Why is abortion acceptable?

[Rickeroo]

If someone 'cant afford' a child that's a concrete thing. Either they have the $ or they dont. You dont know how many other dependents or obligations a woman has. Most women who have abortions already have at least one child.

Has nothing to do with self-esteem.

And parenting WELL is very difficult, one of the hardest things to do well in life. Most parents go into it afraid. Why should a woman that's not yet ready, take that chance and end up doing more harm than good? Has nothing to do with self-esteem and more to do with being mature enough to know where you are in life.

Abortion is a very responsible choice:

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you cant afford and expecting tax payers to take up that burden with public assistance.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you arent emotionally prepared to have and may abuse or neglect.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid if you know you wont stop drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc that will damage the unborn.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant and dropping out of high school or college or missing work and not fulfilling your potential in society.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid and giving it up for adoption when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting to be adopted. It means one less waiting will find a home.​

You bring up valid points. To zero in on the "not afford" aspect - there was a time when a man could afford a family on a single salary. This wasn't very liberating to women though, so 'women in the workforce' bid up housing prices. Two-salary homes became a necessity. Mom works, so where to put the kid? Daycare: paying for the privilege for someone else to raise your child. "Liberated" women get to pay less attention to children in order to serve their corporate masters in the workplace. Single motherhood is championed, marriage is spat upon. Children (life) are looked at as an inconvenience - there are more important things in life.

Then again, I may be biased. The wife and I had no desire to spend more than twice our salary on a house, no desire to work the same exact hours - indeed no desire to work full time. I get the impression that these days, people feel that overspending on a house and leaving the house without a parent in it all day is the "normal" thing to do.

Were we to take the consumerist route, as I suspect most do, we'd be serving the banks and corporate America, not our kids. Indeed, if banks, corporations and the institution of single motherhood are to be served first - then I agree that children must take a backseat.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

He is. That's why I am here.

You are failing miserably. Your hate and disrespect of women's lives is clear and the Lord by no means feels that way about any of His children, including pregnant women that make difficult decisions in the best interest of their own lives and the lives of their family/dependents current and future.

The Lord does not promote hate. You are as far from representing His Word as Satan.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

God did not direct me to go to those churches for His guidance and understanding of His will and His Word.

But He directed you to sit on your couch and post hate and lies on the Internet? Where you are safe and can express your unfounded self-righteous outrage without consequences? With complete disregard for the women who would be impacted *if your hate and disrespect* actually were accepted by any rational people?

 

[Lursa]

Were we to take the consumerist route, as I suspect most do, we'd be serving the banks and corporate America, not our kids. Indeed, if banks, corporations and the institution of single motherhood are to be served first - then I agree that children must take a backseat.

Actually, it's about women as a whole in our society AND society to which the unborn must take a backseat. Ethically and legally. There are no negative effects of abortion on society (unless you can list them for me).

I value the unborn, but I value all born people more. Our laws and our society reflect this in common for the most part.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Murder has no negative effects on society? I do not agree. Here is what God said concerning the violent deaths of the unborn:

22. If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit (fetus) depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life.
Exodus 21.

How does that prove that, in your mind, abortion (not murder) has negative effects on society?

 

[Lursa]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Murder has no negative effects on society? I do not agree. Here is what God said concerning the violent deaths of the unborn:

22. If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit (fetus) depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life.
Exodus 21.

So...what are the negative affects on society? We're talking about abortion, not murder. Try to give a straight answer please, you will have to ask the Lord's forgiveness for all your lies at some point and it's going to be very time consuming.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Men: Have the right to ask their wives what they want.

Women: Have the right to make their own decisions.

Unborn babies: Have no frikken rights whatsoever.

That's correct. Do you think if your unborn had communicated to your wife that it wanted to die, your wife should have had an abortion? No? Why not?

 

[year2late]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Christianity Today demonstrates that it lacks wisdom from God.

You demonstrate that you disrespect Christians except if the interpret the Bible in the same way you do.

 

[OKgrannie]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Everybody has choices. God handles the consequences.

But you so badly want to help God deal out punishment for women! Women are accepting of the consequences God deals out, but not so much those of the ignorant and controlling.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

True. There are health risks which threaten pregnant women.

Do you believe women should have to take those significant risks to their health and life against their will?

Do you believe that the life and health of the unborn is more important than that of the women?

