When its too late for an abortion

[Waddy]

1. The choice, to abort or not, IMO is solely the right of the woman to make, regardless of others opinions.

2. Several of us have asked, "where?", but have yet to see an answer.

You're right; it is the mother's choice, regardless of what the law says. It has always been the mother's choice whether her babies live or die. I'm simply advocating for life rather than death.

The 2002 law says the infant survivors of abortion will not be purposely killed; but it does not preclude with holding care and just waiting for them to die, which is common practice. To me that's one and the same. A distinction without a difference. Throwing them in the sink and waiting for their hearts to stop is the same as killing them. Once again, my opinion, which I'm entitled to; at least so long as this country remains a democracy.

 

[minnie616]

You're right; it is the mother's choice, regardless of what the law says. It has always been the mother's choice whether her babies live or die. I'm simply advocating for life rather than death.

The 2002 law says the infant survivors of abortion will not be purposely killed; but it does not preclude with holding care and just waiting for them to die, which is common practice. To me that's one and the same. A distinction without a difference. Throwing them in the sink and waiting for their hearts to stop is the same as killing them. Once again, my opinion, which I'm entitled to; at least so long as this country remains a democracy.

You misread the 2002 law.

No one trows it in a sink or stops caring for the infant/premie.

The law says that extraordinary steps do not have to made if it is born in cases where it is imcompatable with life.

If the preemie/newborn is born with a life threatening/imcompatable with life condition you still think that preemie who has no chance of living more than a few minutes or hours should be rushed away to a hospital and have tubes and needles stuck into its tiny body instead of given humane palliative care ?

Many mothers/parents/health care givers feel palliative care instead ot extra ordinary care is the more humane treatment in circumstance where the preemie/ infant is born incompatible with life. ( means it cannot survive more than a few minutes or hours due to its malformation or abnormalities.)



When palliative/ comfort care is given; the preemie/infant is wrapped in a blanket , kept warm and often held by the mother/parent or a care giver, fed and kept conforable and loved until it expires on its own of its medial issues.


From webmd:

When a fetus or newborn is diagnosed with a life-threatening condition, no matter how early or late in the pregnancy, it is a loss that parents grieve.

Parents imagine their child's future from the moment they find out they're expecting. By a first prenatal doctor visit, parents may have countless plans for their baby. Now different plans must be made. For this reason, palliative care may be recommended before, during, and after delivery.

Palliative care is recommended for newborns who:

Are born at extremely low birth weight (i.e. a pound or less)
Are born before 23 weeks of gestation
Are born with a lethal abnormality or malformation
Will experience more burden than benefit from further treatments for their condition

Palliative care can begin as soon as a diagnosis is made, even if it's during pregnancy. If a baby or fetus has a life-threatening condition, doctors usually will offer parents a set of options. Palliative care providers help parents make and cope with these decisions[/B]

WEBMD

Neonatal Palliative Care: Focus on Life

 

[Waddy]

You misread the 2002 law.

The law says that extraordinary steps do not have to made if it is born in cases where it is imcompatable with life.

If the preemie/newborn is born with a life threatening/imcompatable with life condition you still think that preemie who has no chance of living more than a few minutes or hours should be rushed away to a hospital and have tubes and needles stuck into its tiny body instead of given humane palliative care ?

Many mothers/parents/health care givers feel palliative care instead ot extra ordinary care is the more humane treatment in circumstance where the preemie/ infant is born incompatible with life. ( means it cannot survive more than a few minutes or hours due to its malformation or abnormalities.)



When palliative/ comfort care is given; the preemie/infant is wrapped in a blanket , kept warm and often held by the mother/parent or a care giver, fed and kept conforable and loved until it expires on its own of its medial issues.


From webmd:



WEBMD

Neonatal Palliative Care: Focus on Life

What you are describing is the fate of a newborn delivered normally with little chance to survive. That is not what happens when the newborn is a survivor of an abortion.

