Why do some Democrats not want Bernie as their nominee?

[Cynical]

Perhaps we instead want a huge investment in improving public education, including up to advanced degrees, that people can pursue at an actually affordable cost. Some variant of one of Europe's many models would be nice.

From what I have been learning about what other countries do regarding education is that students are tracked based on test scores, which is indeed a logical approach. In other words only a small percentage goes the traditional four year college route. What most Democrats want is to simply throw money at our current four+ years college system and continue to push as many people into that system as possible. What we all need to do is recognize that this current approach to higher education is that we have an arcane, archaic system that takes too long, costs too much and had little practical value for most of its consumers.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Hillary was as competent and prepared to function in government candidate as we have had in years. She was just a lousy candidate with a lousy campaign staff and you have to win the Election to run anything. Don't want to hear about her winning the popular vote either. They all knew the game or should have. Some of them apparently didn't know the score.

As for Hilary "beloved". In some circles, likely. Generally, I would say NO.

Take a look at this link and tell me what you think:

Hillary Clinton Maintains Near Record-High Favorability

Donald Trump loved Hillary until she ran against him. The notion that Klobuchar won’t be put through the ringer and polarized similarly is pure fantasy.

 

[jnug]

Take a look at this link and tell me what you think:

Hillary Clinton Maintains Near Record-High Favorability

Donald Trump loved Hillary until she ran against him. The notion that Klobuchar won’t be put through the ringer and polarized similarly is pure fantasy.

I did not see "beloved" anywhere in that piece. IMO, in that category Michelle Obama blew Hilary's doors entirely off. Hilary now is not even the Grand Dame of the party.

 

[jnug]

Generally speaking I think Dems and some Independents will like me vote for a dump truck with a D on the door to get Trump out of the WH and I would include Bernie in that.

However, the question is can Bernie attract enough of the Independents. Also for all the noise they make, the younger crowd is yet to really come out and vote and without them in big numbers Bernie's goose is cooked in a general election.

The drivers for Dem voters in the primaries IMO have nothing to do with how they will vote in the General. They will vote for ANYTHING with a D on its back in the General.

I should qualify this a bit. It is certainly still a question whether the Bernie Bros have learned their lesson from 2016. If there is one group within the Dem Party that might just pick up their marbles in a huff and go home if their candidate does not make it to the nomination, its the Bernies. Still a question for that matter if Bernie will pull another Bernie in 2020 if he is not the nominee regardless of what he says today.

 

[Dans La Lune]

I did not see "beloved" anywhere in that piece. IMO, in that category Michelle Obama blew Hilary's doors entirely off. Hilary now is not even the Grand Dame of the party.

“Clinton receives a 91% favorable rating among Democrats, 65% among independents, and 41% among Republicans.“

 

[Paradoxical]

An open discussion on the reasons why some Democrats don't want Bernie as the nominee. What does he stand for that you don't? What will the future of the Democratic Party look like if he wins the nomination? Why do you not want him as your nominee? Please discuss.

I think that today's Democrats are in serious disarray and are floundering. They won't admit it openly. James Carville admitted it for them. But, the way the human brain works is that it has a disconnect with reality and they put their wants and needs ahead of everything else and ignore the truth. They want equality and can;t really explain just what that means or the end result of everyone being equal but they go for a candidate who claims he believes in equality. They want for their to be no poor people and have no answers for what you do about deadbeats and malcontents and go for a candidate promises to throw even more money at cities that have received billions and are still impoverished. In short, IMHO, Democrats look good on paper and in theory but ignore the realities of the makeup of humans.

They want Socialism lite but they know that socialism has not worked in any populated country and that it won't sell, Bernie, for all his faults, at least admits he is a socialist. Except for a short stint as a carpenter, he hasn't worked a day in his life. People have a hard time explaining what you do with someone like a Bernie Sanders who would be broke if he wasn't lucky to have gotten into politics. What do you do with socialists who just don't feel like working? They know that as much as they love government it really is inept and cannot run an oil company, electric company, bank, etc.

They want some kind of hybrid though. They want certain companies taken over like electric companies and when electricity costs a thousand a month, they have no answers and shrug. They don't want Bernie because he is telling the truth and Trump will wipe the floor with his failed ideas come November and they know it. They don't want "progressivism" to be outed as socialism lite.

 

[jnug]

“Clinton receives a 91% favorable rating among Democrats, 65% among independents, and 41% among Republicans.“

You used the term "beloved". I don't know where you got that from but I don't think that term applies. If there is any Dem that is beloved its Michelle Obama.

