We Know the Cure for Poverty: The Empowerment of Women

[Iron_Merc]

Then you should consider spending less time on the internet, actually get out and do some nose to the grindstone research, and get actual facts that can be experienced first hand, because I can guarantee you that your lil internet theory is severely flawed. You can start right now by telling us exactly how many Satanists you've met and interviewed face to face....if any...

When I lived in VT, probably 5-6 out of the 100 or so people that I interviewed (in person) about politics. I ran into a couple anarchists as well, they're a hoot! An all the Satanists did in fact lean to the left.

Saul Alinsky, known Satanist and mentor to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

 

[Logician Man]

When I lived in VT, probably 5-6 out of the 100 or so people that I interviewed (in person) about politics. I ran into a couple anarchists as well, they're a hoot! An all the Satanists did in fact lean to the left.

Saul Alinsky, known Satanist and mentor to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

Is this Satan character conservative or liberal, in your opinion ?

 

[minnie616]

The 50 million number is likely much lower than the actual number, So this is voluntary reporting and this in and of itself is concerning to me? ....

You can claim that the number might be slightly off on one direction or the other. But if we take away 10 million abortions just for the sake of argument, that still leaves us with 40 million abortions since 1973 alone,,,!

Not really, since those stats also include the estimated numbers in areas that do not report.

Also instead of looking at the total number of abortions since 1973 .....which was accumulated over 46 years.

Look at how much the rate of abortion has fallen over the years.

In the mid 1980s about 30 out of 100 of pregnancies in the UNited States ended in abortion.

( the increase in the early 1980s was partly to blame by the birth control pill scare when the FDA advised women to stop using birth control pills because the high estrogen the old pills had caused blood clots, strokes , and heart attacks ) the new pills are safer plus there are more choices regarding reliable birth control methods.

By 2014 the US abortion rate was about 17 out of 100 pregnancies.

That rate is lower than Denmark, Sweden, France , Canada and ties with rate of abortions per 100 pregnancies with the United Kingdom even those many European countries only have elective abortion in the first trimester.

The fact that over 68 percent of US women use birth control medication consistently so there are fewer unplanned pregnancies is a big factor in lowering the number of abortions.


Unless something medical goes terribly wrong with a pregnacy ....
Women do not abort a planned wanted pregnancy.

 

[minnie616]

Because a baby or "fetus" has distinct DNA that is different from that of the mother and father. This means the woman does not and should not have "total" control over her body she is carrying another life force inside her. ....We don't get to play God with our offspring. ...

...

What makes you think the unborn is of more value than the born ?


And why do think your religion is more important than my Pro Choice Christian religion?


Or more important than the vast majority of those of the Jewish faith who put the life of the woman ahead of the unborn?

The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice sincerely believes that access to birth control and legal elective abortions are a part of our religious liberty in the United States.

From the RCRC:

Religious Liberty

Our religious principles: We are attuned to the important role of our diverse faiths in personal and public life. We treasure the religious freedom guaranteed Americans since our nation’s founding.

Our advocacy position: Good policy allows people of all religions to follow their own faiths and consciences in their own lives. In reproductive health, rights and justice, we define religious liberty as the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family and her faith. The religious beliefs of others should not interfere.

The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

 

[uptower]

Where did you dig that up? And why?
"... quote that has seemingly escaped the pro-birth crowd" assumes a great deal.
The guy's been dead for 8 years.
Why would you think something he said near the end of his own life would carry any weight with pro-lifers anyway?

probably because the Right loved Hitchens when he railed against religion in the form of Islam, but are curiously silent when he shows he applies the same standards to evangelicals.

 

[Rickeroo]

First of all your stats are wrong.

In the US the abortion rate is 17 percent as of 2014. That includes all abortions ...not just the elective abortions.
That even includes the hospital abortions where labor is induced early or a c-section is performed because the fetus is already dead or would not live for more than a few minutes or hours if it survived birth.

It includes abortions that were performed because the fetus had catastrophic deformities.

So your stats mean nothing to me.

What is more important to me is that the woman is a moral agent.

She is the one who risks her life/her long term health to become a mother and she should have the decision if she wishes to take the chance to continue her pregnancy.

