Equality or Improper Use of Force?

[X Factor]

I think you know how to start a fight.

But I doubt you have been in any or that you have ever finished one.

Other than in your video games.

You're one out of three. Having been a target of some bullying in the 7th grade over some speech troubles, I had to fight far more than I ever wanted to. I certainly didn't win every one, especially early on, but I didn't lose them all either. As an adult, you're right, I'm no Rambo as you clearly are, I haven't been in any fist fights. I'm also no gamer. No patience for it.

 

[X Factor]

Oh, trust me. I'm probably the last guy out there to pick one.

In my past fights (of which I've had few), I've tended to stay on the defensive, and let the other guy come to me so I can potentially capitalize on their making a mistake. I'm also not above fighting dirty. Lol

Nobody is above fighting "dirty" when it's for real. The vast majority of fights end up on the ground, in my experience anyway. The movie fights where guys square against each other and trade knockout punches is strictly fiction. Not that I'm a huge stickler for reality in movies but the Rocky movies always kind of drove me a little crazy.

 

[Riveroaks]

You're one out of three. Having been a target of some bullying in the 7th grade over some speech troubles, I had to fight far more than I ever wanted to. I certainly didn't win every one, especially early on, but I didn't lose them all either. As an adult, you're right, I'm no Rambo as you clearly are, I haven't been in any fist fights. I'm also no gamer. No patience for it.

I'm really not a Rambo. I was just born bigger than the other kids. My mom brags about it.

Like you, in 7th grade I realized I needed serious martial arts training to survive. So I got into judo, karate, and wrestling. Then in college I added sword fencing too.

Uncle Sam taught me to face the enemy without fear and return with my shield or on it.

Been in a few fights with guys who won't back off. They all lived to regret it. The operative word is lived.

 

[Riveroaks]

Nobody is above fighting "dirty" when it's for real. The vast majority of fights end up on the ground, in my experience anyway. The movie fights where guys square against each other and trade knockout punches is strictly fiction. Not that I'm a huge stickler for reality in movies but the Rocky movies always kind of drove me a little crazy.

If the fight ends up on the ground then one of the two opponents decided they were better off in a wrestling contest than a standing up fight. Usually the stronger person makes that choice because the stronger is also the slower, and a standing up fight favors the faster.

But in order to take you to the ground your opponent needs to lunge at you, which closes the interval. Thus you then have two choices. And of course you need to decide quickly. Reflexively.

My first choice is normally always to wheel to his side like a bullfighter avoiding a bull and then kick out his front foot to throw him to the ground. I have done that several times and it works like a charm. That's a judo move.

The other choice is to take the tackle but keep your guard up and arch your back while keeping your legs back as in any normal counter move to a wrestling take down. But with one of your hands on their back and your other forearm wedged against their neck, which they have exposed to you in their attempted tackle, you transfer all your weight to that forearm and you snap their neck in two as you both go to the ground together. That's also a judo move.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Oh not really. Not under normal conditions.


"D" is actually a soccer mom and quite the respectable civilized lady. She'd just be the wrong person to assault or make her view you as a threat to her children.

"S" was like that mainly because her husband was like that... today she's a sweet older gramma lady.

"M" never punched a man except in self-defense as a last resort, and has since removed herself from the abusive relationship that resulted in those incidents.

I was joking, but what you say is generally pretty true - most women who are aggressive become so out of circumstances they find themselves in although older sisters can be evil and cruel to younger brothers until the time when they discover they've grown to like boys differently.

 

[Excon]

That's because men are more violent in our culture in general.

Men being able to to inflict more damage than females does not mean they are more violent.
Studies have shown women are more aggressive than men are.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

If the fight ends up on the ground then one of the two opponents decided they were better off in a wrestling contest than a standing up fight. Usually the stronger person makes that choice because the stronger is also the slower, and a standing up fight favors the faster.

But in order to take you to the ground your opponent needs to lunge at you, which closes the interval. Thus you then have two choices. And of course you need to decide quickly. Reflexively.

My first choice is normally always to wheel to his side like a bullfighter avoiding a bull and then kick out his front foot to throw him to the ground. I have done that several times and it works like a charm. That's a judo move.

The other choice is to take the tackle but keep your guard up and arch your back while keeping your legs back as in any normal counter move to a wrestling take down. But with one of your hands on their back and your other forearm wedged against their neck, which they have exposed to you in their attempted tackle, you transfer all your weight to that forearm and you snap their neck in two as you both go to the ground together. That's also a judo move.