I hope your response doesnt reduce the unborn to just numbers, that would be very dehumanizing.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

But you so badly want to help God deal out punishment for women! Women are accepting of the consequences God deals out, but not so much those of the ignorant and controlling.

I came to your conclusion also, and this is kind of the process I found that proved it in general for pro-life people.

Interestingly enough...I've discovered a pretty clear dividing line for "acceptable" for pro-life people. It's viewed the same very very frequently.

++If it's the woman's 'fault' she got pregnant (she enjoyed sex, her birth control failed, etc.) then she should not be allowed to have an abortion.

++If it wasnt her fault (rape, severe medical issues, incest as a minor) then she should be allowed to have an abortion.

So what we can see here is that:

--obviously most pro-life people do not view the unborn as equal... If the unborn was truly equal, you could not terminate it's life in cases of rape or incest or even the mother's life to some extent. (THere are a few pro-life people that do believe you cannot terminate the unborn in these circumstances and at least they are consistent.)

-- most pro-life people care more about judging and punishing a woman than they care for that 'innocent life'. (yeah, considering it punishment because the unborn is frequently referred to as a 'consequence')

So IMO the dividing line re: abortion for pro-life supporters has nothing to do with the unborn, it's all about the woman and how they judge her culpability in the pregnancy.​

 

[OKgrannie]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

I came to your conclusion also, and this is kind of the process I found that proved it in general for pro-life people.

Interestingly enough...I've discovered a pretty clear dividing line for "acceptable" for pro-life people. It's viewed the same very very frequently.

++If it's the woman's 'fault' she got pregnant (she enjoyed sex, her birth control failed, etc.) then she should not be allowed to have an abortion.

++If it wasnt her fault (rape, severe medical issues, incest as a minor) then she should be allowed to have an abortion.

So what we can see here is that:

--obviously most pro-life people do not view the unborn as equal... If the unborn was truly equal, you could not terminate it's life in cases of rape or incest or even the mother's life to some extent. (THere are a few pro-life people that do believe you cannot terminate the unborn in these circumstances and at least they are consistent.)

-- most pro-life people care more about judging and punishing a woman than they care for that 'innocent life'. (yeah, considering it punishment because the unborn is frequently referred to as a 'consequence')

So IMO the dividing line re: abortion for pro-life supporters has nothing to do with the unborn, it's all about the woman and how they judge her culpability in the pregnancy.​

Exactly! And I think it is pretty easy to identify the "punishment" pro-lifers. They are the ones who inevitably say some version of "she shouldn't have spread her legs."

 

[marke]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

But you so badly want to help God deal out punishment for women! Women are accepting of the consequences God deals out, but not so much those of the ignorant and controlling.

I have no interest in punishing anyone. When it comes to abortion my interest is in protecting the beating heart of the unborn baby.

 

[marke]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Do you believe women should have to take those significant risks to their health and life against their will?

What risks women take in whatever they do is their business.

Do you believe that the life and health of the unborn is more important than that of the women?

I do not believe the interests of the wife are of lesser importance than the interests of the husband, and so forth. I do not believe the interests of the unborn baby are of lesser importance than the interests of the mother blessed of God to be having a baby.

I hope your response doesnt reduce the unborn to just numbers, that would be very dehumanizing.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

What risks women take in whatever they do is their business.


I do not believe the interests of the wife are of lesser importance than the interests of the husband, and so forth. I do not believe the interests of the unborn baby are of lesser importance than the interests of the mother blessed of God to be having a baby.

Then you are pro-choice then, of course.

There is no way to stop abortion, legally or illegally, without forcing women to take those risks against their will. Women may choose to do so, or not.

It's not possible to protect both's interests or rights (imagined in the case of the unborn) equally.

 

[OKgrannie]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

I have no interest in punishing anyone. When it comes to abortion my interest is in protecting the beating heart of the unborn baby.

No, your interest is in forcing a woman to protect the "unborn baby". It is not possible for you to protect any unborn. You are veering out of the territory of managing your OWN morals into attempting to manage a woman's.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Someone has been guzzling the spiked Kool-Aid at the devil's tribal barbarian hedonist bash.

Nope. Just common sense coupled with a bit of logic.

 

[marke]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

No, your interest is in forcing a woman to protect the "unborn baby". It is not possible for you to protect any unborn. You are veering out of the territory of managing your OWN morals into attempting to manage a woman's.

Pregnant women are not exempt from laws against violence and murder.

 

[OKgrannie]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Pregnant women are not exempt from laws against violence and murder.

