Why is immigration considered an obligation of a country?

[Eric7216]

I'll skip sharing the brilliant, deep thoughts when it comes to the theories or the legalese of immigration (joke) -- My thoughts here only stem from my belief that I am a worldly person and also take immense joy in traveling the world, interacting with people of different backgrounds, and getting to have fascinating multicultural experiences. There's nothing like getting lost in Paris; or eating at a Hawker market in Singapore until you can't move. Or clubbing in Mexico City with people who speak a different language, or beaching on the Gold Coast in Australia. I live for that type of stuff. Which is what an open and travel-able world has allowed me to do.

I'd like to have that type of world continue. Even more so too. I want to have a world that does not segregate itself based on artificial identities and does not place sovereignty over an individual's ability to travel, work or live where she pleases. I enjoy being empowered to chose my own happiness, and I don't want to be restricted to a the square plot of soil that I happened to be born upon.

So obvious that leads me to being very super pro-immigration.

Unfortunately travel leads to a loss of that very thing that you are seeking. When culture meet there is a dulling of the domestic/native culture and a homogenizing or blending of society. Heterogeneity is lost. I would like Sweden to be Sweden but that is lost if I run into 5,000 Americans and various other non-Swedes. Asking directions in Madrid from someone who turns out to be a tourist from London. Rome and Siem Reap turn into a type of Disneyland. We need segregation to promote diversity and without sufficient diversity we become a bland blob of KFCs and Starbucks and Nikes.

I loved travelling but have curtailed it so that others may have a small taste of the real experience. Travel was more fun in the 1960s. You have to go further off the beaten path than the common places that you mentioned to get something approaching indigenous cultural immersion.

 

[joG]

Could you expound on what you mean here?

Well, you are right. Even the native Americans immigrated into the North America and it might not be politically totally correct to disregard this. But I don't really consider them to be of immigrant stock. That was all I meant.

 

[Lovebug]

I actually don't have a personal beef with illegal immigrants. I understand their needs and desires, that is born out of desperation. That is different than me supporting it. As far as "very PRO immigration", I'll have to ask you what you mean by that. Do you mean just letting in any number of immigrants, as fast as they can be processed, or do you think there should still be controls? Do you think our economy is in a place, right now, that the jobs are there for even the people who are already here to have opportunity?

-edit- And, yes, we are a nation of immigrants. How did unmitigated immigration work out for the original inhabitants?

Great comment and questions, thank you.
Pro immigration...those who have a desire to integrate as much as possible, have basic knowledge and/or are willing to learn the language, will submit to a thorough background check... no discrimination of religion, ethnicity or race, so don't misunderstand this, please, but checking for affiliation with any radical groups etc, having committed other than petty crimes ( like stealing a loaf of bread to feed the kids etc)...willingness to pledge allegiance to THIS country.
With immigrants come opportunities. Many are contributing members, willing to work hard, starting a business. Yes, I think our economy can handle it. How? If we don't give millions of jobs to illegal immigrants, we should have enough to go around for most able bodied.
Of course this is very simplified. Simple is sometimes best, common sense is key. We have to start at local levels. Looking out for our next door neighbors, making sure our communities will thrive within certain boundaries. If that means to insist that legal residents have preference, so be it.
If we take away incentives for non legal immigrants, allowing legal citizens first opportunity, speaking English only, we have a good start.

 

[legalimmigrant]

The immigrated here illegally... hence they are illegal immigrants. Nothing wrong with a factual term being deployed.

Plenty wrong.

An adjective is added to a noun to modify or describe it. Not to negate it. Example: small wheel is OK. Square wheel is not OK. Got It?

From the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS), in a section entitled "Immigration Terms and Definitions Involving Aliens":

"Immigrant [is] an alien who has been granted the right by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) to reside permanently in the United States and to work without restrictions in the United States. Also known as a Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR). All immigrants are eventually issued a 'green card' (USCIS Form I-551), which is the evidence of the alien’s LPR status. LPR’s who are awaiting the issuance of their green cards may bear an I-551 stamp in their foreign passports."