Ya i dont know where everyone gets that "every fight goes to the ground" bull****. Some Ju-Jitsu propaganda or something. Out of allllll the street fights I have seen only 1 has gone to ground fighting. Most people either give up and walk away or get KO'd before anyone drags anyone to the ground.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

If you bite somebody's thumb off then they cannot make a fist anymore.

More importantly though, if you poke them in the eye they cannot see. That then allows you to then wheel behind them and tomahawk their neck, separating their spinal cord forever.

Girls, ladies, and women can do that too, they just don't know it yet.

Thats not true ive trained to punch hardwood and heavy bags with 100% relaxed fingers and even no thumb engaged. If you line up the knuckles with the wrist just right is still works fine. It even makes your punch faster because more nerve energy goes into extending your shoulder and elbow. Its just a more dangerous to yourself.

I can even punch hard targets with an egg in my hand without breaking the egg. (Although i cant break wood and bricks. )

 

[dirtpoorchris]

That's called a choke hold and they are used in judo.

If I have the opportunity to choke someone I will take it, sure.

But that only comes up between fairly equal opponents or against someone weaker.

In most cases the fight scenario will start with either words or with an approach of some kind.

Robberies start directly with an approach by a stranger.

A stranger has no reason to approach you other than a robbery.

Other fights usually start with words.

So situational awareness requires that you pay attention to both words and to strangers approaching.

Once the approach begins, then you must reflexively enforce your safety interval, and to do this you must reflexively get to your feet and turn sideways to protect your goodies -- the gonads, liver, spleen, and solar plexus. Normally everyone turns strong side away, weak side towards, and uses their weak hand to push away while the strong hand either draws a weapon (gun or knife) or gets the strong hand ready to deliver a blow.

From that point on the stand up phase of the fight has begun. During the stand up phase you maintain your interval until you get the best chance to lunge and attack.

If the opponent throws a blow you can usually catch it like a baseball and then while holding it firmly spin under their arm and put them into a hammerlock.

Then you have 3 choices:

- keep them immobilized in the hammerlock

- dislocate their arm

- rip their arm off their body.

There are lots of other offensive and defensive opportunities as well if you wait for them. The opponent's feet are vulnerable, especially if you are wearing your motorcycle boots. The opponent's eyes, nose, and neck are normally also vulnerable.

If you are stronger than the opponent, which you must judge by arm musculature and leg musculature comparisons, then you can lunge at and tackle them and take them down and wrestle them to the ground. But if they turn out stronger than you this could turn out to be a big mistake.

I prefer to stay on my feet and maintain my interval and fight that way. But you never know what is going to happen in a real fight.

Ahahahahahahahahahaha. Id like to see someone catch my punch like a baseball. I punch and return in less than 0.1 seconds with zero windup. If I throw my punch then that means your hands are probably out of place. If your hands were out of place when i begun my strike then you are going to get hit.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

This disparity of force does tend to exist, but is made too much of.

To pretend that it is so one-sided that one can always simply walk away while under assault is laughable and indicates a lack of actual experience.

Violent people often resort of using objects or weapons if they aren't "making sufficient impression" with their fists, for instance.


Even absent weapons, this "disparity" is hardly some monumental difference in many cases.


By way of example, I'll resort to the six women I know best.

"D" is a dedicated athlete and girls'-softball coach with a rock-solid physique and plenty of physical capability, along with a modicum of martial training. You wouldn't shrug her off if she came after you, I guarantee.

"S" used to get into fights with her first husband when they were both young hotheads. A sturdy gal who grew up a tomboy, she could punch like a man, and broke a guitar over his head one night when things got crazy.

"M" is a big gal and stronger than many men. She has in fact knocked men to the ground with a single punch on more than one occasion.


That's three out of six you wouldn't be able to ignore, nor to simply walk away unless they just LET you walk away.



Things are rarely so simple as to be dismissed with a one-liner solution.

Yes..."walking/running away " is not an option.

When I first got to Rhode Island for a new job, I was hanging out in a bar a few miles down the road from where I was living.

This really big biker chick came over to me and said "let's dance", and yanked me off the stool. I had no option or choice in the matter. After three dances she bought me a drink. When she found out it was Kahlua & milk, she drug me back out there for two more dances. She said that was her favorite drink too and we must be soul mates.

She lead the whole time and it was more her slinging me all around the floor.

Later that night I was used and abused even more at her place.
(the horror, the horror)

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

I was out long before you went in. We used M-14's still in the OCC.

"I didn't want no teenaged queen.

