What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?***[W:151]

[X Factor]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

OK, suicide attacks followed by rocket attacks...

Happy now?

The Gazans elected a terrorist organization to lead them.

A terror organization that has squandered resources to commit 20,000+ acts of war against a sovereign nation.

A terrorist organization that keeps attacking until there is a deadly response then waves the bloody shirt over the deaths.

A terrorist organization that cares little for their infrastructure in that they use schools, hospitals and mosques as launching points for there rocket attacks.

If I punch somebody twenty times I have no standing to cry when they respond by knocking a few teeth out.

Gee, you make it sound like electing a terrorist organization was a bad idea.

 

[justabubba]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Cry more...

If the rockets did not come there would be no response..

when was the last time rockets were fired into israel?

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

You mean as a response to the First Intifada? Do you think the suicide bus attack that killed 16 Israelis in '89 might also have had something to do with Israel clamping down tighter on the terrorists?

See how you just ignore what the first intifada started off as and move straight to a suicide attack ( 2 years in )? Do you know why you do this ? Because you don't care to try to understand what has happened to the Palestinians. They are violent so they start an intifada. Not that they are occupied and systematically violated so they start an intifada. It's just an outright racist approach that colours nearly all of your posts


This is a big part of the problem as to why you can't comprehend why people hold an opposing position

The first intifada was widespread protests ,civil disobedience , strikes , boycotts etc and it was only after the IDF had killed hundreds of Palestinians that the first suicide attack took place two years after the start of the intifada.

Be honest you don't really care that hundreds of Palestinians lives were lost before any suicide attacks took place. That you can leap in two years and only show horror at the lose of 16 innocent lives whilst completely ignoring the shocking slaughter of hundreds of Palestinians

What you class as " clamping down " should be presented in the right context. They were , and still are , clamping down on a people they are occupying militarily and illegally settling whilst systematically denying those people their basic human rights and their right to self determination. Not wishing to factor this in shows a large degree of bias imo

Gazan terrorists use more than rockets to spread their violence. Israel responds to those attacks. As long as the terrorists are willing to send their children into the line of fire, those children will likely be killed. But, the blood is on the terrorists' hands.

And the Israelis use the US arsenal to spread their violence.

You deny the Palestinians the right to respond to Israeli military occupation and illegal settlement , repression and brutality and only want to delude yourself that none of this should be a reason for a response from them.

The Israeli exrajudicial killings I was referring to will also illicit a response

Your starting position is obviously , no matter what violations Israel might commit against Palestinians , no matter the occupation , no matter the extrajudicial murders , no matter the thousands in administrative detention , the denial of basic human rights etc etc they have no right to respond to these themselves. That is a right you reserve for Jews only and that's why it is a racist outlook

 

[Fledermaus]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Gee, you make it sound like electing a terrorist organization was a bad idea.

What is the worst that can happen?

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Arabs have tons of rights, and they own and occupy the vast majority of the Middle East after all.

This isn't about Arab rights -- this is about Gazan terrorists. Period.

Europeans have " tons of rights " but if someone invaded Spain , militarily occupied them and violated/denied then their rights people would rightly criticize it and seek to undermine it.

This is not about Arabs it is specifically about Palestinians

For over a decade, Egypt (yep, Arabs) has been solely in control of the Rafah crossing. Not Israel. But, like Israel, Egypt does not care for Hamas, and so Egypt strongly regulates the crossing.

We're talking about Arabs regulating Gazans here -- Israel has nothing more to do with Rafah -- it hasn't for nearly 13 years. If Gazans wanted peace, they'd get rid of Hamas and Egypt has stated they would then open the crossing.

Egypt has been and remains pretty much a US client proxy that has repressed it's own people for decades. They are scared of the Muslim/Islamic popular forces amongst the dirt poor in the Sinai gaining power/momentum.

What you want to believe is that some other group seems to confirm your racist view of Gazans as nothing more than terrorist automatons. Their reasons for not helping Gazans are not because they hold the same view as you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

If Egypt (Arabs) sees the wisdom in not allowing Gazans to freely enter and exit Egypt, don't you think there just might be a good reason?

Think about it.

I have and because I know a little about the state of Egypt I don't hold the same view as you do. Think about that yourself

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

when was the last time rockets were fired into israel?

AFAIK none have been fired since the March of Return despite all of the fatalities that have racked up in them

Be sure though , our " pro Israeli " folk here , will not see a resumption , should it come , as a response to those killings.

The cart has to be put before the horse , that's their rules

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

OK, suicide attacks followed by rocket attacks...

Happy now?

.

Israeli military occupation , repression and wholesale denial of basic human rights , mass shootings of Palestinians by the IDF then suicide attacks , then rockets............... yep happy now :roll:

 

[Fledermaus]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Israeli military occupation , repression and wholesale denial of basic human rights , mass shootings of Palestinians by the IDF then suicide attacks , then rockets............... yep happy now :roll:

The Gaza is not occupied.... Stop.