The method of abortion that Christ Hospital uses is called “induced labor abortion,” also now known as “live birth abortion.” This type of abortion can be performed different ways, but the goal always is to cause a pregnant woman’s cervix to open so that she will deliver a premature baby who dies during the birth process or soon afterward. The way that induced abortion is most often executed at my hospital is by the physician inserting a medication called Cytotec into the birth canal close to the cervix. Cytotec irritates the cervix and stimulates it to open. When this occurs, the small, preterm baby drops out of the uterus, oftentimes alive. It is not uncommon for one of these live aborted babies to linger for an hour or two or even longer. One of them once lived for almost eight hours.

In the event that a baby is aborted alive, he or she receives no medical assessments or care but is only given what my hospital calls “comfort care.” “Comfort care” is defined as keeping the baby warm in a blanket until he or she dies, although even this minimal compassion is not always provided. It is not required that these babies be held during their short lives.

Testimony from Nurse Jill L. Stanek during the Born Alive Infant Protection Act Congressional Hearings

So, is she a liar?

 

[minnie616]

What you are describing is the fate of a newborn delivered normally with little chance to survive. That is not what happens when the newborn is a survivor of an abortion.


Testimony from Nurse Jill L. Stanek during the Born Alive Infant Protection Act Congressional Hearings

So, is she a liar?

Hospitals do not follow the same procedure as clinic abortion doctors ( the fetus needs to already be dead before contractions can be induced in a clinic abortion past 20 weeks).

Hospital doctors are not skilled or trained enough to follow the same procedure clinic abortion doctors must follow.

There are only 4 doctors in the United States trained and skilled enough to perform clinic abortions.

From Romper:

In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy, according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)

Which States Offer Late-Term Abortions? They Are Very Difficult To Access


However, Hospital abortions are only given when the fetus is non viable or imcompatable with life.

As your link said:

the small, preterm baby drops out of the uterus,

Pre term means not viable. If it is alive it’s lungs are too immature to allow it live more than a few minutes or hours.



If the woman’s health or life is at risk and the fetus is viable or may have a chance of surviving a stat c-section is given.

Comfort care is another term for palliative care.

 

[Individual]

You're right; it is the mother's choice, regardless of what the law says. It has always been the mother's choice whether her babies live or die. I'm simply advocating for life rather than death.

The 2002 law says the infant survivors of abortion will not be purposely killed; but it does not preclude with holding care and just waiting for them to die, which is common practice. To me that's one and the same. A distinction without a difference. Throwing them in the sink and waiting for their hearts to stop is the same as killing them. Once again, my opinion, which I'm entitled to; at least so long as this country remains a democracy.

I'm not familiar with the wording of the law you refer to, but as long as it is done within the law it matters not if you disagree.

 

[Lursa]

and, yet, those same women could have that unwanted baby adopted out without affecting their existing children. Problem solved.

But it would harm existing children already waiting to be adopted.

We've covered all this already.

Adding more unwanted, unaffordable kids to a US adoption pool of more than 100,000 is not a solution.

 

[Lursa]

The fact that you don't consider children a first priority says a lot.
And it depends on what you consider a "child". many people believe humanity begins at conception. Opinions will vary.

*I* do consider children a priority.

However when it comes to the unborn, I value them but prioritize all born people over them. So this means, yes, I do prioritize children.

Once again, you clearly demonstrate why "pro-CHOICE" is the moral stance here. Because people believe different things.

If "opinions vary," why should someone's opinion be forced on a woman that does not share that opinion?

 

[Scrabaholic]

post 545. That infers that since I will never get pregnant, I should not have an opinion.

No, that does not say you shouldn't have an opinion. Please do not lie about me again.

 

[Scrabaholic]

and, yet, those same women could have that unwanted baby adopted out without affecting their existing children. Problem solved.

Adoption is wrong. You are asking women to pawn their children off on others to raise, to hand them over to strangers. Nope, not going to ever do it.

