What would it take for you to accept that racism still exists in America

[Cephus]

Which is exactly why I'm asking what would need to happen for you to change your mind.

Why would anything change his mind when THERE IS NO SYSTEMIC RACISM?

 

[Nilly]

What I see you doing is the same as what climate change deniers do: "It was cold today; no climate change!"

A bunch of Nazi's marching in Charlottesville does not equate systematic racism. Laws, rules and regulations that put specific races at a disadvantage over other races, equates systematic racism. Outside of laws, rules and regulations the racism here in the US doesnt meet to definition of the word systematic: done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical. There isnt some big conspiracy by white people to be racists. There are a awful lot of racists, but they are not all organized like those groups at that stupid ass rally.

That being said something should be done about the extreme right running around. And while we are at it we should also do something about all the extreme left.

Alt-left is certainly I thing, won't deny that. But it's also not what this thread is about.

Fair enough if you don't believe that the white nationalism on display is a cause/symptom/indicative of systemic racism. However, the point of my post is to ask the question, what actions/events would have to occur in order to indicate to you that systemic racism does exist. If (for example) white nationalist rallies broke out in every state capital saying that the nazi's in charlottesville had the right idea, would you entertain the idea that even though we live in a world with anti-discriminatory laws, society itself is still discriminatory.

 

[Captain Adverse]

So for systemic racism to exist it must be enshrined in law rather than just cultural?

Those 6,500 people represent the views of many more (but yes they are basically the worst of the lot).

And the President has appointed Bannon as chief strategist and Sessions as AG without getting removed from office. These are far less symbolic but realistically more harmful (from a racial standpoint) than wearing a swastika.

I already stated in my original response that racism exists. That individuals can act out due to it. That even some local areas (like those white nationalist militia enclaves) would express it in their "local system."

I then indicated in a subsequent response that many Black American citizen's assume racism; and IMO by their own actions (belligerence, disrespect, taking every instruction as a personal challenge) they get negative reactions they label "racist" creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That's a problem expressed by the "It's not color, it's culture" idea. The culture encouraged at those white supremacist enclaves, or small town/local neighborhood bastions of "white power" and Jim Crow holdovers spotted around the nation are also reflected on the other hand by the "Slave Guilt" and "Thug Life" counter-cultures.

Yet we have successful Black politicians, medical and legal professionals, businessmen, educators, etc. to balance that narrative.

 

[Nilly]

Why would anything change his mind when THERE IS NO SYSTEMIC RACISM?

That's why I'm asking what hypothetical events would have to occur to make you believe there is systemic racism.

I'm trying to guage if literally anything could make people believe that systemic racism does exist. Or is denial of it so strongly rooted in some people that they could literally overlook any event as indicative of a systemic racist issue in America.

 

[Cephus]

That's why I'm asking what hypothetical events would have to occur to make you believe there is systemic racism.

I'm trying to guage if literally anything could make people believe that systemic racism does exist. Or is denial of it so strongly rooted in some people that they could literally overlook any event as indicative of a systemic racist issue in America.

What would need to happen for me to accept that it's real? Demonstrable evidence that it's actually real. But since that evidence does not exist, there's no reason to take claims that it exists seriously.

 

[Nilly]

By strict definition, "systemic racism" is indeed racism enshrined in law. What the country is primarily experiencing is a resurgence of widespread sociological, cultural racism in my opinion, which has become worse, not better, over the past couple of years, as white-supremacist/neo-Nazi movements become more and more bold.

I disagree. Systemic racism can be part of culture rather than law. That's the definition I'm using, anyway.

I don't think anyone would deny that a return to Jim Crow laws would be a signal of systemic racism. What I am asking is are there events that could happen in America today that would lead you to believe that systemic racism exists.

I didn't believe that systemic racism existed until I learned about the disparity between white and black people of supposedly equal opportunity. After I learned of that I was like 'oh, hey, something is up here'. Someone else might only start to believe that systemic racism is real if they heard that black children are 10x (or whatever) more likely to get shot than white children. Others might start to believe it when they hear that a bunch of white nationalists started openly marching through one of our cities. I'm trying to guage for different people where that 'aha!' moment would hypothetically come (or even come at all!).

(The 10x statistic above is for sake of argument I have no idea if it's correct).

 

[Nilly]

What would need to happen for me to accept that it's real? Demonstrable evidence that it's actually real. But since that evidence does not exist, there's no reason to take claims that it exists seriously.

To me, disparity in mortality, incarceration, wealth etc are 'demonstrable evidence' that it's real. Clearly that's not the case to you. And I'm not here to argue that. I'm hear to ask: What would constitute demonstrable evidence that it is real?

I would also add that as sociological phenomena, we can't have strict standards for proof like we might in a biology experiment. There is no control group or double blind tests for sociological effects. With that said, is there anything that could constitute demonstrable evidence for you?

