Which of the following do you think is reasonable gun control? (updated)

[Unitedwestand13]

You keep referring to some magic number that you think will lower and you still arent answer my question though. You really think bad guys and the black market just wont make bullets?

Yes you made it clear my safety and protecting my home is meaningless to you, you want to try and lower a number based on guesses no matter the cost. BUt his is why I asked my question which you didn't answer. This is america, it isn't "other places" WHen you make ammo say $50 a bullet how does that protect me, my family, society and save lives. The country isn't a vacuum or a computer model, it's a living already existing environment. I mean what you hope for is the same things people hoped for with making alcohol illegal and drugs being illegal now. How did that work and how is it working here in america?

I just can't support any plan that's going to almost instantly put me, my family and friends in danger to see if in 10 years maybe some number go down. How could you expect me too? Especially when you increase the risk that me, my family or friends will now be in those numbers.

Showing me a chart doesn't sell me in the least because I have to live in reality. If you make ammo crazy expensive when I run out or have a limited supply in a month and the bad guys and black market still has tons making bad guys super brave because they have mush less to fear that's what concerns me. Maybe "murders" will drop in a decade but also maybe armed robbery and rape will go up 300%. That's the world I still have to live in. No thank you. I mean honestly, don't give me hopeful charts of impacts 10, 25+ years from now.

Honestly walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low and what bad guys and the black market do who don't care about the law.

So if there was a regulation or law that makes it hard for criminals to acquire firearms or ammo, while not harming your ability to protect yourself, would you be in favor of it?

 

[apdst]

Dying of a terminal illness, disabled, in pain, in for weeks of pain until death, seeks physician assistance to help painless end their life on their terms.
A teen was bullied and is in emotional pain and wants it to stop, gets their dad's gun, sticks it in their mouth and pulls the trigger.

Clearly any reasonable person can support one, and not the other.

That kid would find a way to off himself. A gun ban isn't going to prevent that.

 

[Cardinal]

You keep referring to some magic number that you think will lower and you still arent answer my question though. You really think bad guys and the black market just wont make bullets?

Yes you made it clear my safety and protecting my home is meaningless to you, you want to try and lower a number based on guesses no matter the cost. BUt his is why I asked my question which you didn't answer. This is america, it isn't "other places" WHen you make ammo say $50 a bullet how does that protect me, my family, society and save lives. The country isn't a vacuum or a computer model, it's a living already existing environment. I mean what you hope for is the same things people hoped for with making alcohol illegal and drugs being illegal now. How did that work and how is it working here in america?

I just can't support any plan that's going to almost instantly put me, my family and friends in danger to see if in 10 years maybe some number go down. How could you expect me too? Especially when you increase the risk that me, my family or friends will now be in those numbers.

Showing me a chart doesn't sell me in the least because I have to live in reality. If you make ammo crazy expensive when I run out or have a limited supply in a month and the bad guys and black market still has tons making bad guys super brave because they have mush less to fear that's what concerns me. Maybe "murders" will drop in a decade but also maybe armed robbery and rape will go up 300%. That's the world I still have to live in. No thank you. I mean honestly, don't give me hopeful charts of impacts 10, 25+ years from now.

Honestly walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low and what bad guys and the black market do who don't care about the law.

Why does that chart tell you nothing? Why does the fact that the United States posseses twice as many firearms and over four times the gun related homicides of the next most gun-saturated stable democracy, or 29,700% of the firearm related deaths and 293% of the gun ownership of Iceland, seem so irrelevant to you? It's baffling to me that that's nothing to you.

It seems that someone who's as frightened about being overwhelmed by roving Mad Max gangs as you clearly are would find those numbers to be at least a little bit interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Is American exceptionalism such that we're also duty-bound to accept a higher firearm-related homicide rate than any other stable democracy on earth? If your answer to that is "yes," then I refer back to my earlier post:

If you think that the notion of you not having enough ammo for your gun is worse than ~33,000 gun-related deaths per year, then you and I have such a different view of the scale of the relative issues that you and I probably won't have much common ground here. In essence, it doesn't seem that you and I share enough common values to effectively argue toward an agreed-upon solution because our views of the problems are too different.

 

[LaylaWindu]

So if there was a regulation or law that makes it hard for criminals to acquire firearms or ammo, while not harming your ability to protect yourself, would you be in favor of it?