Myself, I would prefer that both Bill and Hilary book a flight on one of Musk's rockets and get the hell out of here. Neither is an asset any longer. Time has past Bill by and I just do not know what function Hilary fulfills any longer. She had a chance to fight and didn't when she had it.

Where were her campaign aids when Trump was looming over her during their debate. Why didn't anybody tell her to back that boorish Neanderthal off her back. They had to see it. Everybody else did. Where was she when she needed to return to the battleground states.

Both of them should just get on a Musk rocket and get the hell out.

 

[Dans La Lune]

You used the term "beloved".

She had Trump level support among Democrats, favorability among independents, and even positive numbers among Republicans.

I don't know where you got that from but I don't think that term applies. If there is any Dem that is beloved its Michelle Obama.

According to Gallup in 2012, Hillary was as high as 69% compared to Michelle Obama's ~65%.

Michelle Obama Remains Popular in U.S.

And also in 2015:

Clinton Most Admired Woman for Record 20th Time

 

[jnug]

She had Trump level support among Democrats, favorability among independents, and even positive numbers among Republicans.



According to Gallup in 2012, Hillary was as high as 69% compared to Michelle Obama's ~65%.

Michelle Obama Remains Popular in U.S.

And also in 2015:

Clinton Most Admired Woman for Record 20th Time

Admired and beloved are not the same things. Get a good dictionary.

As for her "popularity" at election time. HRC LOST to one of the most despicable candidates in history. There is only winning or losing. If there is one place were the participation trophy does not apply, its politics.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Admired and beloved are not the same things. Get a good dictionary.

Beloved Synonyms, Beloved Antonyms | Thesaurus.com

Why would you choose this hill to die on?

 

[Lisa]

Hillary was beloved until she ran.

No, she wasn't beloved. Hillary has always been a divisive person. Her centrist corporate stance has never made her popular will many democrats.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Where? National Grid and Con Ed have the lock on NY.

ConEd is "an investor owned" energy company, just like California's PG&E.

LILCO (Long Island Lighting Company), on the other hand, was an investor-owned electric utility which foundered so badly that after Hurricane Sandy, it finally was taken over by a public utility consortium called the Long Island Power Authority.
National Grid is also a publicly owned utility group as well. It took over after LILCO's disastrous infrastructure woes finally became too much.

National Grid isn't providing electric service in Long Island, it owns the wire infrastructure.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

No, she wasn't beloved. Hillary has always been a divisive person. Her centrist corporate stance has never made her popular will many democrats.

Thing is, she's a policy wonk, but it's always been her personality that grated on people the most.

 

[Lisa]

Thing is, she's a policy wonk, but it's always been her personality that grated on people the most.

She is very intelligent and politically astute but she is not a warm fuzzy person.

 

[holbritter]

ConEd is "an investor owned" energy company, just like California's PG&E.

LILCO (Long Island Lighting Company), on the other hand, was an investor-owned electric utility which foundered so badly that after Hurricane Sandy, it finally was taken over by a public utility consortium called the Long Island Power Authority.
National Grid is also a publicly owned utility group as well. It took over after LILCO's disastrous infrastructure woes finally became too much.

National Grid isn't providing electric service in Long Island, it owns the wire infrastructure.

That's Long Island, which represents very little of NY. Con Ed supplies most of the city and National Grid supplies the majority of Upstate, or at least the northeast part of Upstate. I had forgotten about LILCO being taken over. It was still LILCO when I left.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

That's Long Island, which represents very little of NY. Con Ed supplies most of the city and National Grid supplies the majority of Upstate, or at least the northeast part of Upstate. I had forgotten about LILCO being taken over. It was still LILCO when I left.

LOL you make it sound like L.I. is a town of 30,000.
Long Island comprises seven million souls!

 

[bave]

---Enough with the idiotic Trump talking points about NATO. The guy wants to eliminate NATO, hence the BS talking points.

NATO isn't a real entity by and large anymore. The main economies behind NATO are unable to field any real military strength with a few exceptions. Germany's airforce can't field two combat squadrons atm. France ran out of munitions in a week bombing Libya a few years ago. What's the point of NATO if we are the ones doing all the lifting and spending?

-
And you don't know jack about how smart kids in college are, so I'll just ignore your BS Archie Bunker screeds that feature the usual whining about "liberal arts" and "useless degrees".
Get this straight Jack...our kids will need to learn high tech skills, and you can't get that in charm school, or the Boy Scouts, or at Hamburger U, or Walmart. They're going to need to learn coding, AI, robotics and all the rest of the STEM curriculae.

