Which of the following do you think is reasonable gun control? (updated)

[Unitedwestand13]

Which is getting far away from your question:

So if there was a regulation or law that makes it hard for criminals to acquire firearms or ammo, while not harming your ability to protect yourself, would you be in favor of it?

The question is related to the reason why criminals would seek illegal means to acquire firearms.

The only way I see it is for criminals to fear purchasing legal guns because by doing so he exposes his prior acts would throw him in jail

 

[Cardinal]

Yet you still are dodging my questions why is it? Everything I said is sound

What is it you said that is sound, exactly? All I really caught is that those countries in my graph aren't America, which, I have to admit, is technically true.

and your chart doesn't disprove it at all because your chart is NOT based on what happens when you do what your plan in america.

How do you know?

You clearly don't understand stats.

I have fourteen PhD's in statistics.

But since you proved yourself uncivil, rude and unable to have an honest discussion

But I look fantastic in tight jeans.

on this topic there will be no discussions until you answer my question that you refuse.
So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow. Now what do you think magically happens?Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low and what bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.) What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons. (Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

I didn't say $50 bullets, but sure, if that's "prohibitive" for you, then let's go with that. The only problem with your question is that it assumes that $50 bullets was my only position. I'd go with all of the options in the thread's poll. I also said back on page two:

I would also add raising the price of ammunition so that it's prohibitively expensive, including the possible banning of the sale of firearms altogether. The main issue is the saturation of firearms throughout the country. Easier access to firearms = greater propensity for gun deaths. You certainly wouldn't see a dramatic impact right away considering that there are an estimated 300 million firearms in the country right now, but in a few years the restrictions would certainly take a bite of the ~8000 firearm-related homicides and 21,000 suicides per year.

 

[LaylaWindu]

<like I said all else will be ignored until you can prove worthy on this topic, only my question matters>

I didn't say $50 bullets, but sure, if that's "prohibitive" for you, then let's go with that. The only problem with your question is that it assumes that $50 bullets was my only position. I'd go with all of the options in the thread's poll. I also said back on page two:

I would also add raising the price of ammunition so that it's prohibitively expensive, including the possible banning of the sale of firearms altogether. The main issue is the saturation of firearms throughout the country. Easier access to firearms = greater propensity for gun deaths. You certainly wouldn't see a dramatic impact right away considering that there are an estimated 300 million firearms in the country right now, but in a few years the restrictions would certainly take a bite of the ~8000 firearm-related homicides and 21,000 suicides per year.

So I'll ask you AGAIN, since you didnt answer, why are you dodging. Maybe I have to separate each question for you.

So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. (or add banning guns which will never happen luckily) Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow.

Now what do you think magically happens?

Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low?

What bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.)?

What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons.

(Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

 

[Cardinal]

Statistically speaking you are incorrect. Since the huge push by the gun control crowd. Around 1986. Gun possession has increased dramatically, and gun related crime has decreased.

Crime is decreasing, and gun-related murders aren't keeping up with that decrease. Property crime for example has decreased 22.3% since 2000, while in that same period gun related crimes have dropped 15%. Your statement on increase in gun ownership doesn't specify the concentration of those firearms.

2000 property crime 10,181,462
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2000/00sec2.pdf
2016 property crime 7,919,035
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/property-crime
-22.3%

2000 firearm related murders 12,943
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2000
2016 firearm related murders 11005
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12
-15%

 

[Cardinal]

So I'll ask you AGAIN, since you didnt answer, why are you dodging. Maybe I have to separate each question for you.

So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. (or add banning guns which will never happen luckily) Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow.

Now what do you think magically happens?

Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low?

What bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.)?

What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons.

(Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

First, what is it you said that is "sound," exactly? All I really caught is that those countries in my graph aren't America, which, I have to admit, is technically true. But beyond that, I'm not sure what it is about that data that you refuted, exactly.

 

[Mach]

That kid would find a way to off himself. A gun ban isn't going to prevent that.

Filthy lies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/08/well/live/after-a-suicide-attempt-the-risk-of-another-try.html

The study also showed that the odds of successfully committing suicide are 140 times greater when a gun is used than for any other method. Dr. Bostwick said that most suicide attempts are “impulsive acts, and it’s critical to prevent access to tools that make impulsive attempts more deadly.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/

Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date.

Furthermore, most of the causes are entirely treatable, be it depression, a relationship loss, or family issues.
Someone using assisted suicide with a terminal illness, hint NOT ****ING TREATABLE.

 

[LaylaWindu]

First, what is it you said that is "sound," exactly? All I really caught is that those countries in my graph aren't America, which, I have to admit, is technically true. But beyond that, I'm not sure what it is about that data that you refuted, exactly.

