Why is immigration considered an obligation of a country?

[Fishking]

I have seen Americans not of immigrant stock and have actually known two.

Could you expound on what you mean here?

 

[Fishking]

I am very much PRO immigration. We are a nation of immigrants, are we not?
What I am against is illegal immigration. I refuse to respect illegals and those who make excuses for them. This braking in, squatting and demanding has gotten out of hand. It is despicable.

I actually don't have a personal beef with illegal immigrants. I understand their needs and desires, that is born out of desperation. That is different than me supporting it. As far as "very PRO immigration", I'll have to ask you what you mean by that. Do you mean just letting in any number of immigrants, as fast as they can be processed, or do you think there should still be controls? Do you think our economy is in a place, right now, that the jobs are there for even the people who are already here to have opportunity?

-edit- And, yes, we are a nation of immigrants. How did unmitigated immigration work out for the original inhabitants?

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

I am amazed how Americans like grade school pablum as a replacement for common sense and the concept of cost and benefit.

But, hey, if you want to play charity games, it's fine with me. But it takes a certain mental dysfunction to be charitable with borrowed money.

Just in case you forgot, the U.S. is broke and immigrants consume more in government services and welfare than they produce in taxes. So, the missing part is yours to pay.

I hope it feels good.

You are right.

The people on government payroll don't care. As far as they are concerned they will just tax us until they break the camels back.

The people on welfare and government subsidies don't care. They have no concept that someone else has to pay and don't care.

The rich have plenty of tax shelters and are the prime benefactor of the slave labor. They get cheap slaves to clean their homes, take care of their yards, and what not. Plus they use them to keep wages low in any jobs they can. You want a fair wage for your hard work well too bad I have millions of cheap laborers that will do the work for close to nothing.

 

[Fishking]

Enough! Stop all immigration!??? Should we throw out a few from years back too?

No, if someone has legally immigrated here already then they are here. I like free and open trade/travel, though. We should totally end our Cuban embargo and also open up full trade with Iran, if people want to. I don't think we need to like a nation to have trade and travel with them. I mean, does China or Saudi Arabia have a good human rights track record? Why are we cool with them but not others?

 

[Visbek]

What a load of grade school pablum.

No, it's pretty much a fact. Everyone who is not a Native American basically came from somewhere else. The mentality of "I've got mine, so shove off" is utterly irrational, given that context.

Good lord! Why does it take an immigrant to explain what "immigrant" means?

Why is an immigrant indulging in semantic bull****, while utterly ignoring the substance of my argument?

 

[Fishking]

Yes. And I would be one of those people outraged.

Well, according to Grand Mal, you're a figment of my imagination.

That aside, why would you be outraged if we stopped all immigration for a period of time?

 

[legalimmigrant]

"Legal" immigrants like you? Or illegal immigrants?

Immigrants. There is no such thing as illegal immigrants. Illegal = criminal.

 

[chuckiechan]

The biggest benefit of Mexican labor is they will work weekends, nights, holidays, rain, snow, hurricanes for cash, gold, silver. They don't care. They have no life. They earn to leave. They are here for the money, they send it home, they have no interest in becoming "American". Then find a girlfriend, drop a kid and mom hits the jackpot, so now dad has a cheaper place to live so he can earn more cash to send home. If he chooses he gets married in a "cultural ceremony", so he isn't legally married by state law so he and his income does not exist as far as social services is concerned.

The get it all. Free medical, the works. The money sent to Mexico is worse than a tax because it doesn't get circulated in the American economy.

I was in a job shack once letting the super know I was pulling my crew due to a storm. There were Mexicans on a three story roof setting roof tiles in the wind and the rain with no safety harnesses. I mentioned that. The super said. "If one falls, his 'brother' will be here in an hour. Not my problem, call the roof sub." Things have improved somewhat as far as worker safety since then, but the principle is the same. They dance to a different drummer.

They do not like us "Anglos" at all. These liberals are kidding themselves. It isn't the "warm glow of gratitude" they are feeling. It's the visceral jealousy of Americans who they feel stole northern Mexico.

 

[Tigerace117]

I am amazed how Americans like grade school pablum as a replacement for common sense and the concept of cost and benefit.

But, hey, if you want to play charity games, it's fine with me. But it takes a certain mental dysfunction to be charitable with borrowed money.

Just in case you forgot, the U.S. is broke and immigrants consume more in government services and welfare than they produce in taxes. So, the missing part is yours to pay.