Ok, reality check sport. Read what I said. In the EU college is free for the top 10% of students in selected degrees. Those degrees are exactly what you just mentioned, hard sciences. They aren't giving you a free ride to Munich-U to study fine art history or anthropology. Furthermore, 90% of the population of the world is simply not smart enough to hack CS, applied math, robotic engineering, or even most of the STEM courses. It is really the basic limitation of the IQ curve. If you want to be a CV, you probably need a 110 IQ, to be a CE you need a 120. Applied math/CS/Robotic Engineering, probably 120 and higher.

What we need to do is realize that the middle chunk of the bell curve, 90-110 IQ's need real employable skills. We need to stop lying to them, their parents, and ourselves about what their realistic goals should be.

-
And the ones who ARE NOT smart enough, aren't smart enough because people like you teach them Trump values.
That's on you. YOUR kids might not be smart enough...that's your problem.

It's genetics sport. Dumb is dumb, the best schools and family in the world isn't going to get an even average kid to pound out an Applied Math degree, it just isn't in the cards. Look at the statistics for math proficiency for high school graduates. They can barely handle algebra, let alone advanced derivatives.

-
The trades are an excellent opportunity.
Maybe stop killing the trade UNIONS and you will see an uptick in the trades, because that is where you're SUPPOSED to go to learn them the right way.

Smell ya later, Sean Hannity guy.

Unions are actually often the best way to kill a trade. The problem is the bulk of union members are in fact unskilled and semi-skilled labor. Go look at why NYC is such a mess, trade unions are a good place to start. More importantly, they drive up the cost of labor to be non-competitive (read: UAW, USW). The real point is these jobs are open right now, with great wages, without unions. You don't need unions to get these good wages, benefits, and jobs you just need the people to do it.

 

[Metric Mouse]

NATO isn't a real entity by and large anymore. The main economies behind NATO are unable to field any real military strength with a few exceptions. Germany's airforce can't field two combat squadrons atm. France ran out of munitions in a week bombing Libya a few years ago. What's the point of NATO if we are the ones doing all the lifting and spending?

Interesting point. NATO was really set up to fight the USSR, which, news flash, isn't a thing anymore.

It was part of a 70 year old foreign policy plan that is 30 years out of date. Now Russia invades Ukraine, and no one blinks. Hell, how many of those countries are dependent in large part on the oil and gas that they buy from Russia? Few countries meet their defense spending agreements because they know that A: Russia is not a conventional threat to them.
B: the countries that Russia is going to try to influence and absorb (like the part of Ukraine) are going to be left blowing in the wind as long as the oil keeps flowing.

America making a stink about it is just Trump ranting loudly about things that were already happening, just quietly.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

...

I have identified your problem.
You have a tendency to pocket everyone in a category.
Reality check yourself...if a kid has the demonstrated grades and ambition, they deserve the chance to go to college.
I never said that I think it needs to be 100 percent universal, and while all the Dem candidates are gunning for that, when you sue someone for five thousand bucks, you start by demanding twenty, and the judge knocks it down to five.

Right now, education is not accessible enough to enough people who need and deserve it, it's that simple.
Training in the trades, you get a choice of several thousand equally expensive "trade schools", many of which have turned out to be overpriced boondoggles just a step or two away from Trump University, with little to no job placement assistance.

I was a member of IATSE Local 776, now known as IATSE Local 700, Motion Picture and Videotape Editor's Guild.
I received approximately six hundred hours of training from them gratis except for my monthly dues, which were $149 a month, a tiny fraction of my $2495 a week paycheck...in the 1980's.

So tell me all about how unions kill trades.



We are NOT MATCHING China, India, or any of the other countries today in terms of turning out skilled people. If you're so sure that we're all too stupid, then you may want to ask yourself how the country that was first to the Moon got there.
You guys have had forty years in charge for the most part. We have followed your Ayn Randian conservative ideals straight into the crapper.

We better start matching and surpassing these other countries or else we get to be Idiocracy forever.

 

[bave]

Interesting point. NATO was really set up to fight the USSR, which, news flash, isn't a thing anymore.

It was part of a 70 year old foreign policy plan that is 30 years out of date. Now Russia invades Ukraine, and no one blinks. Hell, how many of those countries are dependent in large part on the oil and gas that they buy from Russia? Few countries meet their defense spending agreements because they know that A: Russia is not a conventional threat to them.
B: the countries that Russia is going to try to influence and absorb (like the part of Ukraine) are going to be left blowing in the wind as long as the oil keeps flowing.

America making a stink about it is just Trump ranting loudly about things that were already happening, just quietly.

Agree on all points, my point is that given these truths we shouldn't be deploying our troops and assets to Europe to defend them, in theory, against the Russian Bear.