Over 60 percent of women who have abortions have at least one child they are raising. Each pregnancy may put added stress on her resources and her decision whether her health and her life circumstances would allow her to care for a new addition while she is still able to take of her family present and future.

Also you seemed NOT to understand that 1 out 10 pregnancies puts the life or her long term health at risk.

For every woman who dies from pregnancy and/ or childbirth complications 70 more women had near misses. Many of those misses involve life long complications.

My daughter ( who had HELLP syndrome ) has complications, my first pregnancy damaged my kidneys and ( another DP member of this forum ) Year2late also has lifelong complications.

It seems you only focus on deaths and care nothing about the women who suffered strokes, heart attacks, paralysis from the neck down , kidney damage , liver damage , etc.

Guttmacher says it's 19%, not including miscarriages:

Induced Abortion in the United States | Guttmacher Institute

You didn't answer me. Of that 19%, how many are done to save the mother's life or the fetus is beyond hope? I'm thinking "not many". Those are the abortions that have a moral standing.

There are way too many people alive today that would not sacrifice their entire life experience (and perhaps their children and grandchildren) in order so that their mother wasn't "inconvenienced" during their fetal stage - or horror of horrors, she has to raise a child. I certainly wouldn't want to make that sacrifice. I show it every day by waking up and living life - something the aborted can never do because "someone else" made that decision for them. All of us show that we wouldn't want to be aborted ourselves, well the millions of us who don't commit suicide anyway.

 

[Rickeroo]

Man, those are some crazy numbers. Good thing fetuses are nonsentient clumps of meat with no actual sentience or personhood, otherwise it would be bad to abort them.

Very true. Abortions don't exist - the abortion doctor simply tells the woman to wait 9 months, and a slab of goo comes out. No feeding, no crying, no worries. Abortion not required. My mother actually gave birth to her own thumb. How I got here is a complete mystery.

 

[Rickeroo]

Nobody cares what you'd accept. We have a Constitution that protects us from people like you.

Again...responding with nothing but numbers. I spoke of the true, real-life human cost. And you didnt address it at all. You just basically repeated yourself. With dehumanizing numbers.

Please address what I wrote, instead of reducing women and the unborn to numbers:

So you are using just numbers as the basis for your view?

That's pretty dehumanizing. Esp. when Minnie has explained that every single pregnancy is a real risk to a woman's life...it cant be predicted and it cant always be prevented. We dont know....and you know very well that it's true. Every single woman going into labor is afraid. Her husband/bf fears for her life and that of the baby. Every friend and family member waiting to hear is also worried. The risks are real...that's why we all worry.

And since we dont know...who are you to force that risk on women you dont even know? (If you would see laws that did so). The govt doesnt. The Const protects women from that.

The risk to women is significant and if you want to look at numbers, think about the real loss here, the effects in real life. If she dies, then her husband/bf, parents, other children, brothers, sisters, other relatives, friends...all lose a loved one. Why do you value the loss of the unborn more than this? This is reality for these people. Is it the same for the unborn? Except for the prospective parents...not likely.

It's about way more than numbers.​

Dying in childbirth is rare. Everyone knows that most abortions aren't to save the mother, and they aren't because the fetus is malformed. They are performed for convenience reasons that had we had a voice, we would not have consented to.

You speak of women and the unborn. "I" was the unborn. I know what would have happened if I was aborted. All my stats, all my typing, all my arguments stem from one source, one fact: "I" was the unborn you're talking about.

 

[Obscurity]

Obviously you are for abortion. Abortion allows a woman, who might otherwise be out of the workforce for months or even years, to instead be out for only a week or two then continue serving her corporate masters. Motherhood is bad for business, and there's obviously nothing you care more about than the interests of big business.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're on about. Abortion, for me, has nothing to do with a woman working. She can work if she wants to, or she can stay home and be a mom full time. I don't particularly care because those private decisions are not my business. I think you forgot; they aren't yours, either.

 

[Obscurity]

When I lived in VT, probably 5-6 out of the 100 or so people that I interviewed (in person) about politics. I ran into a couple anarchists as well, they're a hoot! An all the Satanists did in fact lean to the left.

