We Know the Cure for Poverty: The Empowerment of Women

[AmNat]

A Hitchens quote that has seemingly escaped the pro-birth crowd:



Think of the stark progress the pro-birthers are trying to destroy; the ability for a thinking, contributing, personified member of our public being forced to endure something against their will; being forced to allow another entity (not a person) to use their life force; to then cut funding for aide to people; and to criminalize a medical procedure.

This is precisely why the overton window must be shifted back to the center.

These conversations, about abortion, and many other issues deemed sanct to the religious right, are not conversations a super power, western, advanced nation should be having; the case is closed. We know the result of backward thinking; we've LIVED the reality of the pro-birth position and have changed our ways, and yet, the pro-birth crowd insists it will be.. different, this time.

No, it won't. Enabling their vampiric religious belief to enact policy and undermine jurisprudence and constitutional rights will destroy this country.

Obviously you are for abortion. Abortion allows a woman, who might otherwise be out of the workforce for months or even years, to instead be out for only a week or two then continue serving her corporate masters. Motherhood is bad for business, and there's obviously nothing you care more about than the interests of big business.

 

[Logician Man]

Honestly I'm new to debating.. I am a "newborn" on the forum here, only 2 days old. I was not aborted.

That being said, I will do my best too get you the facts. Where shall we start? Do you want information on the total number of abortions?

Just name specifics and I will do my best to get you the relevant data.

First things first. You've made several God claims you haven't supported with any 'facts.' You either need to predicate your claim(s) with 'this is my 'opinion' about God (s )', or you need to 'prove' these claims you are making about God (s ) are actually factual. Inability to do so means your God claims, can, and will, be dismissed.

 

[Iron_Merc]

What, 'precisely', do you do to 'fight for life' for the unborn ? How much skin do you actually have in the game other than tapping on a keyboard in a chat forum ? ( if anything )

Its the moral principle - this is what I stand for. Most women don't realize they will be much more unhappy after the abortion. It actually has the potential to ruin these young girls lives. I have protested outside an abortion clinic. I have protested abortion at an anti trump rally in Brattleboro VT. If I get an opportunity to discuss the harms of abortion I will. Always respectful in person, I never try to force the issue...

In a sense, this is a mind set attached to conservativism. I don't have to go out and physically do something in order to get credit. Its what laws and legislation you support because that's what dictates the legality of abortion. Advocate for the change you want to see.

 

[Logician Man]

Its the moral principle - this is what I stand for. Most women don't realize they will be much more unhappy after the abortion. It actually has the potential to ruin these young girls lives. I have protested outside an abortion clinic. I have protested abortion at an anti trump rally in Brattleboro VT. If I get an opportunity to discuss the harms of abortion I will. Always respectful in person, I never try to force the issue...

In a sense, this is a mind set attached to conservativism. I don't have to go out and physically do something in order to get credit. Its what laws and legislation you support because that's what dictates the legality of abortion. Advocate for the change you want to see.

Suffice it to say I have much more skin in the game, I'm much more familar with PP ( on a personal basis ), what PP does, what they don't do. You're fighting the wrong battle. PP doesn't recruit women for abortions. Women seek out out PP for all sorts of medical services, including abortions. I can personally vouch for one PP counselor whp played the key role in helping talk one young female out of getting an abortion, twice. I would be very interested in you presenting your unbiased data to support your claim that most woman who receive abortions later regret it.

 

[Iron_Merc]

First things first. You've made several God claims you haven't supported with any 'facts.' You either need to predicate your claim(s) with 'this is my 'opinion' about God (s )', or you need to 'prove' these claims you are making about God (s ) are actually factual. Inability to do so means your God claims, can, and will, be dismissed.

Evidence for God?
I would say the first thing to do is take a look at Jesus' life (and death) on the cross. I think everyone knows Jesus did in fact exist. The only question remaining is was he the son of God?

I have been to Israel and walked where jesus walked. I have seen the old city gate in Jerusalem. I have seen the rich, religious history that is almost overwhelming there is so much of it. I have been to Masada, Hebron, it was quite an amazing trip. Really opened my eyes to the possibility that God exists. And he is real, but every human has to find that out for themselves - nothing I say is going to PROVE to YOUR heart that God is alive. And I will warn you. The path ahead is not easy. Many are deceived and will never know the true Living God. Only a select few will make it to the Kingdom. And that race is by no means finished for me, I am still running.