So I'll ask you AGAIN, since you didnt answer, why are you dodging. Maybe I have to separate each question for you.

So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. (or add banning guns which will never happen luckily) Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow.

Now what do you think magically happens?

Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low?

What bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.)?

What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons.

(Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

 

[Cardinal]

So I'll ask you AGAIN, since you didnt answer, why are you dodging. Maybe I have to separate each question for you.

So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. (or add banning guns which will never happen luckily) Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow.

Now what do you think magically happens?

Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low?

What bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.)?

What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons.

(Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

Well, first of all the statistics answer several things:

1)Saturation of guns and gun-related deaths in stable democracies are correlated. Less guns and greater gun restrictions = fewer gun-related deaths. More guns and less restriction = greater gun-related deaths. One of the links I gave you had highly specific numbers, which I'm guessing you didn't see. You should check out the stats on Iceland versus the United States, as well as several descriptions of Iceland's laws with regards to guns.

What kind of gun laws exist in Iceland? | Iceland Review
Guns in Iceland ? Firearms, gun law and gun control

2)Black markets have clearly not set up shop in these countries, else you'd see a glaring break in correlation between gun ownership and gun-related deaths.

To your other points: I don't know what you do when your stock gets really low. Why would it get low in the first place, and do you suppose people in other stable democracies are terribly worried about their stocks getting really low? If not, why now?

 

[vesper]

I certainly don't desire the ban of guns but currently there is a practice of not regulating devices that can turn certain semi autos into operating as an automatic which is highly regulated under our current gun laws.

 

[LaylaWindu]

To your other points: I don't know what you do when your stock gets really low.

Like I told you I'm not interested in stats that don't mean anything to what happen here in the states and are meaningless.
Here we go again

So I'll ask you AGAIN, since you didnt answer, why are you dodging. Maybe I have to separate each question for you.

So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. (or add banning guns which will never happen luckily) Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow.

Now what do you think magically happens?

Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low?
Well of course it gets low or runs out because I can't afford $50 a bullet. So I tell you what I do. I keep a box of what I got now for an emergency and practice until the rest runs out. That wont last long. Now, me a law abiding citizen is in more danger with only one box of ammo and out of practice. That's nothign I want to be a part of.

What bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.)?

What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons.

(Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

 

[Cardinal]

Like I told you I'm not interested in stats that don't mean anything to what happen here in the states and are meaningless.

Why?

.......

 

[LaylaWindu]

Why?

.......

Here we go again

So I'll ask you AGAIN, since you didnt answer, why are you dodging. Maybe I have to separate each question for you.

So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. (or add banning guns which will never happen luckily) Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow.

Now what do you think magically happens?

Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low?
Well of course it gets low or runs out because I can't afford $50 a bullet. So I tell you what I do. I keep a box of what I got now for an emergency and practice until the rest runs out. That wont last long. Now, me a law abiding citizen is in more danger with only one box of ammo and out of practice. That's nothign I want to be a part of.

What bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.)?

What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons.

(Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

 

[jimbo]

Crime is decreasing, and gun-related murders aren't keeping up with that decrease. Property crime for example has decreased 22.3% since 2000, while in that same period gun related crimes have dropped 15%. Your statement on increase in gun ownership doesn't specify the concentration of those firearms.

2000 property crime 10,181,462
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2000/00sec2.pdf
2016 property crime 7,919,035
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/property-crime
-22.3%

2000 firearm related murders 12,943
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2000
2016 firearm related murders 11005
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12
-15%

Gun related crimes have decreased while gun ownership has increased.

Property crimes are a different issue, unless they involve guns. Which they usually don't.

 

[Cardinal]

Gun related crimes have decreased while gun ownership has increased.

Er...yes, but not very much, and certainly not with respect to other crime, as I already showed. And again, I'm not clear on the concentration of firearms, which means the connection between gun-related murders and the rise in ownership isn't especially clear. If the ownership is spread out across new buyers, that's one thing, but if it's essentially the same population hoarding more guns, that's quite another.

 

[jimbo]

Er...yes, but not very much, and certainly not with respect to other crime, as I already showed. And again, I'm not clear on the concentration of firearms, which means the connection between gun-related murders and the rise in ownership isn't especially clear. If the ownership is spread out across new buyers, that's one thing, but if it's essentially the same population hoarding more guns, that's quite another.

Depends on who and how you ask. And which poll.

Gun ownership is up in America. So why isn't the media telling you about it? | Fox News

In my view, there are two types of gun owners in the US. Active and passive. Passive are those who have a gun stashed in the closet. Often grandpas old 12 gauge or war souvenir. These are a no factor in a gun ownership debate.

The real issue is active owners. Those that own and use guns. One indicator is CC permits. Up by a factor of 4 since 1999. That's a solid non debatable number.

