Why do some Democrats not want Bernie as their nominee?

[GreatNews2night]

I studied for 5 years in a very prestigious, top European university to earn my PhD. Given that I benefit from dual citizenship (in addition to being American, I'm also a citizen of one of the major countries in the European Union) I paid the equivalent of US$13 per month, no kidding. I also had a child born there, with my wife running into major pregnancy complications that required five months of continuous care, and both her and the child needed intensive and expensive healthcare after the birth. I had an emergency myself and had to have surgery there. We didn't pay a cent for any of these services, which were rendered with no delay, no waiting lists, no rationing, and were performed with the utmost level of competent professionalism, all state-of-the-art (as confirmed by US doctors after we returned, all three duly restored to top-notch health).

So I fail to see all the failings and non-stop strikes that bave keeps talking about.

This is not to say that I think we can implement these things immediately or relatively fast in the United States and without major unintended consequences and horrible disruptions, which is why I am against the idea of Medicare For All and the end of private US health insurance, and in principle against the idea of free college for everybody.

But if we evolve slowly in the sense of approaching our system more to what is done in virtually all other developed Western countries, it's desirable. But not as fast and not as radically as Bernie and Warren want.

Like I said, I wouldn't be very worried about it either, because even if Bernie or Warren win the presidency, they will not get their pet projects approved by Congress anyway. The risk is small.

 

[bave]

So I fail to see all the failings and non-stop strikes that bave keeps talking about.

Your anecdote is just that.

The EU style healthcare systems are going to take decent care of a young person and a moderately struggling infant. However if you were older or that child more severely ill it would be a different story. Just as an easy metric, look at joint replacements and stent placements. They just don't authorize those procedures on 70+ year olds, it's economic math.

 

[Fishking]

Imagine this: You are party of a football fan club. Your club charges dues, works on fundraisers, and with that money sends a small group of members to each Superbowl. Those going are picked randomly from anyone in the club at the time. Just before the drawing to go, a guy joins, we will call him Bernie. He is not one of those chosen to go to the Superbowl, and after he finds out, leaves the club. Next year, after the rest of the members have been paying dues, working on fundraisers, just before the drawing, he shows up again to join the club so he can take part in the drawing to go to the Superbowl.

Is most of his ideology not the same as a significant portion of Democrats? I see your analogy but I'd look at it more like maybe there being a legal team that was put together to present a defense in court and someone joins late that is a better lawyer than the some of the other ones on the team. What is best for the defendant would be to have the new lawyer added to the team and have one of the less qualified ones removed.

Anyways...I see where you're coming from, and I don't disagree with it. I have similar feelings about various Republicans but also feel like I'm pulling a no true Scottsman fallacy. I'm always conflicted on the subject. Thanks for the answers.

 

[hermit]

It's going to transition more slowly because even if by some miracle Bernie got Dem supermajorities in both houses, he still will be lucky to get fifteen to twenty percent of what he wants anyway.

This is probably the best reason not to vote for Bernie. A waste of time.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

An open discussion on the reasons why some Democrats don't want Bernie as the nominee. What does he stand for that you don't? What will the future of the Democratic Party look like if he wins the nomination? Why do you not want him as your nominee? Please discuss.

I've been following politics pretty closely for about 25 years. Bernie Sanders, hands down, is the most inspiring public speaker that I've ever seen in a politician. The intensity and the anger in which he discusses America's problems and our rigged economy is powerful stuff. Sanders is the only politician that I have ever donated money to.

Assuming Putin does not steal the election for Trump, Sanders will be the next President. He is going to beat the living **** out of the Nazi Trump.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

My point on defense was that our social democracy peers don't spend on defense like we do, they don't even meet their NATO requirements generally.

As to education, IMO, half the kids in college ought not to be. They aren't smart enough, not driven enough, and don't want to actually learn a viable skill. They want an experience, paid for by someone else.

(THIS BELOW IN RED is BULLCRAP)


Here's the hard reality, too many young naive kids with poor parenting are going to overpriced schools for degrees that are hourly wage jobs.
Want to spend $200k on a social work degree? Neat, enjoy poverty. Want to go to Harvard for public education to teach finger painting? Good luck there.


Want a good paying job? Get a trade, but that involves actual work, outside n stuff. Diesel mechanics, welders, surveyors and a hundred other jobs have massive shortfalls and can't fill, despite $40/hr wages. Why? Snowflakes too good for those jobs.

