel worse if I didn't get them the shot because of a 1-10,000 chance that something may go wrong and they then later died or became blind from complications of measles.

I also don't vaccinate my children. I am also a doctor.

You know why? Because NOT EVERY VACCINE is appropriate and has been demonstrated not to have risks.

the problem with all these discussions is that they assume that the vaccines you are talking about.. are only those ones for say mumps measles and rubella.

People seem to forget that there a LOTS of vaccines out there.. some with VERY well known risks.. and some with little known risks and little known effectiveness.

For example.. I have not had my male 10 year old vaccinated for HPV. the risk is simply not worth a limited benefit at 10 years old.

Now remember.. there are reasons that some push vaccines:

In 2007, Perry became the first governor in the country to attempt to make the HPV vaccine mandatory. Some social conservatives objected at the time because they argued that it would suggest to young girls that having sex is acceptable.

One of Perry’s closest confidantes, his former chief of staff Mike Toomey, was then working as an Austin-based lobbyist for Merck, which was in the midst of a multimillion-dollar campaign to persuade states to make the vaccine mandatory.

 

[calamity]

I also don't vaccinate my children. I am also a doctor.

You know why? Because NOT EVERY VACCINE is appropriate and has been demonstrated not to have risks.

the problem with all these discussions is that they assume that the vaccines you are talking about.. are only those ones for say mumps measles and rubella.

People seem to forget that there a LOTS of vaccines out there.. some with VERY well known risks.. and some with little known risks and little known effectiveness.

For example.. I have not had my male 10 year old vaccinated for HPV. the risk is simply not worth a limited benefit at 10 years old.

Now remember.. there are reasons that some push vaccines:

I wouldn't vaccinate a 10-year old for HPV either. So, I agree, some vaccines are not necessary. I don't believe that those are the topic of the article in the Op however.

 

[Deuce]

I also don't vaccinate my children. I am also a doctor.

You know why? Because NOT EVERY VACCINE is appropriate and has been demonstrated not to have risks.

the problem with all these discussions is that they assume that the vaccines you are talking about.. are only those ones for say mumps measles and rubella.

People seem to forget that there a LOTS of vaccines out there.. some with VERY well known risks.. and some with little known risks and little known effectiveness.

For example.. I have not had my male 10 year old vaccinated for HPV. the risk is simply not worth a limited benefit at 10 years old.

Now remember.. there are reasons that some push vaccines:

Let's just ignore the fact that HPV infection rates for teenagers have dropped by more than half

 

[Fenton]

I guess we should add stupid to the list too.

White, wealthy and unvaccinated - CNN.com



Vaccines put a child at risk? Where did this moron get his medical degree?

Rich, White, Stupid and LIBERAL.

Palo Alto parents are big on not vaccinating their kids.

 

[jaeger19]

Let's just ignore the fact that HPV infection rates for teenagers have dropped by more than half

Why? Why do we need to ignore that?

Lets put it in context though. How do you know that the rate for teenagers isn't do to education about HPV.. and other transmitted diseases. Especially because condom use among teenagers has increased from 46% in 1991 to 59% in 2013.

and what has lowering of the rate of infection in teenagers done for the actual health of the community especially when the infection rate (those that have been infected with one or more of the forms of HPV) is about 75% of the population?

.

 

[jaeger19]

I wouldn't vaccinate a 10-year old for HPV either. So, I agree, some vaccines are not necessary. I don't believe that those are the topic of the article in the Op however.

I am not sure that they aren't.

I have no problem if you choose to not vaccinate your children. Even if you go to public school. My children are vaccinated for major health risks and so are protected. And the argument "well what if the child is immuno suppressed".. well frankly if your child is that immunosuppressed.. you should not have them in school since the infection that they can get from school that aren't vaccinated against... are way more prevalent and deadly for an immuno suppressed child.

 

[calamity]

I am not sure that they aren't.

I have no problem if you choose to not vaccinate your children. Even if you go to public school. My children are vaccinated for major health risks and so are protected. And the argument "well what if the child is immuno suppressed".. well frankly if your child is that immunosuppressed.. you should not have them in school since the infection that they can get from school that aren't vaccinated against... are way more prevalent and deadly for an immuno suppressed child.

I don;t get the flu shots. So, I may not be the best advocate for vaccines. But, IMO, the reason Polio and Small Pox disappeared is the direct result of our vaccine program. The fact that diseases once thought eradicated are making a comeback at the same time more and more people are choosing not to vaccinate their kids is troubling.

 

[jaeger19]

I don;t get the flu shots. So, I may not be the best advocate for vaccines. But, IMO, the reason Polio and Small Pox disappeared is the direct result of our vaccine program. The fact that diseases once thought eradicated are making a comeback at the same time more and more people are choosing not to vaccinate their kids is troubling.

These diseases never went away in many parts of the world. The reason that these disease are "coming back" to the US is largely because of the influx of immigrants from countries that have little or no vaccination and have poor healthcare standards.

Honestly.. in evaluating the threat of this issue. I think we have way more to fear the influence of big pharma in pushing vaccinations that are not beneficial and may be harmful in the long run (especially the ones that don;t give you full immunity like the flu vaccines) than we do because a few people don't want to vaccinate their children for even polio.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Those who have been allowed by the collective to become wealthy who then turn around and refuse to do their part to promote the best interests of the many contribute to the fracturing of the nation, and have contributed to the rise of the rebellion of the little people.