I hope it feels good.

Aren't you an immigrant? You know, you should start paying your taxes then, if your so concerned.

Turning into a capitalist North Korea isn't "common sense policies".

 

[legalimmigrant]

No, it's pretty much a fact. Everyone who is not a Native American basically came from somewhere else. The mentality of "I've got mine, so shove off" is utterly irrational, given that context.

Why is an immigrant indulging in semantic bull****, while utterly ignoring the substance of my argument?

"My argument"? Since when a romanticized grade school feel-good pablum deserves to be called "argument"?

Yes, my house, my car, my money are mine so shove off. This country belongs to those in it and nobody else, so shove off.

 

[Fishking]

But there is a practical way to vet them. Until we invent a way to read people's minds, there's no 100% surety; but we have very strict vetting processes.

No, we don't have a strict vetting process. That's a reality. I know what is involved in the process and there is no way to give proper vetting to really anyone. Of course we do the best we can but the best we can is really nothing at all. You have to have information to vet people and there is no way to confirm such information. I've worked in the vetting process and know what it takes.

For example, what systems exist in their country that has information that we could pull from? How do we even know they are who they say they are? What legal structures exist in that country that would put certain activities on a tracker. You could have someone who carried out an honor killing on his sister or daughter and they would have been allowed and not even resulted in the recording of a crime. There are way different standards. This isn't like a European country having proper laws, systems, and checks that we could use. These are people coming from countries that we may not even recognize their government as being legitimate (e.g. Syria) and who are torn apart by war and there are no systems in place.

The reality is, you cannot properly vet.

 

[Tigerace117]

The biggest benefit of Mexican labor is they will work weekends, nights, holidays, rain, snow, hurricanes for cash, gold, silver. They don't care. They have no life. They earn to leave. They are here for the money, they send it home, they have no interest in becoming "American". Then find a girlfriend, drop a kid and mom hits the jackpot, so now dad has a cheaper place to live so he can earn more cash to send home. If he chooses he gets married in a "cultural ceremony", so he isn't legally married by state law so he and his income does not exist as far as social services is concerned.

The get it all. Free medical, the works. The money sent to Mexico is worse than a tax because it doesn't get circulated in the American economy.

I was in a job shack once letting the super know I was pulling my crew due to a storm. There were Mexicans on a three story roof setting roof tiles in the wind and the rain with no safety harnesses. I mentioned that. The super said. "If one falls, his 'brother' will be here in an hour. Not my problem, call the roof sub." Things have improved somewhat as far as worker safety since then, but the principle is the same. They dance to a different drummer.

They do not like us "Anglos" at all. These liberals are kidding themselves. It isn't the "warm glow of gratitude" they are feeling. It's the visceral jealousy of Americans who they feel stole northern Mexico.

That may be true for some, but not for most. Their here because they want to get their families to America, so their brother or cousin or kids aren't the next headless corpses hanging from the bridge or floating in the river, to get out of a place where a good half the time there's no point reporting a crime because the police are on the cartel's payroll and won't do ****, to get to a country where even the most desperately poor still have better living standards then many other countries.

 

[legalimmigrant]

Aren't you an immigrant? You know, you should start paying your taxes then, if your so concerned.

Turning into a capitalist North Korea isn't "common sense policies".

What does a stupid immigration policy of your government have to do with me? I am not going to let anyone make me a subject of any debate.

And my opinions stand alone - right or wrong. If wrong, show me if you can.

 

[Tigerace117]

No, we don't have a strict vetting process. That's a reality. I know what is involved in the process and there is no way to give proper vetting to really anyone. Of course we do the best we can but the best we can is really nothing at all. You have to have information to vet people and there is no way to confirm such information. I've worked in the vetting process and know what it takes.

For example, what systems exist in their country that has information that we could pull from? How do we even know they are who they say they are? What legal structures exist in that country that would put certain activities on a tracker. You could have someone who carried out an honor killing on his sister or daughter and they would have been allowed and not even resulted in the recording of a crime. There are way different standards. This isn't like a European country having proper laws, systems, and checks that we could use. These are people coming from countries that we may not even recognize their government as being legitimate (e.g. Syria) and who are torn apart by war and there are no systems in place.

The reality is, you cannot properly vet.

So what are you suggesting? We have a massive land border which is easily penetratable, especially coming south from Canada into the US. Mexico gets the press, but the number one spot of entry for KGB illegals was through Vancouver.