---Enough with the idiotic Trump talking points about NATO. The guy wants to eliminate NATO, hence the BS talking points.
And they don't spend on defense because they do not possess a defense contractor INDUSTRY.
Name ONE SINGLE WAR since Korea (aside from Gulf War I) that was ever fought with a clearly defined objective and a plan for decisive victory and an after-plan that made sense.
You can't, because (A) none of them were actual wars, they were "authorized use of military force" or "managed conflicts" or "policing actions", and (B) A REAL WAR with a REAL OBJECTIVE has to be declared by Congress, thus it must have a specific objective, a deadline and a defined budget.
Real wars that are fought to be won are not popular with the defense industry for a reason, they aren't profitable.
This is precisely what Eisenhower warned about, so don't pester me with the crap about EU not spending on defense like we do.
They don't because they don't profit from wars.
And the "not meeting the NATO spending" bit was debunked a long time ago.

And you don't know jack about how smart kids in college are, so I'll just ignore your BS Archie Bunker screeds that feature the usual whining about "liberal arts" and "useless degrees".
Get this straight Jack...our kids will need to learn high tech skills, and you can't get that in charm school, or the Boy Scouts, or at Hamburger U, or Walmart. They're going to need to learn coding, AI, robotics and all the rest of the STEM curriculae.
Otherwise we wind up with a glut of Walmart greeters and french fry operators at Jack in the Box.

And the ones who ARE NOT smart enough, aren't smart enough because people like you teach them Trump values.
That's on you. YOUR kids might not be smart enough...that's your problem.

The trades are an excellent opportunity.
Maybe stop killing the trade UNIONS and you will see an uptick in the trades, because that is where you're SUPPOSED to go to learn them the right way.

Smell ya later, Sean Hannity guy.

 

[hermit]

I've been following politics pretty closely for about 25 years. Bernie Sanders, hands down, is the most inspiring public speaker that I've ever seen in a politician. The intensity and the anger in which he discusses America's problems and our rigged economy is powerful stuff. Sanders is the only politician that I have ever donated money to.

Assuming Putin does not steal the election for Trump, Sanders will be the next President. He is going to beat the living **** out of the Nazi Trump.

Trump is going to POUND Bernie because of the socialist angle. Bernie doesn't stand a chance. He's just a cult.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

This is probably the best reason not to vote for Bernie. A waste of time.

As compared to yet another "moderate" who will be punched, kicked and dragged around by the GOP as they laugh at more "bipartisanship".

Bipartisan THIS:

Twelve years of Mitch McConnell's nonsense is enough, and twelve years of watching Democrats being dragged further and further to the Right is enough. We'll be lucky if we managed to get back to the center, we're so far over to the Right as it is.
You guys ran a so called "moderate" in 2016. She lost, because she sucked.

If one of your so-called "moderates" wins the Dem nom, I'll vote for them but take this warning to heart:

The Republicans will destroy your moderate the way they attempted to destroy Obama.
In fact, they'll double their efforts, and they will return to win in 2024 and that will be the end of your dreams of "moderates" for at least a generation.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Trump is going to POUND Bernie because of the socialist angle. Bernie doesn't stand a chance. He's just a cult.

That only resonates with his base.
Look, Trumpers are now referring to Dwight Eisenhower as a communist, do you understand?
Running away in fear because Trump knows how to pronounce "socialist" and "communist" is pathetic.
Let Twumpy shoot his wad with the red-baiting.
It will be funny as Hell.

 

[Redress]

Is most of his ideology not the same as a significant portion of Democrats?

Similar, but no, I would not say the same. But I am not saying he is not a democrat because of his ideology.

I see your analogy but I'd look at it more like maybe there being a legal team that was put together to present a defense in court and someone joins late that is a better lawyer than the some of the other ones on the team. What is best for the defendant would be to have the new lawyer added to the team and have one of the less qualified ones removed.

Except that Sanders is asking for things from democrats, not giving back in any way.

Anyways...I see where you're coming from, and I don't disagree with it. I have similar feelings about various Republicans but also feel like I'm pulling a no true Scottsman fallacy. I'm always conflicted on the subject. Thanks for the answers.

It is not a "no true Scottsman". I am saying he is not a democrat, because the only time he wants to be a democrat, by his own choice and words, is when he wants something from democrats.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Yea, and that's the typical BernieBro response. However the reality is that the people who rabidly support Bernie are doing the math about paying a tiny bit more in taxes for massive government largesse.

Seeing as how Redress made a point of stating he is not a Bernie fan, it's clear that you don't even know what a Bernie Bro is.
You are also not aware that the consensus in 2020 is not pointing to the shrinking "Bro" segment but rather, to the ABT segment...Anyone But Trump.

I was a Bernie supporter in 2016. When Hillz won, I held my nose and pulled the H lever.
If Bernie loses again, I will hold my nose and vote for the nominee.