I just wanted my M-Fourteen."

Ruger makes a mini 14 that looks and works just like it only in 5.56x45. Max effective range is 500 yards.

The M-4 and the European Bullpups are the popular CQB carbines now.

They get shorter and shorter all the time. And their range gets less and less.

A fellow who had been to A-stan told me the USMC is putting one M-14 into every fire team again for desert ops.

Great rifle. Accurate to 750 yards. And you can hunt deer with it.

RiverOaks...I read recently on the M14 Forum that the Marines have now chosen the M4 as their main "rifle". You know exactly why I put the word "rifle" in quotes. It ain't one.

Sorry, Jarheads, this squid is still hanging onto his "ancient" ArmsCorps National Match M14.
(tumbling brass for it now as we speak)

 

[Riveroaks]

RiverOaks...I read recently on the M14 Forum that the Marines have now chosen the M4 as their main "rifle". You know exactly why I put the word "rifle" in quotes. It ain't one.

Sorry, Jarheads, this squid is still hanging onto his "ancient" ArmsCorps National Match M14.
(tumbling brass for it now as we speak)

You are correct RNS, the M4 is a carbine -- the shortest of them all.

Even so for desert ops the Corps is breaking out their stash of 14's and issuing-out one per fire team to the infantry.

Everyone else is required to carry an M4 though, including arty and tanks, up to and including lieutenant colonels.

Used to be that officers and staff NCO's only carried pistols. Now they carry both.

I think both is a good idea.

 

[Riveroaks]

Ahahahahahahahahahaha. Id like to see someone catch my punch like a baseball. I punch and return in less than 0.1 seconds with zero windup. If I throw my punch then that means your hands are probably out of place. If your hands were out of place when i begun my strike then you are going to get hit.

DPC you sound like a well trained boxer then.

Most bar flies are not well train at anything except as talkers. And they drink more than they are trained to drink.

Probably the best thing for me against a really good boxer would be to grab a bar stool or chair and use it as a shield and club against him.

With the stool/chair as a shield I could probably force him against a wall, and as a club then ram his face with it.

A bar fight is not a sporting competition and fighting dirty using all means available is fighting smart.

I played linebacker in high school and college so I can still rush a lineman pretty good.

With a bar stool/chair as a shield and battering ram it would not be a boxing match it would be more like ancient Greeks or Romans clashing phalanxes.

Remember, in a bar fight you need to surmise what your advantage is, not play into your opponent's advantage.

The biggest mistake of trained fighters in a bar fight is thinking that they are still in the ring. They are not. They are in the real world now.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

You are correct RNS, the M4 is a carbine -- the shortest of them all.

Even so for desert ops the Corps is breaking out their stash of 14's and issuing-out one per fire team to the infantry.

Everyone else is required to carry an M4 though, including arty and tanks, up to and including lieutenant colonels.

Used to be that officers and staff NCO's only carried pistols. Now they carry both.

I think both is a good idea.

I also smile a little when I see the number of 1911s in their holsters too.

 

[Riveroaks]

Ya i dont know where everyone gets that "every fight goes to the ground" bull****. Some Ju-Jitsu propaganda or something. Out of allllll the street fights I have seen only 1 has gone to ground fighting. Most people either give up and walk away or get KO'd before anyone drags anyone to the ground.

For standing up fighting, that's the ideal scenario, yes.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Yes..."walking/running away " is not an option.

When I first got to Rhode Island for a new job, I was hanging out in a bar a few miles down the road from where I was living.

This really big biker chick came over to me and said "let's dance", and yanked me off the stool. I had no option or choice in the matter. After three dances she bought me a drink. When she found out it was Kahlua & milk, she drug me back out there for two more dances. She said that was her favorite drink too and we must be soul mates.

She lead the whole time and it was more her slinging me all around the floor.

Later that night I was used and abused even more at her place.
(the horror, the horror)

Ahahahah. If this isnt a joke im so sorry. But I laughed so hard.

 

[Riveroaks]

I also smile a little when I see the number of 1911s in their holsters too.

You cannot beat a FMJ 45ACP for results. Although the 9x19's in JHP expand nicely, they don't work well against body armor of any kind.

 

[Riveroaks]

Yes..."walking/running away " is not an option.

When I first got to Rhode Island for a new job, I was hanging out in a bar a few miles down the road from where I was living.

This really big biker chick came over to me and said "let's dance", and yanked me off the stool. I had no option or choice in the matter. After three dances she bought me a drink. When she found out it was Kahlua & milk, she drug me back out there for two more dances. She said that was her favorite drink too and we must be soul mates.