Abortion is not violence or murder. And pregnant women are in charge of their own bodies. It does not make you more "moral" when you attempt to force someone else to behave in the way you think is "moral."

 

[Irwin Corey]

- I just find it odd how some people can morally justify aborting a pre-birth baby that could live outside the womb, yet find aborting a baby after birth murder.

- IMO if you morally can justify aborting a fetus that is 9-months old, viable to be born

- I have received pm's here that said I shouldn't be discussing abortion because I am a man.

"I" find it odd reprehensible that conservatives defend the sanctity of life right up until the baby is born then, as far as they are concerned, the mother and child can eat **** and die.

Generally, in the US, abortion is an option from very early pregnancy (somewhere between 4-6 weeks, depending on where you go) until about 24 weeks. Abortions are available later than 24 weeks only in rare cases for medical reasons.

How far along can you be to get an abortion?

So, you're actually switching up the argument from "Why is abortion acceptable?" in general to "Why is abortion acceptable?" in rare cases when it's medically prudent like when the fetus is deformed and it's long term viability highly questionable or when the mothers life is in danger.

Lets address the "general" case first; IMHO abortion became acceptable when society realized that our Mothers, Sisters, Wives and Daughters were being butchered in dirty back rooms with coat hangers. I think for that reason alone abortion will remain legal.

As far as the "rare case" for medical reasons; those abortions were being carried out, long before abortion was legal generally, for the good reason of preventing infant suffering and/or saving the life of the mother.

I'm a man and an AmeriCAN, I think we have a say in this battle for the well being of our female loved ones.

 

[Irwin Corey]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Nope. Just common sense coupled with a bit of logic.

And zero humanity.

 

[KevinKohler]

Why is it tolerated?



Because in a free society, its necessary.

 

[Rickeroo]

Actually, it's about women as a whole in our society AND society to which the unborn must take a backseat. Ethically and legally. There are no negative effects of abortion on society (unless you can list them for me).

I value the unborn, but I value all born people more. Our laws and our society reflect this in common for the most part.

One could argue both positive and negative effects - Imagine the impact on society if Louis Pasteur or Hitler were aborted. Of course, most people don't have such a dramatic effect on society and these are outliers. However, it is proof of concept that some people (and therefore their earlier fetal stage) are more valuable to society. Imagine a white fetus that will very likely grow into a white male if not aborted. On average, this fetus will grow into someone with a relatively high income from which to draw taxes from to redistribute to poor people "of color". However, they are also more likely to vote republican and want to destroy the earth (and their white children) with global warming and pollution.

Now imagine a black fetus that would most likely grow into a black male. On average, lower income and and higher crime rate. However, this could be balanced by the fact that "diversity" would increase, and he would most likely (90%) vote democrat, which would help save the planet.

The permutations when considering the societal effects (positive or negative) of aborting one's own child would be complex and limited by current technology, but even so, politicians may be able to put it to good use in present day.

 

[minnie616]

One could argue both positive and negative effects - Imagine the impact on society if Louis Pasteur or Hitler were aborted. Of course, most people don't have such a dramatic effect on society and these are outliers. However, it is proof of concept that some people (and therefore their earlier fetal stage) are more valuable to society. Imagine a white fetus that will very likely grow into a white male if not aborted. On average, this fetus will grow into someone with a relatively high income from which to draw taxes from to redistribute to poor people "of color". However, they are also more likely to vote republican and want to destroy the earth (and their white children) with global warming and pollution.

Now imagine a black fetus that would most likely grow into a black male. On average, lower income and and higher crime rate. However, this could be balanced by the fact that "diversity" would increase, and he would most likely (90%) vote democrat, which would help save the planet.

The permutations when considering the societal effects (positive or negative) of aborting one's own child would be complex and limited by current technology, but even so, politicians may be able to put it to good use in present day.

Abortions have been around since before the early Greek days.

Your assumptions make no sense since about 2 out every 3 fertilized human eggs either pass right through the body or self abort within the first week of implantation. Another 15 to 20 of known pregnancies ( where the woman is aware she is pregnant ) end in natural miscarriage.

 

[marke]

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Abortion is not violence or murder. And pregnant women are in charge of their own bodies. It does not make you more "moral" when you attempt to force someone else to behave in the way you think is "moral."

If people could see a D&C abortion, which most cannot since the secularist government generally does not allow that kind of truth to be demonstrated, they would not claim it is not violent and bloody.