 

[Scrabaholic]

A sad story. Sorry it ended with an abortion, as the birth mother obviously didn't want to have an abortion. However, I'm sure there is an adoptive couple out there who would have gladly helped with those expenses. There are both public and private agencies that will help with expenses and placement. My daughter, who is a professional, and her husband, an airline pilot, paid over over $40k to pay the expenses for a young woman who gave birth and gave her baby to them to adopt. Those were living expenses and whatever other expenses she needed help with to carry the baby to term. It is an "open" adoption. That baby is now an 8 year old, doing well in school, and they all still keep in touch. The birth mother visits about twice a year. Giving a baby up for adoption can be a win-win. The adoptive parents fulfill a dream and the birth mother doesn't have to carry around a lot of guilt. All of them are happy with their decisions.

And, yes, placing newborns with severe birth defects and placing older children is a problem. But all healthy newborns can be placed with adoptive parents; you know, the ones who wait years for that call. So I understand the decision, at times, to abort severely birth defected babies, but the vast majority are born healthy. They deserve a chance.

Women are not gestation machines for the barren. Essentially, what you describe is buying a baby.

And for the vast majority of women who abort, there is no guilt.

 

[Scrabaholic]

YOnce again, my opinion, which I'm entitled to; at least so long as this country remains a democracy.

Just an FYI, the USA is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

 

[Waddy]

Adoption is wrong. You are asking women to pawn their children off on others to raise, to hand them over to strangers. Nope, not going to ever do it.

I've never heard anything like that before. Amazing. But that's your opinion. like they say, everybody has one.

 

[Waddy]

Just an FYI, the USA is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

A constitutional republic IS a form of democracy. Keep digging that hole deeper. It's so you.

 

[southwest88]

Every citizen gets a vote

Originally Posted by Scrabaholic
Just an FYI, the USA is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

A constitutional republic IS a form of democracy. Keep digging that hole deeper. It's so you.

No, constitutional republic captures what the US is quite well. See

"Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία dēmokratía, literally "Rule by 'People'") is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting. In a direct democracy, the citizens as a whole form a governing body and vote directly on each issue. In a representative democracy the citizens elect representatives from among themselves. These representatives meet to form a governing body, such as a legislature. In a constitutional democracy the powers of the majority are exercised within the framework of a representative democracy, but the constitution limits the majority and protects the minority, usually through the enjoyment by all of certain individual rights, e.g. freedom of speech, or freedom of association.[1][2] "Rule of the majority" is sometimes referred to as democracy.[3] Democracy is a system of processing conflicts in which outcomes depend on what participants do, but no single force controls what occurs and its outcomes."

(My emphasis - more @ Democracy - Wikipedia)

The usual contrast is between a direct democracy & a representative democracy; but a constitutional democracy is more concise & better conveys how the US functions.

 

[Scrabaholic]

I've never heard anything like that before. Amazing. But that's your opinion. like they say, everybody has one.

Yes, it is my opinion. And I will live my life by *my* opinions, nobody else's. I am not trying to force other women to refrain from adopting out.

 

[Individual]

A constitutional republic IS a form of democracy. Keep digging that hole deeper. It's so you.

And abortion was made legal by a democratic process.

 

[Waddy]

Re: Every citizen gets a vote

Originally Posted by Scrabaholic
Just an FYI, the USA is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.



No, constitutional republic captures what the US is quite well. See

"Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία dēmokratía, literally "Rule by 'People'") is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting. In a direct democracy, the citizens as a whole form a governing body and vote directly on each issue. In a representative democracy the citizens elect representatives from among themselves. These representatives meet to form a governing body, such as a legislature. In a constitutional democracy the powers of the majority are exercised within the framework of a representative democracy, but the constitution limits the majority and protects the minority, usually through the enjoyment by all of certain individual rights, e.g. freedom of speech, or freedom of association.[1][2] "Rule of the majority" is sometimes referred to as democracy.[3] Democracy is a system of processing conflicts in which outcomes depend on what participants do, but no single force controls what occurs and its outcomes."