Did you notice "granted"?

"Illegal immigrant" is a sick hybrid created by the pro illegal scum liberals in an attempt to elevate the illegal scum to the level of true lawful immigrants while reluctantly admitting that little difference how the scum got in here.

Do you call rape, an authorized sex act?

Do you call stabbing, an unlicensed medical procedure?

If you don't, try to justify this: illegal immigrant = illegal Lawful Permanent Resident.

A foreigner teaching Americans English is so much fun.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

The immigrated here illegally... hence they are illegal immigrants. Nothing wrong with a factual term being deployed.

Immigrant
An alien who has been granted the right by the USCIS to reside permanently in the United States and to work without restrictions in the United States. Also known as a Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR). All immigrants are eventually issued a "green card" (USCIS Form I-551), which is the evidence of the alien’s LPR status. LPR’s who are awaiting the issuance of their green cards may bear an I-551 stamp in their foreign passports.

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/int...ration-terms-and-definitions-involving-aliens

Since they did not meet the above criteria of our laws they are indeed criminals not immigrants.

People who break our laws and enter this country illegally are indeed criminals. The the term and the shoe fits.

He said immigrated... not migrated. Do you know the difference?

...and Visbek... just to nit-pick but that is not correct either. Prior to the United States being created anybody that came here emigrated from their home land to a nationless land, at least in the modern sense of legal/illegal immigration. My relatives that came over on the Maflower did not immigrate to a nation.

Emigrate means you are exiting your current homeland:
Some Native Americans did emigrate from Asia.

Immigrate means you are coming in to a country to live:
The Native Americans did immigrated to North America.

 

[legalimmigrant]

Screwing with adjectives to put lipstick on the illegal scum pig is one thing. F****** with the American kid's brains is another and a lot more serious matter. And that is what the American teachers do every day while their parents are at work, trusting that that yellow bus took them to a school, not to a North Korea style indoctrination camp.

To screw with your kid's vocabulary, they call the illegal scum undocumented knowing very well that it implies our failure to document them, and obscures the fact that they are undocumented because they did everything they could to avoid being documented by sneaking over or under a fence in the middle of nowhere when it was dark.

Once safely inside, they document themselves later by forging all kinds of documents, including their Social Security cards.

It's amazing how creative liberals can be trying to wreck this country just to feeeeeeeeel better.

 

[matchlight]

President Obama can't be both a Marxist and a Muslim. Fundamentally. It just doesn't work. These are two completely different things.

You are arguing with yourself. I never claimed he was a Muslim.

He is the president of the United States, and you should at the very least show a modicum of respect for the office if not the man himself.

That is your opinion. I don't agree with it.

Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he should be impeached.

There is ample reason to have impeached him. Andy McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor who is well versed in constitutional law, wrote a book setting out the specifications that articles of impeachment against your president might contain.

He isn't trying to "wreck America" either.

Again, that is your opinion. I don't agree with it. I believe the evidence supports my opinion more strongly than it supports yours.

This country was founded on said aliens coming to said country and forming the American system of government. Without immigrants, there would be no America---it's as simple as that.

The men who founded the United States and formed the "American system of government" did it through the Constitution, which was written in the Summer of 1787. Many tens of thousands of people had been living in the states for many years before that. Those not born here had come here, almost all of them from England, before there was any United States. Before the Revolutionary War, they were British subjects, and even during the war many continued to consider themselves that. The notion that these people were immigrants to a nation that did not yet exist, or aliens in regard to that non-existent nation, is simple-minded nonsense.

 

[Tigerace117]

You are arguing with yourself. I never claimed he was a Muslim.



That is your opinion. I don't agree with it.



There is ample reason to have impeached him. Andy McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor who is well versed in constitutional law, wrote a book setting out the specifications that articles of impeachment against your president might contain.



Again, that is your opinion. I don't agree with it. I believe the evidence supports my opinion more strongly than it supports yours.



