Maybe this will change a mind [W:223, 278,342, 805]

[CanadaJohn]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

The law requires any fetus at or past 20 weeks gestation be given a lethal injection before an abortion begins.

Not a dodge ...just a fact.

I think it is important that accurate information be given.

I would think that if you respect accurate information, you wouldn't want to post bald faced lies. I could link you to any number of cases where a fetus has been aborted alive after 20 weeks and yet you deny it.

Claiming it's against the law as proof is like me claiming there's no such thing as murder because there are laws against homicide. That's just asinine.

 

[sangha]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

The denigration of this; to treat it as if it were a minimal thing,

No one denigrated this man, his child, or what happened. Please don't lie

rather than the powerful human thing that it is, denying this celebration of life,

Only the morally perverse anti-choicers would think a man crying over his suffering and dying child is a "celebration", but it's not surprising given their obsession with blood, gore and death

 

[minnie616]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

I would think that if you respect accurate information, you wouldn't want to post bald faced lies. I could link you to any number of cases where a fetus has been aborted alive after 20 weeks and yet you deny it.

Claiming it's against the law as proof is like me claiming there's no such thing as murder because there are laws against homicide. That's just asinine.

No you are the one mistaken.
There has been a law on the books since 2003 that no abortion at or past 20 weeks gestation can take place on a live fetus.

If there were any born alive infants during an abortion attempt past the year 2003 then the law was broken.

The abortionist was either sloppy and did not give the lethal fatal injection into the heart of fetus properly or the abortionist willing broke the law.

It is my educated opinion that Gosnell willing broke law and skipped the fatal fetal lethal injection.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

I would think that if you respect accurate information, you wouldn't want to post bald faced lies. I could link you to any number of cases where a fetus has been aborted alive after 20 weeks and yet you deny it.

...

Please provide any links of born alive infants ( botched abortion attention) in the US past the year 2003 that were not Gosnell cases.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

No one denigrated this man, his child, or what happened. Please don't lie



Only the morally perverse anti-choicers would think a man crying over his suffering and dying child is a "celebration", but it's not surprising given their obsession with blood, gore and death

Well, at least you're coming around to the understanding that abortion involves bills, gore and death.

 

[AGENT J]

re: Maybe this will change a mind [W:223, 278,342]

Newly widowed father sings Beatles classic 'Blackbird' to newborn son shortly before his death | abc7.com

In a flash this guy lost his wife and then his baby.

For those who are more concerned with their own lives than the lives of those that are being brought into the world, please, just read the story and watch the video.

Read multiple stories on this now and its heart wrenching, i couldn't imagine losing my wife an child like that and so close together, my heart goes out to him and them where ever they may be.

not sure what this has to do with abortion at all but after thinking about it it actually did effect me, it strengthened my pro-choice with limits outlook even more.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

...

Claiming it's against the law as proof is like me claiming there's no such thing as murder because there are laws against homicide. That's just asinine.

I was discussing legal late term abortions past 20 weeks gestation.

It seems strange to me that you want to make this into illegal abortion discussion.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

I was discussing legal late term abortions past 20 weeks gestation.

It seems strange to me that you want to make this into illegal abortion discussion.

when there isnt a valid path to take moving the goal post is a common tactic. Presenting facts often does that to those that dont have any.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

Yes there is. If you insist making wrongful or misleading statements, I wish you would go do that somewhere else.

The ones making the wrong/misleading statements are those saying there are infants in uteruses.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

How can you come on here and contradict yourself and walk away satisfied with yourself? Genetically human and human being is exactly the same thing. You really have to stop listening to lawyers, judges, and the legislature and start listening to your common sense.

No, it is not the same thing. My toe is genetically human but is not a human being. Basic common sense says they are not one and the same.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

OK, this is from 3 years ago. I don't know if they still do it, so pardon me if I am wrong:

After sufficient dilation the surgical operation can commence. The woman is placed under general anesthesia or conscious sedation. The doctor, often guided by ultrasound, inserts grasping forceps through the woman’s cervix and into the uterus to grab the fetus. The doctor grips a fetal part with the forceps and pulls it back through the cervix and vagina, continuing to pull even after meeting resistance from the cervix. The friction causes the fetus to tear apart. For example, a leg might be ripped off the fetus as it is pulled through the cervix and out of the woman. The process of evacuating the fetus piece by piece continues until it has been completely removed. A doctor may make 10 to 15 passes with the forceps to evacuate the fetus in its entirety, though sometimes removal is completed with fewer passes. Once the fetus has been evacuated, the placenta and any remaining fetal material are suctioned or scraped out of the uterus. The doctor examines the different parts to ensure the entire fetal body has been removed.

Babies Legally Ripped Apart Limb From Limb | Russell and Duenes

Thank you for proving my point. No INFANTS are being pulled apart in abortion.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

If the people who worry about the babies lives before they are born spent a fraction of that energy helping the babies have a better life after they are born, then maybe the mothers wouldn't feel the pressure to abort them.

Yes yes, it is important to protect kids and their welfare. Though you do realize that what you have written here is a deflection, not an actual argument, yes?

 

[Ikari]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

No, it is not the same thing. My toe is genetically human but is not a human being. Basic common sense says they are not one and the same.

Left to its own devices, your toe will not develop into its own conscious being. The same is not true of the unborn. Biology is more than just a snapshot.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

I was discussing legal late term abortions past 20 weeks gestation.

It seems strange to me that you want to make this into illegal abortion discussion.

You're the one who wanted to change the subject by claiming it never happened and by distorting the President's stated position on late term abortions. However, since Zyphlin advised that discussion about the President is off-topic, I won't pursue it here.