Saul Alinsky, known Satanist and mentor to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

Satanism has better tenets than Christianity does. One of their commandments so to speak is you shall not make sexual advances on another unless reciprocated. Interesting that in the Satanic bible this is a command; in the Christian bible, the Hebrews are told to keep virginal women of conquered and genocided tribes for "purposes undescribed."

 

[bubbabgone]

probably because the Right loved Hitchens when he railed against religion in the form of Islam, but are curiously silent when he shows he applies the same standards to evangelicals.

It's been almost a week. I had forgotten this thread.
It's still weird to think the pro-life movement was driven by what Hitchens thought about about abortion.
Yes, he had his own view of abortion. It conflicted with both sides on the issue.
Maybe that escaped the pro-abortion crowd ... and the OP.

 

[WCH]

All you have to support your nonsensical position are crummy one-liners and half-hearted puns. Pathetic.

As far as a reply, you didn't give me much to work with. Perhaps it was your lack of empathy.

You assume it has no conscious but, it's still a living being that whose life you have devalued.

 

[minnie616]

Guttmacher says it's 19%, not including miscarriages:

Induced Abortion in the United States | Guttmacher Institute

You didn't answer me. Of that 19%, how many are done to save the mother's life or the fetus is beyond hope? I'm thinking "not many". Those are the abortions that have a moral standing.

....

I got my percentage stats from the following chart:


Abortion rates by country (list by country)


Why do you think “ not many “ abortions are to save the woman’s life or the the fetus is beyond hope?

Every time the fetus is dead from a natural cause or non viable , the removal of the fetus is an abortion and it is added to the abortion stats.

A dead or dying fetus puts thee woman at his risk for a life threatening septic infection.

Even if the woman has induced labor or a c- section it is still abortion.

From the following:

There is a false belief that induction of labor early for a lethal anomaly is not an abortion. It is.

The end.
...
Why can’t they just have a c-section?

First of all, a c-section for an early delivery of a non-viable fetus is still an abortion. #TheMoreYouKnow.

That people don’t grasp this is shocking. And why these discussions are best left to experts who don’t impose their own religion on patients.

Abortions at or after 24 weeks are sometimes needed medically. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. – Dr. Jen Gunter


Now that the 18 to 20 week ultrasounds show up some of the most catastrophic fetal defects many women choose an abortion.

Even so 3 percent of all births in the US have major defects of those with defects will die from their defects and complications of the defects before their first birthday.

And why do you think only your morals count?

Many women chose abortion for moral reasons.

Over 60 percent of women already have at lest one born born child they are raising.

Keeping their child/ children safe and cared for is a moral reason.

From the following:

In the following <SNIP> a women with 5 children resells of of struggles to try to raise money for an abortion when her husband was laid off his job during the last recession and she found out she was expecting again. Because they loved their children very much they decided she needed an abortion.She sold her wedding ring and other items but still did not have enough to pay the abortion so she aked for help funding the abortion:

Here is a <SNIP> from her story.

Sonia has 5 kids and her husband was just laid off.

I love my big family...and I love my children too much to have another baby right now.

My husband and I have five children. We love kids and we love having a big family. But when my husband got laid off from his contractor job, having a big family got really hard.

When I found out I was pregnant again, it was terrifying. We love the idea of another child -- but we love the children we have too much to add that kind of stress to our family right now.

I'm only working part-time and I couldn't get maternity leave, so I might not be able to keep my job with another little one. I hated that we had to make this decision, but it turned out that making the decision was the easiest part. Because then we had to find the money to pay for an abortion.

We started taking stuff to the pawn shop: our vacuum cleaner, my wedding ring, our family television, the old desktop computer. When that wasn't enough, we took my husband's tools and his drills.

That was the hardest trip. My husband's been trying to pick up construction work. Without his tools or his drills, there's hardly anyone who'll hire him.

And after all that, we were short on what we needed. But the woman at the clinic gave us the name of an abortion fund.

An abortion fund. Who knew, right?

They gave us what we needed.

And when I broke down on the phone and admitted that we didn't even have gas money to get to the clinic, they helped us with that, too.

So now I pay the pawn shop every month to keep our things -- my wedding ring and my husband's tools are the only ones we can afford to pay on. And if you miss a month, the payment is doubled from then on. So we're stuck in this cycle. We'll be paying for this abortion for a long time.