Just stop.

Time after time I have corrected your inaccuracies only to have you regurgitate them once again...

 

[Fledermaus]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

AFAIK none have been fired since the March of Return despite all of the fatalities that have racked up in them

Be sure though , our " pro Israeli " folk here , will not see a resumption , should it come , as a response to those killings.

The cart has to be put before the horse , that's their rules

You misspelled riots.

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

The Gaza is not occupied.... Stop.

Just stop.

Time after time I have corrected your inaccuracies only to have you regurgitate them once again...

It's a matter of opinion whether you think the vast control Israel still imposes on the people of Gaza constitutes effective control over them.

What is not in doubt is that it sure ain't autonomy in Gaza , that you think it is shows either an inaccurate assessment at best or a complete ignorance of what autonomy means

 

[Fledermaus]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

It's a matter of opinion whether you think the vast control Israel still imposes on the people of Gaza constitutes effective control over them.

What is not in doubt is that it sure ain't autonomy in Gaza , that you think it is shows either an inaccurate assessment at best or a complete ignorance of what autonomy means

You have been wrong on so many levels....

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

You misspelled riots.

And you avoided having to confirm the lack of rockets fired into Israel at a time it has shot and killed dozens and dozens of Palestinians.

I would rather be accused of a misspelling than a lack of courage

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

You have been wrong on so many levels....

No I haven't, I just force you into positions were you do your usual avoid answering awkward questions , or in your case any questions. You have had to resort to add hominems. etc etc

All signs that you lack the wherewithal to actual hold your own in a debate

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

You have been wrong on so many levels....

So are the Palestinians enjoying autonomy in Gaza ?

 

[CJ 2.0]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

when was the last time rockets were fired into israel?

Relevance? Israeli countermeasures and deterrence have worked. That doesn’t mean neither countermeasures nor deterrence were or continue to be necessary.




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[CJ 2.0]

What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Europeans have " tons of rights " but if someone invaded Spain , militarily occupied them and violated/denied then their rights people would rightly criticize it and seek to undermine it.

Catalonia? They have a right to resist occupation? The Kurds in Turkey? Turkish Cyprus? Northern Ireland?




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[CJ 2.0]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

It's a matter of opinion whether you think the vast control Israel still imposes on the people of Gaza constitutes effective control over them.

What is not in doubt is that it sure ain't autonomy in Gaza , that you think it is shows either an inaccurate assessment at best or a complete ignorance of what autonomy means

It is not a matter of opinion that “control” equals occupation. There is no military occupation of Gaza, period. That’s a fact.


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[Fledermaus]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

So are the Palestinians enjoying autonomy in Gaza ?

Who is in charge of Gaza?

It isn't the Israeli government.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

See how you just ignore what the first intifada started off as and move straight to a suicide attack ( 2 years in )? Do you know why you do this ? Because you don't care to try to understand what has happened to the Palestinians. They are violent so they start an intifada. Not that they are occupied and systematically violated so they start an intifada. It's just an outright racist approach that colours nearly all of your posts


This is a big part of the problem as to why you can't comprehend why people hold an opposing position

The first intifada was widespread protests ,civil disobedience , strikes , boycotts etc and it was only after the IDF had killed hundreds of Palestinians that the first suicide attack took place two years after the start of the intifada.

How quickly you forget your own posts. Your claim was that Israel clamped down before rocket fire in 1989-90. You forgot that the suicide attack on the bus occurred just before Israel clamped down. It would be nice if the Intifada only included "widespread protests, civil disobedience, strikes, and boycotts," but it included more, didn't it? It included much more and that demanded a response from Israel. The gazans seemed incapable of controlling themselves, so they had to be controlled by outside forces (Israel).

Be honest you don't really care that hundreds of Palestinians lives were lost before any suicide attacks took place. That you can leap in two years and only show horror at the lose of 16 innocent lives whilst completely ignoring the shocking slaughter of hundreds of Palestinians

I would prefer if innocent palestinians could live as opposed to dying -- but I know that they're dying because of their own acts. It's the same as what's happening in Chicago "hoods" -- the gangs are being shot because of their own actions/reactions, which is why liberals ignore their plight. Only the ones who are dying can stop the killing.

What you class as " clamping down " should be presented in the right context. They were , and still are , clamping down on a people they are occupying militarily and illegally settling whilst systematically denying those people their basic human rights and their right to self determination. Not wishing to factor this in shows a large degree of bias imo

The dying and clamping down will continue until gazans are relocated. It's the only answer, and if you wanted them to survive, you would advocate for it.

And the Israelis use the US arsenal to spread their violence.