 

[Doppelgangirl]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

Every time you try to use the women's rights argument, you are doing two things:

1) You are appealing to our emotions (the same thing you are accusing us of doing). Except that women don't rate as much as babies do.
2) You are admitting that you prefer that babies die to save the woman some minor inconveniences (for the most part).

This. Right. Here. The bolded says so much about you and your posts. You have no regard for women, save their role in the baby-making process.

Now ***that*** is disgusting.

 

[RamFel]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

Exactly. It IS genetically human but is not a human being. Anti choicers are lying when they say we say it's not (genetically) human.

This is so funny. You should really quit while you're still within the realm of reality. A fetus is a baby, no matter what you hallucinate.

Time to wake up.

 

[RamFel]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

John, anytime I see Gosnell brought up...I find it to be nothing short of pro-life advocates wanting the imaginary of Gosnell's murderous, torturous, insane acts of atrocities to be associated with everyday abortions and the medical providers who practice in that field.

His actions are mutually exclusive from probably 99.9% of all other medical practitioners in the field.

There is a standing law called the Partial Abortion Birth Act of 2003. You might check it out.

I am sure that what Gosnell did was with the full blessings of PP and Pro-Choicers everywhere.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

I am sure that what Gosnell did was with the full blessings of PP and Pro-Choicers everywhere.

I am sure he was following gods precedent.

 

[RamFel]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

Well, your findings are wrong. And I don't need to check anything out - I wasn't making an abortion argument, for or against, I was responding to a challenge Scrabaholic made. You might want to check out what someone actually posts before you bring out the standard, irrelevant outrage and posturing talking points.

As for the "uniqueness" of Gosnell - you don't know any more than I do if it's unique or simply rare or worse and undiscovered. There isn't a government or justice agent in the room when every abortion is performed, so what's the basis for your 99.9% comment? Hell, I'd hope it was far better than that since there are millions of abortions every year and if 1 out of 1,000 is anything near what Gosnell was convicted of, that's an abomination.

Canada, you doth speak rightly....

Gosnell was a murderer indeed but all of his victims all happened to be just born.

What these victims of misinformation don't understand is that they can do what they want, think what they want, and say what they want, but they can never wash the blood and the guilt from their hands.

 

[Doppelgangirl]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

Only to the ignorant and uneducated.

You should take your own advice.
The hypocrisy coming from the morality coercers never ends. The greatest proof was when lawyers representing a Catholic organization (hospital if I recall), argued that the fetus was not a person in order to avoid liability for a death.

I remember that case! It drove me bat**** crazy. :blastem:

Especially when you consider Catholic doctrine doesn't allow for the procedure even to save the mother's life, and in many cases won't even mention/offer PlanB to rape victims treated in their ERs...

Pro-life my ass. :rantoff:

 

[RamFel]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

Ooh, I aim to please.

But my humanity is pretty much intact, I even used to run an self help group for recovering gambling addicts and I know a lot of Americans who would wholeheartedly disagree with you "whatever humanity you used to have is either totally gone, or very well hidden".

To discuss issues with people who often use irrational and incorrect comments (this is a general comment made to no-one in particular). And realizing what the facts and figures are focuses your ability to discuss on factual ground rather than illogical ones. You may think this is ignoring my own mind and heart but my posting here is evidence of heart and mind, my heart primarily goes out to women on whom people like you seem to wage a war on, at least when it comes to that woman's right to privacy and self determination.

This debate is about actual human rights, the rights of women all over the world and in the US and about interfering busybodies who want to interfere and stick their grubby little hands in women's private parts and rights.

I am very honest, I could not be any more honest and you may think need to come off my high horse, but then you do your best to get to an equal footing which does not trample all over the civil liberties and rights of American women.

Not your uterus, not your choice.

Wrong. Wrong on the women's rights part. I have already explained that this is not a woman's rights issue, and thus I will not discuss anything with anybody who wants to push this discussion towards women's non-existent rights, as I would rather move forward to what the real issues are (I think I might know what those issues are). You are invited to join me in a discussion into what that is, but if you insist on the women's rights issue, I will not join with you and will continue to discredit any wrong post that you continue to post.

Are we clear on that?

 

[RamFel]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

Ramfel made another (one of many) totally outrageous claims.

An infant -- under anybody's dictionary is a fully born child.

Your implication is clear, John -- regardless of the actual number of practitioners who has or will commit the atrocities that Gosnell did. IN THE UNITED STATES, there is no proof that Gosnell is anything other than an exception to the common practice with virtually all other clinics and medical providers. There was really no need to bring Gosnell into the discussion. Ramfel loves to use words like INFANTS, CHILDREN, etc being pulled apart during an abortion. Nonsense...and that is a pro-life advocate's fantasy, at best. Gosnell has become pro-life advocates poster boy to demonize all clinics and practitioners.

Right. That's why Gosnell was arrested.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

Left to its own devices, your toe will not develop into its own conscious being. The same is not true of the unborn. Biology is more than just a snapshot.

That is not the point. The point is that being genetically human and being a human being are not one and the same.

 

[RamFel]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

There is nothing special about Gosnell compared to his peers. He was scum who killed human beings for money, just like every other abortionist.

Right. What the left doesn't get is that when they make wrong choices, there is a hefty price to pay.

Gosnell made his choice and he is paying the price.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Maybe this will change a mind

This is so funny. You should really quit while you're still within the realm of reality. A fetus is a baby, no matter what you hallucinate.

Time to wake up.

???? Where in the post you quoted did I say it isn't? Please DO stay on topic, k?