The men who founded the United States and formed the "American system of government" did it through the Constitution, which was written in the Summer of 1787. Many tens of thousands of people had been living in the states for many years before that. Those not born here had come here, almost all of them from England, before there was any United States. Before the Revolutionary War, they were British subjects, and even during the war many continued to consider themselves that. The notion that these people were immigrants to a nation that did not yet exist, or aliens in regard to that non-existent nation, is simple-minded nonsense.

So all those people who flooded here through the 1800s and early 1900s, they don't count?

There is exactly zero evidence that President Obama is trying to wreck America. Zilch.

 

[Fishking]

Great comment and questions, thank you.
Pro immigration...those who have a desire to integrate as much as possible, have basic knowledge and/or are willing to learn the language, will submit to a thorough background check... no discrimination of religion, ethnicity or race, so don't misunderstand this, please, but checking for affiliation with any radical groups etc, having committed other than petty crimes ( like stealing a loaf of bread to feed the kids etc)...willingness to pledge allegiance to THIS country.
With immigrants come opportunities. Many are contributing members, willing to work hard, starting a business. Yes, I think our economy can handle it. How? If we don't give millions of jobs to illegal immigrants, we should have enough to go around for most able bodied.
Of course this is very simplified. Simple is sometimes best, common sense is key. We have to start at local levels. Looking out for our next door neighbors, making sure our communities will thrive within certain boundaries. If that means to insist that legal residents have preference, so be it.
If we take away incentives for non legal immigrants, allowing legal citizens first opportunity, speaking English only, we have a good start.

The problem with regulating the work of illegal immigrants is that they work in a lot of jobs that's hard to monitor/check. No one is going to go out and track down the thousands and thousands of sub-contractors out there and check to see if their workers are legal. I mean, I agree that there should be some kind of attempt there but I don't know how feasible it is. Maybe some smarter people can figure that out for me.

I also agree that the legal immigration process shouldn't target any group in particular. There is an issue with the vetting process, though, as the methods to do it will not be sufficient due to many reasons. If you check my post (#61) you'll see some of the points I made.

All that aside, where do you see having a large number of immigrants helping out the economy. We currently have the lowest job participation rate since the Great Depression. There just aren't jobs out there for everyone, despite what the twisted unemployment numbers say. In a bull economy I say we take advantage of immigration in a smart way and get the labor we need to meet the demand. I don't think we are in a place to do that right now.

 

[Bodi]

Plenty wrong.

An adjective is added to a noun to modify or describe it. Not to negate it. Example: small wheel is OK. Square wheel is not OK. Got It?

From the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS), in a section entitled "Immigration Terms and Definitions Involving Aliens":

"Immigrant [is] an alien who has been granted the right by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) to reside permanently in the United States and to work without restrictions in the United States. Also known as a Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR). All immigrants are eventually issued a 'green card' (USCIS Form I-551), which is the evidence of the alien’s LPR status. LPR’s who are awaiting the issuance of their green cards may bear an I-551 stamp in their foreign passports."

Did you notice "granted"?

"Illegal immigrant" is a sick hybrid created by the pro illegal scum liberals in an attempt to elevate the illegal scum to the level of true lawful immigrants while reluctantly admitting that little difference how the scum got in here.

Do you call rape, an authorized sex act?

Do you call stabbing, an unlicensed medical procedure?

If you don't, try to justify this: illegal immigrant = illegal Lawful Permanent Resident.

A foreigner teaching Americans English is so much fun.

You aren't teaching. "Immigrants" is not solely a legal term. How? Immigration is to move to a new country and live there. One can do this legally or illegally. Many are "illegal immigrants". I know you don't like this fact but I don't care... illegal immigration is a real term. Maybe you should learn about American English from an American and just accept it.

 

[americanwoman]

You aren't teaching. "Immigrants" is not solely a legal term. How? Immigration is to move to a new country and live there. One can do this legally or illegally. Many are "illegal immigrants". I know you don't like this fact but I don't care... illegal immigration is a real term. Maybe you should learn about American English from an American and just accept it.