Totally cutting off immigration would not stop any problems. Heavily restricting immigration wouldn't stop problems.

 

[brothern]

I'm not saying close down borders to recreational travel. I'm saying close down immigration and workers' visas.

Again, your idea would have a devastating effect. We no longer live in an isolated-American world.

Just as a personal example, my reporting chain at work spans 3 continents. My boss is in Singapore and I have direct reports in the United Kingdom. My team's effectiveness, and my larger company, depends on having open immigration and large amounts of workers' visa or else we'd fail as a company. How else would I be able to short-term staff one of our locations if you banned immigration and worker's visas - Hire a new person for 6 months and then get rid of them?

You'd absolutely destroy the economy!

As far as artificial identities...these identities exist, whether we have borders or not. You also have to have some controls, or you lose control. Just look how unmitigated immigration worked out for the Native Americans.

Except that Europeans were conquerors and believed Native Americans were neither deserving of human rights, nor actually human. Which is not a parallel to today's world.

Again, we don't shut our doors. We would still have world trade and travel (I actually believe in trade with everyone to include Iran and Cuba and such). I think you're misunderstanding my point in meaning that we should close ourselves off like North Korea or something.

You cannot trade freely at the same time as closing down immigration. Trade does not happen without relationships, market insight, or the ability of employees to work and live in a different countries.
It just does not happen.

 

[Tigerace117]

What does a stupid immigration policy of your government have to do with me? I am not going to let anyone make me a subject of any debate.

And my opinions stand alone - right or wrong. If wrong, show me if you can.

The "stupid immigration policy" is the only reason your polluting my country right now. Ungrateful much :roll:

 

[brothern]

That aside, why would you be outraged if we stopped all immigration for a period of time?

Immigrants of all skill levels are a resource.

... and it'd probably destroy my employer.

 

[legalimmigrant]

That may be true for some, but not for most. Their here because they want to get their families to America, so their brother or cousin or kids aren't the next headless corpses hanging from the bridge or floating in the river, to get out of a place where a good half the time there's no point reporting a crime because the police are on the cartel's payroll and won't do ****, to get to a country where even the most desperately poor still have better living standards then many other countries.

Please, cut that out. All immigration to the U.S. is economic. All of it - including mine. Anything else is just a pretext. Like, "I am gay and I am scared. I also have AIDS and I need your drugs - for free."

Give me a break with all that oppressed crap. There are 6 billion people out there who can claim oppression of some kind if you dangle a U.S. green card in front of their smiling faces.

 

[Visbek]

And the march to the suicide cliff goes on...

1,037 Syrian Refugees Admitted in May: Two Christians, 1,035 Muslims

OMG NOOOOOO! MUSLIMS WILL KILL US ALL!!!!

What nonsense. It's no different than Protestants putting the hate on Catholic immigrants a few decades ago.

Illegal immigration has exploded 57 percent in less than two years....

Thanks for the selective statistics.

Or, maybe they're just wrong. Illegal immigration declined around 2007, due to the recession, and has flatlined since.

In an analysis of the numbers, the Center for Immigration Studies....

CIS is thoroughly biased on the topic, and basically untrustworthy. Find another source.

 

[Tigerace117]

Please, cut that out. All immigration to the U.S. is economic. All of it - including mine. Anything else is just a pretext. Like, "I am gay and I am scared. I also have AIDS and I need your drugs - for free."

Give me a break with all that oppressed crap. There are 6 billion people out there who can claim oppression of some kind if you dangle a U.S. green card in front of their smiling faces.

:roll:

Once again---that's why they are working in this country. They need the cash to provide for their families, either to get them to this country or to provide for them once they are in this country.

 

[JANFU]

I'd argue that if a person or group of people face certain death in the home countries---not just looking for better working conditions, but as in "they and their families will die if they stay" then a country has a moral obligation to take them in, so long as it's through legal channels.

Part of the reason Hitler eventually turned to the idea of killing all the Jews, instead of just stealing their stuff and kicking them out, was because nobody wanted to take that many immigrants, especially of a different faith.

Hitler proved conclusively that no one, European, North America, or South America wanted Jews.
The immigration policies of many of these countries penalized Jews.
Canada was no different. One book on this is None is to many. It shows how it was easier for an ex SS soldier, scar tissue from the removal of the blood group tattoo under the left arm, to enter Canada thru the immigration laws.