The so called "Bros" wasted my time and everyone else's in 2016...most of them either stayed home, or voted for Stein, or voted Bernie as a Write-In, or voted for Trump "to teach us a lesson".
They got taught a lesson instead. And the rest of us had to PAY for the lesson.
This time around it is clear that the so called "Bros" have shrunk almost to invisibility.

POLL: Are you or are you NOT a "Bernie Bro"?

Show me where the massive throng of Bernie Bros are, because from where I sit they're smaller than Trump's inaugural crowd in 2016. :lamo

 

[calamity]

An open discussion on the reasons why some Democrats don't want Bernie as the nominee. What does he stand for that you don't? What will the future of the Democratic Party look like if he wins the nomination? Why do you not want him as your nominee? Please discuss.

The wild-eyed socialist who identifies as an Independent? Gee, I cannot imagine why so many people in the Democratic Party do not want him as their nominee. :roll:

 

[Fishking]

Similar, but no, I would not say the same. But I am not saying he is not a democrat because of his ideology.

Except that Sanders is asking for things from democrats, not giving back in any way.

Presumably what he'd give to them is the presidency.

It is not a "no true Scottsman". I am saying he is not a democrat, because the only time he wants to be a democrat, by his own choice and words, is when he wants something from democrats.

But while he's a registered Democrat, for that short period of time, he's technically one. Anyways, I think we're at the end here. Thanks again for the answers. I don't disagree with you, but still have questions on exactly how it all pans out. Like...I'd say Trump isn't really a Republican as well. He was a Democrat for most of his life and I'd say pretty much a-political for the other part (so far as party affiliation). But here he is...a sitting Republican President.

 

[Redress]

Presumably what he'd give to them is the presidency.

No, the president is a person, not a party.

But while he's a registered Democrat, for that short period of time, he's technically one. Anyways, I think we're at the end here. Thanks again for the answers. I don't disagree with you, but still have questions on exactly how it all pans out. Like...I'd say Trump isn't really a Republican as well. He was a Democrat for most of his life and I'd say pretty much a-political for the other part (so far as party affiliation). But here he is...a sitting Republican President.

I disagree. Registering with the party just to get something quick is not being part of the party.

 

[aociswundumho]

The intensity and the anger in which he discusses America's problems and our rigged economy is powerful stuff.

The problem is he gets everything wrong. His answer for everything always comes down to centralizing more and more power with the national government.

 

[jpn]

The problem is he gets everything wrong. His answer for everything always comes down to centralizing more and more power with the national government.

He just wants us to look more like Denmark. Which is a pretty worthy nation to emulate.

 

[jnug]

The problem is he gets everything wrong. His answer for everything always comes down to centralizing more and more power with the national government.

Interesting observation since we currently have a President who is centralizing more and more power in one man, himself.

 

[aociswundumho]

He just wants us to look more like Denmark. Which is a pretty worthy nation to emulate.

Denmark has the highest taxes in the world. Over half of their income goes to the state, and on top of that they have a 25% vat on everything.

No thanks.

 

[aociswundumho]

Interesting observation since we currently have a President who is centralizing more and more power in one man, himself.

I'm sure you have plenty of evidence to support that assertion, so let's see some of it.

 

[braindrain]

We have been leaning to a Social Democratic mix overlaid on a Capitalist base for decades. Are we still here? How much more can Bernie do even as an avowed Democratic Socialist in 4 years?

DonDon is directly attacking the Constitution and the Republic. You can deny that all you want. It does not make it less true. As such DonDon represents a much greater threat to the country at this point than Bernie does. Its not even close. This is particularly true considering how much damage DonDon has done in just three years.

What do you think happens to the Imperial Trumpian Presidency if DonDon gets another 4 years? What, you don't think a royal ascendancy to DonDon Jr is not likely or to Queen Ivanka? In fact, a number of Trumpettes are likely drooling for that outcome.

You boys need to figure out that your pants are down around your ankles at this point. You're not fooling anybody.

You do realize that just because you make things up and repeat it over and over it doesn't make it any more true.

And it's funny to hear you whine about the possibility of another Trump becoming president. Tell me did you support Trump or Hillary in the last election. You do realize who Hillarys husband is right?

 

[hermit]

As compared to yet another "moderate" who will be punched, kicked and dragged around by the GOP as they laugh at more "bipartisanship".

Bipartisan THIS:

Twelve years of Mitch McConnell's nonsense is enough, and twelve years of watching Democrats being dragged further and further to the Right is enough. We'll be lucky if we managed to get back to the center, we're so far over to the Right as it is.
You guys ran a so called "moderate" in 2016. She lost, because she sucked.