(My emphasis - more @ Democracy - Wikipedia)

The usual contrast is between a direct democracy & a representative democracy; but a constitutional democracy is more concise & better conveys how the US functions.

Yep; ALL democracy. Keep digging that hole. You look good down there.

 

[Waddy]

Yes, it is my opinion. And I will live my life by *my* opinions, nobody else's. I am not trying to force other women to refrain from adopting out.

Well, you sure would considering you think adoption is WRONG. looks like you'd like to force women out of adoption.

 

[Individual]

Re: Every citizen gets a vote

Yep; ALL democracy. Keep digging that hole. You look good down there.

If we keep digging the hole you refer to, how will you ever get out?

Here's a rope, if you agree grab it and climb up.
Abortion was made legal by a democratic process, and while it does not impose abortion upon anyone, it does NOT eliminate the Womans freedom/liberty to make a choice of bringing a child of her creation into the world. And yes, I know there was a male participant, but it is the Woman who must make the decision relative to the next 9 months of her life if an unwanted pregnancy occurs.

Accept the fact, that while you may not agree with the law, it imposes nothing upon you or your person and that what you propose 'would' impose upon others and their person, as well as the whole of society.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Adoption is wrong. You are asking women to pawn their children off on others to raise, to hand them over to strangers. Nope, not going to ever do it.

Adoption is wrong? Yeah how awful for a child to be raised by someone who loves it as opposed to being killed by moms hired gun.
Also do fetuses feel pain and at any point is an abortion just a clump if cells being removed?

 

[calamity]

Adoption is wrong? Yeah how awful for a child to be raised by someone who loves it as opposed to being killed by moms hired gun.
Also do fetuses feel pain and at any point is an abortion just a clump if cells being removed?

Parasite removal is a healthy choice.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Parasite removal is a healthy choice.

Glad you represent the left.

 

[minnie616]

....
Also do fetuses feel pain and at any point is an abortion just a clump if cells being removed?

Before about 26 weeks the fetus feels no pain during an abortion since the fetus has not yet developed To a point where it may feel pain. That is the correct statement. Of course during a successfully completed abortion be it natural or induced the embryo or fetus dies.

After 20 weeks before the necessary abortion extraction occurs ...if the fetus still has a heartbeat it is given a painless injection ( again no pain ) to stop the heart.

It’s pretty telling how some are so concerned about the imaginary pain a fetus has during an abortion then they ( you ?) think nothing of the pain it feels while it’s head is banged against the woman’s cervix during labor pains and how much pain it feels while it’s skull is being squeezed through the birth canal during childbirth.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Before about 26 weeks the fetus feels no pain during an abortion since the fetus has not yet developed To a point where it may feel pain. That is the correct statement. Of course during a successfully completed abortion be it natural or induced the embryo or fetus dies.

After 20 weeks before the necessary abortion extraction occurs ...if the fetus still has a heartbeat it is given a painless injection ( again no pain ) to stop the heart.

It’s pretty telling how some are so concerned about the imaginary pain a fetus has during an abortion then they ( you ?) think nothing of the pain it feels while it’s head is banged against the woman’s cervix during labor pains and how much pain it feels while it’s skull is being squeezed through the birth canal during childbirth.

Sorry this question was directly to the other member.

 

[Waddy]

Re: Every citizen gets a vote

If we keep digging the hole you refer to, how will you ever get out?

Here's a rope, if you agree grab it and climb up.
Abortion was made legal by a democratic process, and while it does not impose abortion upon anyone, it does NOT eliminate the Womans freedom/liberty to make a choice of bringing a child of her creation into the world. And yes, I know there was a male participant, but it is the Woman who must make the decision relative to the next 9 months of her life if an unwanted pregnancy occurs.

Accept the fact, that while you may not agree with the law, it imposes nothing upon you or your person and that what you propose 'would' impose upon others and their person, as well as the whole of society.

I'm not "proposing" anything. The law is the law. But I do advocate for life instead of death. The hole being dug is the insistence that adoption is wrong. Doubling down on that idea makes that hole massive.