 

[bave]

I have identified your problem.
You have a tendency to pocket everyone in a category.
Reality check yourself...if a kid has the demonstrated grades and ambition, they deserve the chance to go to college.

Do you really think a top 10% student in this country doesn't get a chance? Any kid that is banging out 28's on ACTs and 1400s on their SATs is going to get a whole lot of scholarship/grant money for school.

Right now, education is not accessible enough to enough people who need and deserve it, it's that simple.
Training in the trades, you get a choice of several thousand equally expensive "trade schools", many of which have turned out to be overpriced boondoggles just a step or two away from Trump University, with little to no job placement assistance.

Simply false. Tons of trade programs and community college programs designed towards trades are very affordable and effective, they just can't get interest.

I was a member of IATSE Local 776, now known as IATSE Local 700, Motion Picture and Videotape Editor's Guild.
I received approximately six hundred hours of training from them gratis except for my monthly dues, which were $149 a month, a tiny fraction of my $2495 a week paycheck...in the 1980's.

So tell me all about how unions kill trades.

The film industry union? Lol. That's not a real union, its a corner of the world with a moat. Who are you competing against? Bollywood? There is so much money in entertainment it doesn't matter.

We are NOT MATCHING China, India, or any of the other countries today in terms of turning out skilled people. If you're so sure that we're all too stupid, then you may want to ask yourself how the country that was first to the Moon got there.
You guys have had forty years in charge for the most part. We have followed your Ayn Randian conservative ideals straight into the crapper.

We better start matching and surpassing these other countries or else we get to be Idiocracy forever.

It's called properly allocating resources. Do you think China is sending average students to university? Do you think they are providing comprehensive care to lost causes? That's the brutal edge of these countries, they make hard line numbers based decisions that will make you cry.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

Amy is not hated like Hillary is. And right now, we don't need another "charismatic entertainer" as President. We need a work horse who will clean up the mess Trump has made of things. She is a bread and butter candidate in my view. We need down to earth right now, no more chaos and turmoil.

Sanders has much more substance than Kloubacher. He has no corporate donors, he is not owned by any powerful lobbying groups. Sanders cares more about the little man than any other candidate. And Sanders is a much more inspiring public speaker and leader than Kloubacher. I have no doubt that he will totally bitch slap Trump on the debate stage.

Kloubacher just needs to go away, she is annoying as ****. And her involvement in Al Franken's resignation was also opportunistic bull****.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Tell me about the other moderates who "weren't quite as moderate as Joe Lieberman".
Ben Carson of Nebraska?
Zell Miller?

Who?
What you're refusing to recognize is the fact that moderates won't fight Mitch.

We will. We'll burn his ass down.
You need US, sorry...not the other way around.
Yeah, we need your votes but after forty years of watching you guys bend over, give the lefties a chance.
It doesn't matter if you don't give us a chance in 2020...we're eventually going to replace you anyway, because there aren't any 28 year old moderates waiting in the wings for the chance to become the next Tim Kaine.

So we can wait while you put up a moderate and get your ass beat by Twumpy, because you were afraid he would utter the radioactive S word. Of course four more years of Twumpy and it might take a civil war to fix it because by 2022 he's going to go ahead and give the order to start shooting Democrats anyway.
Who will stop him if he does? Tim Kaine? Hillary?

Try watching this...it's a humorous way of making the point.

I used to like you a lot. Suddenly, the feeling is going away.

So, you need our votes, but otherwise you can't stop expressing the utmost contempt for us.

Hint: that's not the best way to get our votes.

 

[Craig234]

No, she wasn't beloved. Hillary has always been a divisive person. Her centrist corporate stance has never made her popular will many democrats.

When she first entered public life as first lady, her reputation was more 'crazed leftist thrilled to get her hands on power'. An early story was about her desire to keep her maiden name - what a wild feminist. Little did people know.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Not winning the nomination does not preclude one from jumping aboard as running mate.
In fact it is sometimes the very reason such a move gets made, as history shows.
Therefore Liz could decide to withdraw or instead, connect with Bernie or with someone else if someone else wins the primary.

You didn't seem to understand my post. For the listed pairings, the first name is the presidential candidate, the second one is the veep. The times when I said a pairing won't work, for certain candidates (there are other reasons too that I listed) is when the first name of the pairing won't win the nomination therefore there will be no such pairing. The other way around, when that person is the veep, the pairing is there, if I think it works.

That's why I say, Biden and Warren would work, Buttigieg and Warren would work, but Warren (as the head of the ticket) and anybody else won't work, because she won't be the head of the ticket given that she won't win the nomination. Get it now?