 

[Jaygodmedia]

systemic racism what a joke why would you even need to add the word systemic in front of it. These people will never admit to their forefathers evil wicked ways and how blacks will forever be effective by the rape and dehumanizing of a people because of the color of their skin.
https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...gree-crap-and-independents-have-no-power.html
On a modern side note:
I would like to think if trump gave a press conference tomorrow and said OK I f'd up I should have said White racist were responsible for those sick attacks. Don't worried I'll say it next time... The GOP and the press would expect that bs and be like let's move on until someone points out why you wearing a swastika sir? Trump like it was a gift from my dad pretty cool uh?

 

[joG]

Anyone who does not think it exists is mentally feeble, woefully ignorant, or malignantly motivated.

Over time i have met fewer Americans that were particularly racist than among Europeans. That might easily be the selection of the populations I have known. For instance, I have known practically no Blacks or Hispanics nor many without university degrees, while the cut of Europeans is less restricted.

 

[Cephus]

To me, disparity in mortality, incarceration, wealth etc are 'demonstrable evidence' that it's real. Clearly that's not the case to you. And I'm not here to argue that. I'm hear to ask: What would constitute demonstrable evidence that it is real?

I would also add that as sociological phenomena, we can't have strict standards for proof like we might in a biology experiment. There is no control group or double blind tests for sociological effects. With that said, is there anything that could constitute demonstrable evidence for you?

All of the things you list are cultural, not racist. These are things that blacks, particularly poor blacks, have done to themselves, they have not had them done to them. You'd have to prove, for instance, that black people were being swept up off the street and sentenced for crimes they were demonstrably not guilty of and we all know you can't do that. Blacks are disproportionately over-represented in prison because blacks commit a disproportionate percentage of the crime. FBI crime statistics proves that.

But the left wants equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity and that's utterly idiotic. That's why they pretend that systemic racism is real, they have no other explanation for the state of actual reality.

 

[mike2810]

Line 7 of OP:

Yet the poll choices was limited to one group (blacks). Hence my comment.

 

[Cephus]

Yet the poll choices was limited to one group (blacks). Hence my comment.

Yet there is a blind assumption that it's going on, without any evidence, just because that's how the left operates.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Alt-left is certainly I thing, won't deny that. But it's also not what this thread is about.

I only made one sentence on them in passing.

Fair enough if you don't believe that the white nationalism on display is a cause/symptom/indicative of systemic racism. However, the point of my post is to ask the question, what actions/events would have to occur in order to indicate to you that systemic racism does exist. If (for example) white nationalist rallies broke out in every state capital saying that the nazi's in charlottesville had the right idea, would you entertain the idea that even though we live in a world with anti-discriminatory laws, society itself is still discriminatory.

Nazi's or whatever you want to call them are not mainstream Americans. If Nazi's were to gain power in America to the point that they could assert systematic racism, we would have far bigger problems than racism alone.

Tell me what does the idiots/Nazi's and their plastic shields in Virginia have to do with systematic racism? What is the connection that you are driving at? Correct me if I am wrong but you appear to be trying to connect those Nazi's as representative of systematic racism.

 

[Former GOP]

Racism isn't limited to white supremacists. There are plenty of black racists too, including those in the BLM movement. Listen to practically any rap song and you'll hear the word nigger being said over and over and over by the same blacks who would consider it a crime if a white person said the same word to them.

 

[Cephus]

Racism isn't limited to white supremacists. There are plenty of black racists too, including those in the BLM movement. Listen to practically any rap song and you'll hear the word nigger being said over and over and over by the same blacks who would consider it a crime if a white person said the same word to them.

Come on, you'll never get the left to agree to that, which is why they redefine the terminology so non-whites get a pass.

 

[Former GOP]

Come on, you'll never get the left to agree to that, which is why they redefine the terminology so non-whites get a pass.

I agree but the way I see it, if nigger is supposed to be such a horrible racist term then it's just as bad for blacks to use it. But oh no, they can get by with it in any rap song or even in general conversation. As a white guy, I admit to sometimes using that word to describe some low-class blacks and I have no guilt. If some people think that makes me a bigot or a monster, so be it.

 

[Cephus]

I agree but the way I see it, if nigger is supposed to be such a horrible racist term then it's just as bad for blacks to use it. But oh no, they can get by with it in any rap song or even in general conversation. As a white guy, I admit to sometimes using that word to describe some low-class blacks and I have no guilt. If some people think that makes me a bigot or a monster, so be it.

It's just a word. It's just sounds that we make with our mouth. It has no inherent meaning. Anyone who takes offense at it, the problem is with them, not with the word. Nobody can offend you against your will. I don't find the word useful but I'm certainly not offended by it, nor do I care if anyone else is. I get so tired of the political left who largely gets offended by proxy for people who didn't ask for their concern. The ones who scream the loudest about people saying "nigger" are almost always middle-class white liberals. Those people need to grow the hell up.