What, you don't accept the IRS website as a valid source to define a word? :lol:

 

[Bodi]

Immigrant
An alien who has been granted the right by the USCIS to reside permanently in the United States and to work without restrictions in the United States. Also known as a Lawful Permanent Resident (LPR). All immigrants are eventually issued a "green card" (USCIS Form I-551), which is the evidence of the alien’s LPR status. LPR’s who are awaiting the issuance of their green cards may bear an I-551 stamp in their foreign passports.

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/int...ration-terms-and-definitions-involving-aliens

Since they did not meet the above criteria of our laws they are indeed criminals not immigrants.

People who break our laws and enter this country illegally are indeed criminals. The the term and the shoe fits.




Emigrate means you are exiting your current homeland:
Some Native Americans did emigrate from Asia.

Immigrate means you are coming in to a country to live:
The Native Americans did immigrated to North America.

I never said they weren't criminals. I said they were illegal immigrants. And Injust said that about emigrants/immigrants.

 

[Bodi]

What, you don't accept the IRS website as a valid source to define a word? :lol:

:lol:

Not in this case...

 

[Bodi]

Screwing with adjectives to put lipstick on the illegal scum pig is one thing. F****** with the American kid's brains is another and a lot more serious matter. And that is what the American teachers do every day while their parents are at work, trusting that that yellow bus took them to a school, not to a North Korea style indoctrination camp.

To screw with your kid's vocabulary, they call the illegal scum undocumented knowing very well that it implies our failure to document them, and obscures the fact that they are undocumented because they did everything they could to avoid being documented by sneaking over or under a fence in the middle of nowhere when it was dark.

Once safely inside, they document themselves later by forging all kinds of documents, including their Social Security cards.

It's amazing how creative liberals can be trying to wreck this country just to feeeeeeeeel better.

Why are you blaming American teachers? WTF?

 

[Howtohelp]

You see at the end of World War 2 the Allied powers created the United Nations. The United Nations, in turn created what is known as a the Human Rights Policy in 1977 which set a basic standard of what rights all humans had no matter what. As a result every country is held to a certain standard to uphold these rights no matter what race the person is. That is the main reason as to why countries who don't allow immigration are frowned upon with such distaste.

 

[Bodi]

You see at the end of World War 2 the Allied powers created the United Nations. The United Nations, in turn created what is known as a the Human Rights Policy in 1977 which set a basic standard of what rights all humans had no matter what. As a result every country is held to a certain standard to uphold these rights no matter what race the person is. That is the main reason as to why countries who don't allow immigration are frowned upon with such distaste.

Which countries don't allow immigration?

 

[legalimmigrant]

You aren't teaching. "Immigrants" is not solely a legal term. How? Immigration is to move to a new country and live there. One can do this legally or illegally. Many are "illegal immigrants". I know you don't like this fact but I don't care... illegal immigration is a real term. Maybe you should learn about American English from an American and just accept it.

I know American English better than 90% of people here.

Your definition is a Reader's Digest - or a grade school pablum - version. There is only one version of the definition - the one that the feds use. All others are kiddy talk.

The fed definition is free of the romantic crap and feeeeeeeeeelings the pro illegal scum liberals want to inject into every discussion of the subject.

Yours does not belong here - a debate forum - where the distinction between illegal and legal is the subject matter.

Is a squatter an illegal tenant? No. Tenant is a person who signed a legally binding tenancy contract and was permitted to occupy the premises.

Still lost? Call the White House and ask if they ever called a guy who climbed over the fence an illegal visitor?

Now I know why this country is so totally screwed. Every crazy group has its own version of English.

 

[Visbek]

In my post I objected to the term "illegal immigrant". I used me as an example to show who is an immigrant and that I find the term "illegal immigrant" an insult to all the legal immigrants.

Same for that "undocumented" crap.

...and unsurprisingly, we are back at you trying to control the debate with deeply flawed semantics.

An immigrant is someone who moves to a different country to take up permanent residence. Their legal status is not relevant to their classification as an "immigrant." The term "migrant" refers to those looking for temporary residence.

It is really not my problem if you don't like the term, nor am I going to change my use of it on your behalf.

 

[legalimmigrant]

...and unsurprisingly, we are back at you trying to control the debate with deeply flawed semantics.