Oh there's lots of things I could support if it's made right. I am ok with UBC, that would do much though but I'd support it in return for other things. Heck it could even hinder me to a point but I don't want something the just throws me to the wolves. I don't understand why I should do that to myself over a maybe/ probably not. That's the real issue, a lot of ideas endanger me in HOPE of doing something MAYBE in the future years. That's a hard for me to swallow and I just can't

Making bullets 50$ a piece is way to extreme with basically no upside for me. All the risk and danger is put on me. I can't agree with that.

 

[LaylaWindu]

Why does that chart tell you nothing?

What is it supposed to tell me. It's a chart of A particular stat. You get that right? I'm an engineer and understand math and stats pretty well. So I get what goes on outside of paper and projections and in the real world. I can't ignore that. It shows america has a lot of guns and it's homicide rate. What is that supposed to do. Motivate me to turn in my gun while bad guys still have them? It does 100% the opposite.

Why does the fact that the United States posseses twice as many firearms and over four times the gun related homicides of the next most gun-saturated stable democracy, or 29,700% of the firearm related deaths and 293% of the gun ownership of Iceland, seem so irrelevant to you? It's baffling to me that that's nothing to you.

It's not irrelevant but you want me to increase my risk of being part of those numbers, that aint happening. And my answer is easy I just explained above, its baffling to me that you want me to endanger myself for a plan that might improve our situation 25+ years from now, maybe. But in the meantime make everything worse.

It seems that someone who's as frightened about being overwhelmed by roving Mad Max gangs as you clearly are would find those numbers to be at least a little bit interesting.

Mad max gangs? HAHAHA ooooOOOOoh ok nevermind, you are one of those people on this topic. I thought you wanted an honest conversation, my mistake. No need for me to reply to the rest because you just exposed how you think on this topic. What a uncivil thing to say. I also see you totally dodged my question though I'm guessing that because an honest answer to it totally exposes the flaw in your plan. Thank god we won't be doing your plan anytime in my lifetime.

 

[Cardinal]

What is it supposed to tell me. It's a chart of A particular stat. You get that right? I'm an engineer and understand math and stats pretty well. So I get what goes on outside of paper and projections and in the real world. I can't ignore that. It shows america has a lot of guns and it's homicide rate. What is that supposed to do. Motivate me to turn in my gun while bad guys still have them? It does 100% the opposite.

I didn't actually say that. In fact, if you go back over our exchange throughout this thread, quite a few of the positions you've attributed to me are things I never said.

It's not irrelevant but you want me to increase my risk of being part of those numbers, that aint happening. And my answer is easy I just explained above, its baffling to me that you want me to endanger myself for a plan that might improve our situation 25+ years from now, maybe. But in the meantime make everything worse.

That's a summary of a position that would kind of make some sense in the absence of the data I provided showing correlation between higher gun ownership and higher gun-related homicides. With that data taken into account, however, your position doesn't hold water. You say the data is not irrelevant, but everything you say after that suggests you find it irrelevant just the same.

 

[jimbo]

What stops said black market from exploding in another developed, [relatively] stable Democracy? Statistically, it's not plausible that less access to guns and ammo would have no positive impact. The connection between gun-related deaths and the saturation of firearms is difficult to hand wave away.

View attachment 67223918

The Correlation Between Guns and Homicide Rate | RealClearScience

Statistically speaking you are incorrect. Since the huge push by the gun control crowd. Around 1986. Gun possession has increased dramatically, and gun related crime has decreased.

 

[LaylaWindu]

I didn't actually say that. In fact, if you go back over our exchange throughout this thread, quite a few of the positions you've attributed to me are things I never said.



That's a summary of a position that would kind of make some sense in the absence of the data I provided showing correlation between higher gun ownership and higher gun-related homicides. With that data taken into account, however, your position doesn't hold water. You say the data is not irrelevant, but everything you say after that suggests you find it irrelevant just the same.

Yet you still are dodging my questions why is it? Everything I said is sound and your chart doesn't disprove it at all because your chart is NOT based on what happens when you do what your plan in america. You clearly don't understand stats. But since you proved yourself uncivil, rude and unable to have an honest discussion on this topic there will be no discussions until you answer my question that you refuse.

So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow. Now what do you think magically happens?Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low and what bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.) What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons. (Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Yet you still are dodging my questions why is it? Everything I said is sound and your chart doesn't disprove it at all because your chart is NOT based on what happens when you do what your plan in america. You clearly don't understand stats. But since you proved yourself uncivil, rude and unable to have an honest discussion on this topic there will be no discussions until you answer my question that you refuse.