 

[DiAnna]

I disagree. Systemic racism can be part of culture rather than law. That's the definition I'm using, anyway.

I don't think anyone would deny that a return to Jim Crow laws would be a signal of systemic racism. What I am asking is are there events that could happen in America today that would lead you to believe that systemic racism exists.

I didn't believe that systemic racism existed until I learned about the disparity between white and black people of supposedly equal opportunity. After I learned of that I was like 'oh, hey, something is up here'. Someone else might only start to believe that systemic racism is real if they heard that black children are 10x (or whatever) more likely to get shot than white children. Others might start to believe it when they hear that a bunch of white nationalists started openly marching through one of our cities. I'm trying to guage for different people where that 'aha!' moment would hypothetically come (or even come at all!).

(The 10x statistic above is for sake of argument I have no idea if it's correct).

I don't disagree with you. There has been increasingly vocal disparagement between the races over the past few years, and I empathize with BLM because their overall point is valid: Their children are 10x (or whatever) more likely to get shot and/or imprisoned than whites. Hispanics are also several times more likely than whites to be shot and/or imprisoned. Some argue it's because minorities are more likely to live in poverty, and poverty breeds crime, and crime breeds violence, but it's hardly that simple.

We live in a grey world. BLM is specifically targeting the number of police shootings against blacks, and frankly after seeing officers repeatedly acquitted or not charged in instances where anyone else would be behind bars in a heartbeat (not all of those shootings... Ferguson, for instance... were bad shoots), must be terrifying for them. If they felt like police don't care about black people, I put myself in their position and can understand why. BLM's beef is not with whites, it's with "blue".

White supremacists, fascists, KKK, neo-Nazis, they are race-based groups who want separation of races enshrined in law. Trump's campaign rhetoric and the fact that he has three White Nationalists in Sr. WH positions (Bannon, Miller, Gorka) has given credence and power to their kind of hatred and bigotry, and that truly sends frissons of fear down my spine, and I'm sure down the spines of nearly every minority in America.

 

[Bodi]

I agree but the way I see it, if nigger is supposed to be such a horrible racist term then it's just as bad for blacks to use it. But oh no, they can get by with it in any rap song or even in general conversation. As a white guy, I admit to sometimes using that word to describe some low-class blacks and I have no guilt. If some people think that makes me a bigot or a monster, so be it.

Why are all the examples of white people treating black people poorly?

Black people can and are racist too...

 

[Cephus]

Why are all the examples of white people treating black people poorly?

Black people can and are racist too...

Because according to the left, blacks cannot be racist, only whites can. But then again, the left are absurdly racist, so...

 

[Bodi]

A few more options I couldn't fit in.

- David Duke being elected president
- Reincarnation of Adolf Hitler nominated as secretary of education
- Slavery reinstated
- 20% tax on non-whites earnings
- Blacks having lower IQ's being taught as common core
- Mandatory crosses built in high school foyers

What would it take to show that racism is not a huge problem in the USA anymore...

- A black man being voted President of the United States
- African Americans being voted into Congress
- African Americans being voted into the Senate
- African Americans on the Supreme Court
- Black people as generals in the US military
- Black people as Astronauts in NASA
- Black people making tens of millions of dollars as athletes and actors

 

[Bodi]

Because according to the left, blacks cannot be racist, only whites can. But then again, the left are absurdly racist, so...

a-greed...

 

[Nilly]

What would it take to show that racism is not a huge problem in the USA anymore...

- A black man being voted President of the United States
- African Americans being voted into Congress
- African Americans being voted into the Senate
- African Americans on the Supreme Court
- Black people as generals in the US military
- Black people as Astronauts in NASA
- Black people making tens of millions of dollars as athletes and actors

Line 7 of the OP:

To be clear, I'm not talking about individual specific instances of racism (we all know those exist) but the more general social existence of racism at a systemic level.

 

[Bodi]

Line 7 of the OP:

These indicate a systemic level of racism?


- A black man being voted President of the United States
- African Americans being voted into Congress
- African Americans being voted into the Senate
- African Americans on the Supreme Court
- Black people as generals in the US military
- Black people as Astronauts in NASA
- Black people making tens of millions of dollars as athletes and actors

And that list is just the beginning too...

 

[Mach]

Why are all the examples of white people treating black people poorly?Black people can and are racist too...

We've been through this before. Popular usage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Racism can be said to describe a condition in society in which a dominant racial group benefits from the oppression of others, whether that group wants such benefits or not.

P1: In the U.S., some fraction of our population is black, and some fraction of those blacks benefit from the oppression of whites. True.
P2:Blacks are not the dominant racial group. True.
-> Therefore blacks cannot exhibit racism in the broad context of the U.S.

It cannot get much more simple than that.
Notice how it also acknowledge that reverse DISCRIMINATION does occur (rightly so in some cases). But that it doesn't make it racism.