An immigrant is someone who moves to a different country to take up permanent residence. Their legal status is not relevant to their classification as an "immigrant." The term "migrant" refers to those looking for temporary residence.

It is really not my problem if you don't like the term, nor am I going to change my use of it on your behalf.

Send your brilliant explanation to ICE. They are going to melt laughing.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

I never said they weren't criminals. I said they were illegal immigrants. And Injust said that about emigrants/immigrants.

Illegal immigrant doesn't make sense. If you are not entering according to our law you do not meet the criteria or the title of immigrant. You are an alien who is in violation of our laws. You are a criminal and an alien illegally entering our country. You may want to be and immigrant and also may want to be a citizen. But you are no more an immigrant than you are a citizen until you meet the requirement of the title. I am tired of pampering people with no respect for our laws. People with no respect for our laws also have no respect for the citizens living here and should be removed from this country immediately. There are millions of good people all over the world waiting patently to immigrate to this country that respect our laws and will be an asset to this country. It is a slap in the face to these people to bypass them in order to offer citizenship to criminals who are not an asset but a cancer. A cancer that needs to be cut out and removed.

 

[legalimmigrant]

Illegal immigrant doesn't make sense. If you are not entering according to our law you do not meet the criteria or the title of immigrant. You are an alien who is in violation of our laws. You are a criminal and an alien illegally entering our country. You may want to be and immigrant and also may want to be a citizen. But you are no more an immigrant than you are a citizen until you meet the requirement of the title. I am tired of pampering people with no respect for our laws. People with no respect for our laws also have no respect for the citizens living here and should be removed from this country immediately. There are millions of good people all over the world waiting patently to immigrate to this country that respect our laws and will be an asset to this country. It is a slap in the face to these people to bypass them in order to offer citizenship to criminals who are not an asset but a cancer. A cancer that needs to be cut out and removed.

...before it metastases and kills the host.

 

[Visbek]

There once was--we needed railroad workers and miners and craftsmen and farmers and ranchers and people to populate the vast empty country that was once here. But now we have millions more people than paying jobs and bringing in more people at this time makes no sense.

Funny thing, though -- those are pretty much the same the arguments nativists used during those earlier periods of immigration. And yet, instead of being the Doom of the Nation, it made the US a political, economic and military powerhouse. Go figure.

I think we may always need some guest workers programs to bring folks in from Mexico or wherever who need the work and we need the labor for harvest, etc. But the workers or farmers should be responsible to pay for their transportation, housing, and other needs while they are here....

Yes, a guest worker program can work, for those who only want temporary residence. It doesn't help those who want to stay here permanently, or who want to hire those immigrants.

And yes, most of those immigrants DO pay for their transportation, housing, and other needs.

when we have the highest work force in this country not working since the Great Depression, it makes no sense to keep bringing more folks in.

Not even close.

Let's look at the actual LFPR rates.

LFPR is currently around 61%. Given the massive unemployment during the Great Depression, it's very likely that LFPR was at 50% or less during the 1930s. You are off by several decades.

There is also no correlation between the size of the immigration communities (legal and illegal) and LFPR. Immigrants did not flee the US between 1970 and 2001; they did not only start coming to the US in 1991.

By the way, LFPR ≠ "unemployment." While some of those not in the workforce have basically given up looking for work, most of the people not in the workforce do not want a job at all. They are retired, or in school, or home makers, or taking care of family, or raising kids.

And of course, despite the deepest wishes of conservatives around the nation, the job market is improving, albeit slowly and gradually -- as is often the case after a recession.

Last but not least: The real reason why wages are low? Automation and outsourcing. Immigrant labor (legal and illegal) has little effect, especially as they are mostly concentrated in specific regions.

Thus, it is certainly not the case that we are in some exceptional era where immigrants (legal or illegal) are utterly decimating wages.

 

[Visbek]

Send your brilliant explanation to ICE. They are going to melt laughing.

Uh, no. They're going to know exactly what I'm talking about, as I am using a perfectly standard and normal dictionary definition.