So back to evidence of God existing. Well, we have the Bible - Think of this as a operational manual for moral human protocol. Some say the Bible is flawed, but I say look beyond that. IF Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for your sins - that means your life can be redeemed. The song Amazing grace comes to mind.

Also look into George Forman's testimony:
YouTube

George Foreman Round 10 KO on Moorer
YouTube

The Lord will give you the desires of your heart.

 

[minnie616]

For me, everything about PP is eclipsed by the practice of abortion. If Planned Parenthood does good things for the neighborhood, more power to them. But I still cant justify that in the face of close to 50 million abortions and that is a very low estimate.

There were millions of abortion in the US before Roe was passed.

Those abortions were not performed by Planned Parenthoods.

Planned Parenhoods just gave out birth control and family planning info.

In the early 1930s when abortions were against the law there was an estimated 800,000 abortions a year.

Planned Parenthood is not responsible for every abortion since Roe legalized abortions in all states.

Do you realized all legal abortions are included in 50 million figure including abortions of fetuses with Catastrophic defects and the abortions of fetuses who were already dead in the womb from natural causes or those who were non viable. Even induction of labor a c - section of a non viable fetus is labeled as abortion and is included the abortion stats.

From:

There is a false belief that induction of labor early for a lethal anomaly is not an abortion. It is.

The end.

Why can’t they just have a c-section?

First of all, a c-section for an early delivery of a non-viable fetus is still an abortion. #TheMoreYouKnow.

That people don’t grasp this is shocking. And why these discussions are best left to experts who don’t impose their own religion on patients.

Abortions at or after 24 weeks are sometimes needed medically. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. – Dr. Jen Gunter

 

[Iron_Merc]

Suffice it to say I have much more skin in the game, I'm much more familar with PP ( on a personal basis ), what PP does, what they don't do. You're fighting the wrong battle. PP doesn't recruit women for abortions. Women seek out out PP for all sorts of medical services, including abortions. I can personally vouch for one PP counselor whp played the key role in helping talk one young female out of getting an abortion, twice. I would be very interested in you presenting your unbiased data to support your claim that most woman who receive abortions later regret it.

I never said PP recruited women for abortions. My evaluation of PP is based solely on the fact they do abortions. That is the problem for me. Sure they are an asset to the community for women, and in a perfect world I would allow PP to remain in business, albeit with a much different agenda.
My point is that abortion is not the answer. You can give your child to an adoption agency. There are resources available for young mothers. The very role of a women is questioned by PP, and that is something I don't like. Women should aspire to be mothers, not turn away from that. The family unit is a beautiful thing, why would we want to keep that from the unborn? And I hate to bring up God again, but he tells us children are a blessing, and I am inclined to believe that (although I've had no children as of yet). We need better community action to help expectant mothers succeed. I almost feel like abortion is a cop out. Its like you are cheating the natural order of life. Even if there is no God, you cant argue with the fact that abortion is unnatural.

 

[Logician Man]

Evidence for God?
I would say the first thing to do is take a look at Jesus' life (and death) on the cross. I think everyone knows Jesus did in fact exist. The only question remaining is was he the son of God?

I have been to Israel and walked where jesus walked. I have seen the old city gate in Jerusalem. I have seen the rich, religious history that is almost overwhelming there is so much of it. I have been to Masada, Hebron, it was quite an amazing trip. Really opened my eyes to the possibility that God exists. And he is real, but every human has to find that out for themselves - nothing I say is going to PROVE to YOUR heart that God is alive. And I will warn you. The path ahead is not easy. Many are deceived and will never know the true Living God. Only a select few will make it to the Kingdom. And that race is by no means finished for me, I am still running.

So back to evidence of God existing. Well, we have the Bible - Think of this as a operational manual for moral human protocol. Some say the Bible is flawed, but I say look beyond that. IF Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for your sins - that means your life can be redeemed. The song Amazing grace comes to mind.

Also look into George Forman's testimony:
YouTube

George Foreman Round 10 KO on Moorer
YouTube

The Lord will give you the desires of your heart.

You've replaced the word 'proof' with the word 'evidence.' That's not really not going to help you 'prove' that any God(s) exist. But don't feel too badly, no one to date has ever proven any God(s) actually exist. ( including yours ) However, should you feel you have a rock solid case that you can indeed prove your God exists, The Nobel Foundation has a longstanding offer of 1 million dollars to anyone who can definitively prove any God(s) exist. Just a heads up. In all of that time the award has been there to claim, no one has ever claimed that award.