But the panic is gone. The rest of it, well...we'll figure it out. We'll do whatever we have to do to take care of our family.

Sonia has 5 kids and her husband was just laid off. | Fund Abortion Now.org

 

[WCH]

That doesn't answer my question.

We were using BC but, no we had not discussed abortion that I can recall.

 

[WCH]

Sanger did not say that coloured people are like human weeds and need to be exterminated. Stop perpetuating that lie.

She's just like any other pro-abortionists....believing any excuse to kill the unborn is a good one, some cases more than others.

13 Controversial Quotes From Planned Parenthood's Founder

 

[WCH]

Is that representative of your relationship with women. Even more reason for religious conservatives to be cut off from the conversation about anything having to do with women, family, reproduction, sex, and religion.

No, but it's indicative of current societal behavior. [99% of abortions are for social convenience]

 

[year2late]

She's just like any other pro-abortionists....believing any excuse to kill the unborn is a good one, some cases more than others.

13 Controversial Quotes From Planned Parenthood's Founder

Did they miss this one?

Although abortion may be resorted to in order to save the life of the mother, the practice of it merely for limitation of offspring is dangerous and vicious.

I find it funny that Sanger's name is invoked so much because abortions were not even offered by Planned Parenthood until long after her death.

 

[Obscurity]

It's been almost a week. I had forgotten this thread.
It's still weird to think the pro-life movement was driven by what Hitchens thought about about abortion.
Yes, he had his own view of abortion. It conflicted with both sides on the issue.
Maybe that escaped the pro-abortion crowd ... and the OP.

No. It jives with my own interpretation; I dislike abortion, and I do not want people to get them - but I also understand the necessity of it as accessible; moreover, I share Hitchens' view that the church exists to proliferate poverty to further its own power and dogmatic pursuit of evangelism.

 

[prometeus]

She's just like any other pro-abortionists....believing any excuse to kill the unborn is a good one, some cases more than others.

13 Controversial Quotes From Planned Parenthood's Founder

Those quotes indicate that she was more like you.

 

[prometeus]

No, but it's indicative of current societal behavior. [99% of abortions are for social convenience]

And it is still none of your business.

 

[Dragonfly]

[99% of abortions are for social convenience]

Provide proof for this claim. Please.

 

[Iron_Merc]

Is this Satan character conservative or liberal, in your opinion ?

Come on now! I don't want to give away all my secrets!

But it goes like this:
God created conservativism ergo a constitutional representative republic was formed (capitalism) (Government for the people)
Satan created liberalism ergo a socialist/communist/marxist state was formed (anti-capitalism) (The people for the government)

 

[Logician Man]

Come on now! I don't want to give away all my secrets!

But it goes like this:
God created conservativism ergo a constitutional representative republic was formed (capitalism) (Government for the people)
Satan created liberalism ergo a socialist/communist/marxist state was formed (anti-capitalism) (The people for the government)

Safe to say you can't prove any of the above positive claims ? It appears you are here to preach, not to debate. Is that your agenda ?

 

[Iron_Merc]

What makes you think the unborn is of more value than the born ?


And why do think your religion is more important than my Pro Choice Christian religion?


Or more important than the vast majority of those of the Jewish faith who put the life of the woman ahead of the unborn?

The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice sincerely believes that access to birth control and legal elective abortions are a part of our religious liberty in the United States.

From the RCRC:




The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

First off, there is no such thing as a pro choice Christian woman. They don't truly know God, if that is the case.

I believe the unborn is just as valuable as the born, not more or less. I think all our hopes and dreams and aspirations are placed in our children, and that IS A GOOD THING.

Remember, just because its "legal" doesn't make it right in Gods eyes. The RCRC is clearly pro choice. This is not acceptable in my opinion.

 

[Iron_Merc]

Safe to say you can't prove any of the above positive claims ? It appears you are here to preach, not to debate. Is that your agenda ?

No, you were asking me about satan so I responded.

Here is the RUB.

Many issues in todays complex world are actually at their root, religious in nature.

This is why I have to bring God up so much. But Im not trying to push him on anyone, just show you how he fits into our complicated world.