 

[AlbqOwl]

OMG NOOOOOO! MUSLIMS WILL KILL US ALL!!!!

What nonsense. It's no different than Protestants putting the hate on Catholic immigrants a few decades ago.

Thanks for the selective statistics.

Or, maybe they're just wrong. Illegal immigration declined around 2007, due to the recession, and has flatlined since.

CIS is thoroughly biased on the topic, and basically untrustworthy. Find another source.

There are no reliable numbers because those who break the law are pretty good at not broadcasting that they are breaking the law. So no matter whose source you use, it is probably going to indicate numbers quite a bit lower than they actually are. And your 'flat line' is also pretty iffy. When the NY Times, arguably one of the most left leaning and pro illegal immigration major media sources, questions it, we all should.

Reported in 2013:

. . .About 11.7 million immigrants are living in the United States illegally, a population that has not varied much over the last three years but may recently be increasing again, according to new estimates published Monday by the Pew Research Center Hispanic Trends Project. . .

As lawmakers in Washington debate an immigration overhaul that could include a pathway to legal status or citizenship for millions of unauthorized immigrants, the figures from the nonpartisan Pew Center are regarded by many demographers as the most reliable estimates of the number of people who might be eligible for those programs.

The new estimates, which are based on the most recent census data and other official statistics, show that the population of immigrants here illegally did not decline significantly from 2009 to 2012, despite record numbers of about 400,000 deportations each year and stepped-up border enforcement by the Obama administration as well as laws to crack down on illegal immigration in states like Alabama, Arizona and Georgia. . . .
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/u...hows-signs-of-growth-estimates-show.html?_r=0​

Think of it. A record 400K deportations did not significantly reduce the overall estimated numbers. Wouldn't that suggest that a whole bunch of people are still coming across the border illegally every year?

And give me any good reason how this helps our current very high unemployment situation or the lower wages plaguing many if not most American families.

 

[Fishking]

IIn case you missed it, everyone who isn't Native American is an immigrant. We are a nation of immigrants. We have made a choice to make our borders relatively (but not absolutely) open.

Even the Native Americans immigrated from somewhere. Just because it happened further back in history doesn't change that dynamic. That aside, how did immigration work out for the native population? With ethnic cleansing and such, yes? So there is a reality to restricting immigration.

The "horror" isn't in restricting immigration. It is:

• Treating immigrants like they are subhuman
• Depriving immigrants of other rights, such as due process
• Racist and/or xenophobic objections by some to immigration

E.g. it's not horrifying to suggest that we should limit the US to 1 million or 2 million legal immigrants per year. It is horrifying to vilify all Muslims, and insist that "no Muslims should be allowed to enter the US under any circumstances."

Agreed. I don't support targeted immigration bans, either. All that would do is put mechanisms in place that would enable the government to target other groups, when the "need" is seen fit. Also, a free society will inevitably have some inherent risk.

 

[legalimmigrant]

:roll:

Once again---that's why they are working in this country. They need the cash to provide for their families, either to get them to this country or to provide for them once they are in this country.

And all that is my problem how? Never mind.

How many of those who "need the cash to provide for their families" are you willing to admit here?

There are 6 billion waiting for your verdict.

 

[Fishking]

Confessing I did not read the entire thread so this may be repetitious.

IMO the ONLY reason to allow immigration is to bring in people that are NEEDED for our own economy. That means that all who come as immigrants on a path to citizenship will enter legally and will have a sponsor and a job waiting for them. There can be a few other humanitarian reasons such as allowing a person to bring his/her non-citizen spouse or child here, but not the whole family including parents, inlaws, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and shirttail relatives such as is the case under current lenient policies. Anyone admitted on a path to citizenship should be able to complete the requirements for citizenship and be sworn in say within 2 or 3 years of admission. If they turn out to be undesirables during that time they can be deported.

In ALL cases, new immigrants should pledge allegiance to our flag and Constitution, should learn sufficient English that all government business can be done in English making forms and instructions in more than one language unnecessary. They should learn and obey our laws and not expect to change our existing culture into whatever it was they left behind.

In cases of high unemployment and resulting low wages, the immigration gate should be kept closed.

Pretty much in full agreement here. I believe that there is currently no need for immigrants. Maybe in the future that will change but we are not lacking for people to fill various jobs or positions (aside from some specific trade industries [e.g. specialty welders]).