She lead the whole time and it was more her slinging me all around the floor.

Later that night I was used and abused even more at her place.
(the horror, the horror)

I have seen two female Navy WAVES come into a bar and grab bikers like that and do it in San Diego.

https://www.google.com/search?q=nav...2&ved=0ahUKEwi_juThnbHJAhWImYgKHYCqB4QQsAQILg

 

[dirtpoorchris]

DPC you sound like a well trained boxer then.

Most bar flies are not well train at anything except as talkers. And they drink more than they are trained to drink.

Probably the best thing for me against a really good boxer would be to grab a bar stool or chair and use it as a shield and club against him.

With the stool/chair as a shield I could probably force him against a wall, and as a club then ram his face with it.

A bar fight is not a sporting competition and fighting dirty using all means available is fighting smart.

I played linebacker in high school and college so I can still rush a lineman pretty good.

With a bar stool/chair as a shield and battering ram it would not be a boxing match it would be more like ancient Greeks or Romans clashing phalanxes.

Remember, in a bar fight you need to surmise what your advantage is, not play into your opponent's advantage.

The biggest mistake of trained fighters in a bar fight is thinking that they are still in the ring. They are not. They are in the real world now.

Ya if someone picked up a stool on me id just back up, never turning away. Like slow walk backwards. Try to just leave.

If they where coming at me with a stool id prolly try to keep my arms up where its impossible to hit me in the head or upper body with the stool and step on your foot and push through right as you get into range. If it was being swung from the side like a club id prolly try to heel kick a knee as they are stepping down on that foot. Or if they are a clumsy runner maybe lunge side kick into their hip.

 

[Riveroaks]

Ya if someone picked up a stool on me id just back up, never turning away. Like slow walk backwards. Try to just leave.

If they where coming at me with a stool id prolly try to keep my arms up where its impossible to hit me in the head or upper body with the stool and step on your foot and push through right as you get into range. If it was being swung from the side like a club id prolly try to heel kick a knee as they are stepping down on that foot. Or if they are a clumsy runner maybe lunge side kick into their hip.

If someone grabs a stool/chair against you, then you too need to grab one as well for yourself, as you are backing away and maintaining an even larger interval than before.

It's called escalation.

I actually rather enjoy bar stool fights.

Never make the mistake of throwing the stool. That is as foolish as throwing a knife.

Keep the stool in your hands and use it like a baseball bat and battering ram, and like a shield to protect yourself against their blows too.

The most sober guy usually wins the barstool fight.

 

[Riveroaks]

As I have pointed out, there are many ways to deal with disparity of force. They each require training and practice however. They also require a certain amount of personal courage as well. Bullies and thugs are afraid of courage and have none of their own.

The worst thing ever is being outnumbered though. And that can only be avoided with situational awareness and also avoiding places where you should not go.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

Ahahahah. If this isnt a joke im so sorry. But I laughed so hard.

Nope, It really happened.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

You cannot beat a FMJ 45ACP for results. Although the 9x19's in JHP expand nicely, they don't work well against body armor of any kind.

I like the signature line I saw somewhere in this regard.....a 9mm "might" expand, but a .45 will never shrink.

 

[Riveroaks]

Nope, It really happened.

Everybody loves Sailors and hates Marines.

That's ok though.

As Nero Caesar said, I'd rather be feared than loved.

 

[Goshin]

To believe that you'd also have to believe that domestic assault against women, or rape even, really isn't that big of a problem or a big deal. After all, if a woman is just as physically capable of defending themselves as men are, then all fights are fair enough, a woman can just fight off her attacker. Problem solved.

I know that you're capable of reading and comprehending something as simple as "the disparity DOES exist, but is made too much of", because I've seen you read and respond intelligently to many posts. I can only assume in this case that you're being deliberately obtuse for some reason.

I didn't say there was NO disparity of force... I said plainly there WAS. I just said it is somewhat overhyped... that's what "made too much of" means.


Yes, the average man has more physical force/capacity for violence than the average woman. BUT that is just "on average".... and "on average" every person has one breast and one testicle.

In other words, there are plenty of couples or random male/female pairs that are NOT going to fall under "on average".


My point is simply take each "case" on its merits and circumstances and particulars, and don't try to stretch a one-liner viewpoint into a one-size fits-all solution.


The norm is the norm, but lots of people do vary from it, and all one needs do is keep your eyes and mind open to see this and adjust accordingly.