So here you go "Honestly" walk me through what you think happens once you make a bullet 50$ a piece. Your bullet cost plan goes into effect tomorrow. Now what do you think magically happens?Tell me what you think I do (I obey the law) when my stock runs out or is really low and what bad guys and the black market do (the people that don't care about the law.) What happens when they know the country's stock is low but they still have tons. (Hint: your chart doesn't answer this in anyway)

Then there will have to be laws that target the black markets supply of bullets.

Any firearms store that sells bullets to black market dealers or willingly participates in the black market should lose their license to sell firearms.

 

[LaylaWindu]

Then there will have to be laws that target the black markets supply of bullets.

Any firearms store that sells bullets to black market dealers or willingly participates in the black market should lose their license to sell firearms.

Well it's my understanding there already are but they are poorly enforced. I could be wrong though. And that doesn't mean I wouldn't support more. My BF actually supports tracking guns, ammo and some accessories from manufacture to point of sell. But for ammo there's no way to do that right now.

 

[jimbo]

So if there was a regulation or law that makes it hard for criminals to acquire firearms or ammo, while not harming your ability to protect yourself, would you be in favor of it?

Do you have some such law in mind? I haven't seen any such law proposed or in effect.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Well it's my understanding there already are but they are poorly enforced. I could be wrong though. And that doesn't mean I wouldn't support more. My BF actually supports tracking guns, ammo and some accessories from manufacture to point of sell. But for ammo there's no way to do that right now.

But it is possible to track bullets if they were purchased in boxes. create something that tracks the brand of amunition and what stores they come from.

 

[LaylaWindu]

But it is possible to track bullets if they were purchased in boxes. create something that tracks the brand of amunition and what stores they come from.

The bullets would have to be imprinted not just boxes. And I would be totally fine with that.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Do you have some such law in mind? I haven't seen any such law proposed or in effect.

I don't know about particular laws, but I am in favor of laws that prevent the legal sale of firearms to illicit suppliers on the black market.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

The bullets would have to be imprinted not just boxes. And I would be totally fine with that.

And a digital registry of all the bullets..... but that sort of thing is opposed by some people

 

[jimbo]

Then there will have to be laws that target the black markets supply of bullets.

Any firearms store that sells bullets to black market dealers or willingly participates in the black market should lose their license to sell firearms.

That's what I term the acceleration clause in laws. That didn't work so we must have not made the law strong enough. Eventually we arrive at a total ban, which was the original goal.

 

[jimbo]

I don't know about particular laws, but I am in favor of laws that prevent the legal sale of firearms to illicit suppliers on the black market.

We already have those laws.

But I get your point. You have no idea what law would prevent criminals from getting weapons.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

That's what I term the acceleration clause in laws. That didn't work so we must have not made the law strong enough. Eventually we arrive at a total ban, which was the original goal.

The sale of ammunition and guns has to have a system of accountability that allows people to keep track of said items.

 

[LaylaWindu]

And a digital registry of all the bullets..... but that sort of thing is opposed by some people

Well it would depend on how far the registry went. If it just tracked them to point of sell I'd be fine with that because it still (like you suggested) makes the store/dealer responsible.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

We already have those laws.

But I get your point. You have no idea what law would prevent criminals from getting weapons.

If a criminal acquires a firearm illegaly by stealing it, he is already breaking a law and nothing can prevent that. On the other hand if a criminal is able to purchase a firearm through legal means without drawing attention of the police, then that is a problem.

This may require the creation of a paper trail for every gun purchase

 

[jimbo]

Don't all firearms have serial numbers on them?

Actually they don't.

Which brings us to the next huge problem. With CAD and CAM, and 3 D printing, weapons are becoming far easier to build in your garage.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Actually they don't.

Which brings us to the next huge problem. With CAD and CAM, and 3 D printing, weapons are becoming far easier to build in your garage.

And that creates another problem with enforcing existing gun laws

 

[jimbo]

If a criminal acquires a firearm illegaly by stealing it, he is already breaking a law and nothing can prevent that. On the other hand if a criminal is able to purchase a firearm through legal means without drawing attention of the police, then that is a problem.

This may require the creation of a paper trail for every gun purchase

Which is getting far away from your question:

So if there was a regulation or law that makes it hard for criminals to acquire firearms or ammo, while not harming your ability to protect yourself, would you be in favor of it?

 

[jimbo]

And that creates another problem with enforcing existing gun laws

Which brings us back to the acceleration clause in ineffective laws.

 

[apdst]

Don't all firearms have serial numbers on them?

Only firearms manufactured by someone in the business to manufacture and sell firearms are required to put a serial number.