You deny the Palestinians the right to respond to Israeli military occupation and illegal settlement , repression and brutality and only want to delude yourself that none of this should be a reason for a response from them.

The Israeli exrajudicial killings I was referring to will also illicit a response

Your starting position is obviously , no matter what violations Israel might commit against Palestinians , no matter the occupation , no matter the extrajudicial murders , no matter the thousands in administrative detention , the denial of basic human rights etc etc they have no right to respond to these themselves. That is a right you reserve for Jews only and that's why it is a racist outlook

Israel is entitled to the land won in a defensive war. They cannot occupy their own land. Palestinians do have a right to self-determination, but not in Gaza. They've lost that right there due to their alliance with Hamas. The only way they could make amends is to round up and turn over every Hamas member, young or old, and then perhaps, they'd have a chance at living the way they could have lived before the idiots in their midst started trying to destroy Israel. But, short of that, forget it. It's all be tried. It's all history.

Everything you promote has already been tried -- and has failed.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Europeans have " tons of rights " but if someone invaded Spain , militarily occupied them and violated/denied then their rights people would rightly criticize it and seek to undermine it.

This is not about Arabs it is specifically about Palestinians

And, this is no longer about "Palestinians" but rather about Gazans. Palestinians in the West Bank and Golan have reached peaceful agreements with Israel. The trouble is really about the Gazan holdouts -- and the PA (as well as the rest of the civilized world) is not thrilled with Hamas.

Egypt has been and remains pretty much a US client proxy that has repressed it's own people for decades. They are scared of the Muslim/Islamic popular forces amongst the dirt poor in the Sinai gaining power/momentum.

Egypt violates human rights -- to be sure -- but nothing along the lines of what Hamas and/or Taliban factions do. Egypt knows the danger and devolution that can occur if the nutbags (read Gazans) are allowed to come and go as they please. Egypt learned an important lesson when they elected Morsi -- they learned that the lowbrow extremist Muslims could ruin their nation. I don't think they are "scared" of them, as you say, but I do think that they want more than a theocratic backwards nation.

What you want to believe is that some other group seems to confirm your racist view of Gazans as nothing more than terrorist automatons. Their reasons for not helping Gazans are not because they hold the same view as you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Gazans, in general, are terrorists. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. And, it's not a matter of Egypt "not helping Gazans" as you say - rather, it's a matter of Egypt trying to contain the terrorist faction, Hamas. If you don't know that, why are you even trying to debate in a Middle Eastern forum. Even a tiny bit of research will tell you that.

I have and because I know a little about the state of Egypt I don't hold the same view as you do. Think about that yourself

You may know "a little about the state of Egypt" but you don't know much. And, you've failed to tell us why Egypt does not want Gazans in their country. You claimed it was not about terrorism, but you failed to tell us why you thought it was occurring. I challenge you to do a little research and then come back and tell us why Egypt barricades the Gazans from their nation. I dare you.

Reality is, no one wants the Gazans, and the reason is clear, they cannot get along with their neighbors. The only hope for those people is to relocate them OUT of Gaza and send them to various locations in the Arab world where they can have new lives and end their obsessive focus on destroying Israel.

Nothing else will work. You should know that.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

AFAIK none have been fired since the March of Return despite all of the fatalities that have racked up in them

Be sure though , our " pro Israeli " folk here , will not see a resumption , should it come , as a response to those killings.

The cart has to be put before the horse , that's their rules

Why are we required to see terrorism as the response to anything?

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

It is not a matter of opinion that “control” equals occupation. There is no military occupation of Gaza, period. That’s a fact.


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There's a concept in IHL called effective control

My use of this term is to qualify that there is no real autonomy enjoyed by the people of Gaza. And that's a fact

If you don't like the qualification that's fine but if you don't control your airspace , coastal waters , population registry , goods in and out , people in and out ,passport control etc etc you don't have autonomy. Hence my choice of terminology

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Why are we required to see terrorism as the response to anything?

Because if you don't you have a false picture of the cycle of violence.

You evidently would want to keep it that way for obvious reasons

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Who is in charge of Gaza?

It isn't the Israeli government.

Are you really that scared to answer the question I put to you ?

Is that what they teach you in delude yourself that you win every argument classes ?

 

[oneworld2]

Re: What is it about Israeli-Palestine Discussions?

Catalonia? They have a right to resist occupation? The Kurds in Turkey? Turkish Cyprus? Northern Ireland?




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Catalonia hasn't broken away from Spain properly yet and the support for it is highly controversial with many Catalans wishing to remain part of Spain.

As for the rest , yes if they choose to.

I would have supported the First Nation Americans right to resist had I been around then

I would support Israelis right to resist if they ever got steam rolled and occupied by an Arab neighbour state

For reasons best known to yourself , though I have a feeling I know where this comes from , you think that the Palestinians shouldn't have that right