 

[Visbek]

Illegal immigrant doesn't make sense.

Of course it does.

It's someone who moves to a new nation to live permanently, and disregards immigration laws. There are millions of people who do that right now.

If you are not entering according to our law you do not meet the criteria or the title of immigrant. You are an alien who is in violation of our laws.

News flash! The term "alien" and "immigrant" are not mutually exclusive.

Alien = A person not a citizen or national of the United States
Immigrant = a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence

You are a criminal and an alien illegally entering our country.

If you've ever broken the speed limit, you're a criminal.

If you consumed alcohol when underage, without proper supervision, you're a criminal.

If you've ever misrepresented any line on any tax form, you're a criminal.

Somehow, the term "criminal" doesn't always carry a lot of moral weight.

Or, to put it another way: To declare that all criminals are unethical is to beg the question, when we are asking whether the law is correct in the first place.

I am tired of pampering people with no respect for our laws.

Awwwwww.... Poor baby

People with no respect for our laws also have no respect for the citizens living here and should be removed from this country immediately.

Does that include those who break the speed limit, those who participate in office gambling pools, jaywalkers, people who download unauthorized files from the Internet, or don't pay sales taxes for online purchases? (Yes, that's right, if you buy something via the Internet, you are supposed to pay the sales tax; retail stores just do it for you to make it easier to collect the tax.)

Do you also think we should deport anyone who has ever smoked a joint? Obviously, they have no respect for our laws!!!

There are millions of good people all over the world waiting patently to immigrate to this country that respect our laws and will be an asset to this country. It is a slap in the face to these people to bypass them in order to offer citizenship to criminals who are not an asset but a cancer. A cancer that needs to be cut out and removed.

Good grief.

We already proposed a possible reform that put all those lawbreakers at the back of the line, charge them a big fee, and block violent felons from qualifying -- and it got shot down. What a surprise.

Or perhaps you supported the 2013 bill....? Have I misunderestimated you, PIPEWRENCH? :mrgreen:

 

[Bodi]

I know American English better than 90% of people here.

Your definition is a Reader's Digest - or a grade school pablum - version. There is only one version of the definition - the one that the feds use. All others are kiddy talk.

The fed definition is free of the romantic crap and feeeeeeeeeelings the pro illegal scum liberals want to inject into every discussion of the subject.

Yours does not belong here - a debate forum - where the distinction between illegal and legal is the subject matter.

Is a squatter an illegal tenant? No. Tenant is a person who signed a legally binding tenancy contract and was permitted to occupy the premises.

Still lost? Call the White House and ask if they ever called a guy who climbed over the fence an illegal visitor?
.

Oh look, he wants to play. :lol:

Alrighty then, if you want to get technical. According to Homeland Security (the FEDS)

Immigrant according to Homeland Security

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/data-standards-and-definitions/definition-terms#8

Leads to a Permanent Resident Alien

Permanent Resident Alien - An alien admitted to the United States as a lawful permanent resident. Permanent residents are also commonly referred to as immigrants; however, the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) broadly defines an immigrant as any alien in the United States, except one legally admitted under specific nonimmigrant categories (INA section 101(a)(15)). An illegal alien who entered the United States without inspection, for example, would be strictly defined as an immigrant under the INA but is not a permanent resident alien. Lawful permanent residents are legally accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States. They may be issued immigrant visas by the Department of State overseas or adjusted to permanent resident status by the Department of Homeland Security in the United States.

To be an ILLEGAL Permanent Resident Alien (the FEDS term for an IMMIGRANT) we go to here: Unauthorized Immigrant Population

We get Illegal Unauthorized Immigrant Population

Illegal Alien Resident Population

https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/illegal.pdf

So obviously illegal immigrants, or aliens, are known as a population. A population that are here illegally, or an illegal alien population.

Not only did they literally IMMIGRATE to the USA they did so ILLEGALLY. They are not here legally, they are criminals, hence the term ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.

Now I know why this country is so totally screwed. Every crazy group has its own version of English

What is screwing the USA over are the cry babies whining about idiotic semantics.