If one of your so-called "moderates" wins the Dem nom, I'll vote for them but take this warning to heart:

The Republicans will destroy your moderate the way they attempted to destroy Obama.
In fact, they'll double their efforts, and they will return to win in 2024 and that will be the end of your dreams of "moderates" for at least a generation.

Take heart...AOC and the other young ones are coming up the ranks. They are the chosen ones to move this party forward. Let them handle it. Meanwhile, our country is hurting from all the chaos and instability of Hurricane Trump.

What we need right now, today, is to get this whirlwind to settle down a bit so we can see our way forward. One step at a time. AOC's time is coming.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Take heart...AOC and the other young ones are coming up the ranks. They are the chosen ones to move this party forward. Let them handle it. Meanwhile, our country is hurting from all the chaos and instability of Hurricane Trump.

What we need right now, today, is to get this whirlwind to settle down a bit so we can see our way forward. One step at a time. AOC's time is coming.

If you think AOC's time has nearly come then I don't understand your Bernie problem at all.
He's old??? Pffftttt, that guy will probably live past a hundred.

I WILL support whoever wins the nomination but I think, at least right now, that Bernie's time is now.
I guess we'll see.

 

[jpn]

Denmark has the highest taxes in the world. Over half of their income goes to the state, and on top of that they have a 25% vat on everything.

No thanks.

Yeah, I guess they are just more compassionate than our nation is. They make their choices and pay more up front to get more down the road. Education, health care, child care, you name it. People can't soar quite as high and as fast, but no one is left behind. Depends on your perspective and your values, doesn't it?

 

[hermit]

That only resonates with his base.
Look, Trumpers are now referring to Dwight Eisenhower as a communist, do you understand?
Running away in fear because Trump knows how to pronounce "socialist" and "communist" is pathetic.
Let Twumpy shoot his wad with the red-baiting.
It will be funny as Hell.

I have the feeling that there are plenty of voters out there who would be intimidated by the thought of voting for a socialist. Not every voter is ahead of the curve. There are plenty of people who really only care about their jobs and their families and paying their bills. That's the life they live and like. They don't want Bernie's futuristic society. Even if Bernie's society isn't too far down the road, it's still way too far for plenty of American citizens. That what I believe.

Not to mention that I don't think Big Business is ready to hand over the reins to a socialist. It just ain't gonna happen in today's terms. We need a candidate to help us with today's problems.

I would like to add, what I see Bernie doing that is very positive is that he is planting seeds of a better way to run the country. He is changing the dialogue, and that's quite a distinction.

 

[braindrain]

---Enough with the idiotic Trump talking points about NATO. The guy wants to eliminate NATO, hence the BS talking points.
And they don't spend on defense because they do not possess a defense contractor INDUSTRY.
Name ONE SINGLE WAR since Korea (aside from Gulf War I) that was ever fought with a clearly defined objective and a plan for decisive victory and an after-plan that made sense.
You can't, because (A) none of them were actual wars, they were "authorized use of military force" or "managed conflicts" or "policing actions", and (B) A REAL WAR with a REAL OBJECTIVE has to be declared by Congress, thus it must have a specific objective, a deadline and a defined budget.
Real wars that are fought to be won are not popular with the defense industry for a reason, they aren't profitable.
This is precisely what Eisenhower warned about, so don't pester me with the crap about EU not spending on defense like we do.
They don't because they don't profit from wars.
And the "not meeting the NATO spending" bit was debunked a long time ago.

And you don't know jack about how smart kids in college are, so I'll just ignore your BS Archie Bunker screeds that feature the usual whining about "liberal arts" and "useless degrees".
Get this straight Jack...our kids will need to learn high tech skills, and you can't get that in charm school, or the Boy Scouts, or at Hamburger U, or Walmart. They're going to need to learn coding, AI, robotics and all the rest of the STEM curriculae.
Otherwise we wind up with a glut of Walmart greeters and french fry operators at Jack in the Box.

And the ones who ARE NOT smart enough, aren't smart enough because people like you teach them Trump values.
That's on you. YOUR kids might not be smart enough...that's your problem.

The trades are an excellent opportunity.
Maybe stop killing the trade UNIONS and you will see an uptick in the trades, because that is where you're SUPPOSED to go to learn them the right way.

Smell ya later, Sean Hannity guy.

So was it a Trump talking point when Obama told other nato countries they needed to pull their own weight. Oh let me guess. That was different right.

And you do realize that bave was saying that it is foolish to be spending massive amounts of money going to college to learn skills that are not like the ones you just said we needed. That's exactly his point. We need those skills. Not useless degrees. Maybe you should actually read what people write instead of what you want them to write.