 

[Cardinal]

Depends on who and how you ask. And which poll.

Gun ownership is up in America. So why isn't the media telling you about it? | Fox News

In my view, there are two types of gun owners in the US. Active and passive. Passive are those who have a gun stashed in the closet. Often grandpas old 12 gauge or war souvenir. These are a no factor in a gun ownership debate.

The real issue is active owners. Those that own and use guns. One indicator is CC permits. Up by a factor of 4 since 1999. That's a solid non debatable number.

So in other words, you can't say. And therefore the statement that gun-related murders dropping (a rate which is minuscule and less relative to other crime) doesn't paint a rosy picture. If you really want to paint an optimistic picture of terrorism, I could do that really easily: after all, between 2001 and 2014, American deaths resulting from terrorism fell 99.4%. And of course, the disparity in gun-related deaths to victims of terrorism is, on a normal year, about 9000:10.

In other words, there's no metric that makes gun-related murders look good, at least not when you compare the United States to another stable democracy. It's only when you include comparisons to politically unstable and war-torn areas that the United States' gun-related death statistics begin to look relatively "normal."

https://www.start.umd.edu/pubs/START_AmericanTerrorismDeaths_FactSheet_Oct2015.pdf

 

[apdst]

Filthy lies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/08/well/live/after-a-suicide-attempt-the-risk-of-another-try.html


https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/


Furthermore, most of the causes are entirely treatable, be it depression, a relationship loss, or family issues.
Someone using assisted suicide with a terminal illness, hint NOT ****ING TREATABLE.

A gun doesn't cause someone to commit suicide. That stupid.

 

[TurtleDude]

Yeah, none of the above. I can see keeping guns out of the hands of violent offenders, and maybe in rare cases where someone is declared mentally incompetent (which of course requires a background check take place at the point of purchase). But that's about all the gun control I could support.

agreed. I see most of the support for those silly gun control schemes are not US citizens.

 

[TurtleDude]

How would one like me who owns a gun practice and stay efficient?

he wants to end recreational and sport shooting. making ammo very expensive doesn't hurt criminals who don't shoot hundreds of rounds week as do us competitive shooters. why? gun banners want to get rid of the pro gun vote and making gun ownership too expensive for most owners accomplishes that

 

[TurtleDude]

In light of an average of 8000 gun related homicides per year (not the least of which is the massacre in Las Vegas just two weeks ago in which 58 people were killed and 500 more were injured, or the 20 children killed at Sandy Hook), I don't find that to be an especially compelling concern.

yeah gun banners constantly prove they have a no use for the rights of lawful gun owners. our rights are to be sacrificed for silly schemes that won't stop crime. and amazingly, people like you cannot understand why we object to crap you call "reasonable steps" or "common sense" laws. after awhile, its obvious your goal is not really crime control but getting rid of lawful gun ownership

 

[TurtleDude]

What I think is your solution makes things worse and more dangerous for everybody, if you can't see that I agree theres no way to come to a solution because I don't want more people in danger. Its not my safety vs 33,00 deaths in any way because you solution wont stop those deaths it will probably increase them. AT least it will change the dynamics of them. While you are increasing the cost for me and making it hard for me to protect myself and stay efficient remind me what stops the bad guys from making their own bullets (which is not hard). What stops the black market from just exploding with ammo while again, people like me who will follow the law will have none or very little.

I believe he's upset about gun votes keeping Hillary out of office.

 

[TurtleDude]

What stops said black market from exploding in another developed, [relatively] stable Democracy? Statistically, it's not plausible that less access to guns and ammo would have no positive impact. The connection between gun-related deaths and the saturation of firearms is difficult to hand wave away.

View attachment 67223918



The Correlation Between Guns and Homicide Rate | RealClearScience

except in the USA there are at least 30 million more firearms-mainly semi auto magazine fed firearms since 1993 and millions of people carrying firearms on our streets legally and yet the rates of gun violence has gone down

 

[TurtleDude]

Don't all firearms have serial numbers on them?

no......

ones made before a certain date

ones an individual makes for himself and not offered for sale

 

[TurtleDude]

So if there was a regulation or law that makes it hard for criminals to acquire firearms or ammo, while not harming your ability to protect yourself, would you be in favor of it?

when you can come up with that let me know. I've been involved in this issue for 40+ years and I have yet to see such a plan

 

[TurtleDude]

Then there will have to be laws that target the black markets supply of bullets.

Any firearms store that sells bullets to black market dealers or willingly participates in the black market should lose their license to sell firearms.

that's already the law. I know, I handled two FFL revocation hearings in federal court. both cases involved dealers selling guns "off the books". they lost their licenses. They filed suits against the ATF for the revocation. I defended the ATF and the revocation. I won both