 

[Logician Man]

I never said PP recruited women for abortions. My evaluation of PP is based solely on the fact they do abortions. That is the problem for me. Sure they are an asset to the community for women, and in a perfect world I would allow PP to remain in business, albeit with a much different agenda.
My point is that abortion is not the answer. You can give your child to an adoption agency. There are resources available for young mothers. The very role of a women is questioned by PP, and that is something I don't like. Women should aspire to be mothers, not turn away from that. The family unit is a beautiful thing, why would we want to keep that from the unborn? And I hate to bring up God again, but he tells us children are a blessing, and I am inclined to believe that (although I've had no children as of yet). We need better community action to help expectant mothers succeed. I almost feel like abortion is a cop out. Its like you are cheating the natural order of life. Even if there is no God, you cant argue with the fact that abortion is unnatural.

//// My evaluation of PP is based 'SOLELY' on the fact they do abortions //// <----- This is an subliminal admission of a closed mind, and a mind not open to being enlightened with all of the facts. That's 'your' problem, and 'your' loss.

 

[Iron_Merc]

There were millions of abortion in the US before Roe was passed.

Those abortions were not performed by Planned Parenthoods.

Planned Parenhoods just gave out birth control and family planning info.

In the early 1930s when abortions were against the law there was an estimated 800,000 abortions a year.

Planned Parenthood is not responsible for every abortion since Roe legalized abortions in all states.

Do you realized all legal abortions are included in 50 million figure including abortions of fetuses with Catastrophic defects and the abortions of fetuses who were already dead in the womb from natural causes or those who were non viable. Even induction of labor a c - section of a non viable fetus is labeled as abortion and is included the abortion stats.

From:



Abortions at or after 24 weeks are sometimes needed medically. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. – Dr. Jen Gunter

The 50 million number is likely much lower than the actual number, So this is voluntary reporting and this in and of itself is concerning to me? Why is there not mandatory reporting? Don't you think we deserve to see the real numbers? Sure, abortions were done well before Roe vs Wade, but Im talking on a large scale, industrial bases, no other organization in the US eclipses that of Planned Parenthood in terms of #s of abortions carried out.

You can claim that the number might be slightly off on one direction or the other. But if we take away 10 million abortions just for the sake of argument, that still leaves us with 40 million abortions since 1973 alone! These numbers are staggering, I mean the total number of men who died in all the wars that the US has ever fought dont even come close!

 

[Iron_Merc]

//// My evaluation of PP is based 'SOLELY' on the fact they do abortions //// <----- This is an subliminal admission of a closed mind, and a mind not open to being enlightened with all of the facts. That's 'your' problem, and 'your' loss.

Okay, so tell me how to think, if you want me to open my mind explain to me why I shouldn't evaluate PP on the primary basis of abortions. Im all ears.

 

[Logician Man]

The 50 million number is likely much lower than the actual number, So this is voluntary reporting and this in and of itself is concerning to me? Why is there not mandatory reporting? Don't you think we deserve to see the real numbers? Sure, abortions were done well before Roe vs Wade, but Im talking on a large scale, industrial bases, no other organization in the US eclipses that of Planned Parenthood in terms of #s of abortions carried out.

You can claim that the number might be slightly off on one direction or the other. But if we take away 10 million abortions just for the sake of argument, that still leaves us with 40 million abortions since 1973 alone! These numbers are staggering, I mean the total number of men who died in all the wars that the US has ever fought dont even come close!

If you take away 10 million abortions, you deprive 10 million women of their legal bodily autonomy, simply to satisfy your personal agendas. On what basis do you argue that you have the 'right' to deprive just one of those 10 million women of their legal, bodily autonomy rights ?

 

[Iron_Merc]

You've replaced the word 'proof' with the word 'evidence.' That's not really not going to help you 'prove' that any God(s) exist. But don't feel too badly, no one to date has ever proven any God(s) actually exist. ( including yours ) However, should you feel you have a rock solid case that you can indeed prove your God exists, The Nobel Foundation has a longstanding offer of 1 million dollars to anyone who can definitively prove any God(s) exist. Just a heads up. In all of that time the award has been there to claim, no one has ever claimed that award.

Like I said, Jesus is the best evidence for Gods existence. I mean, after all, we date time by this guy. Something important must have happened.

 

[Logician Man]

Okay, so tell me how to think, if you want me to open my mind explain to me why I shouldn't evaluate PP on the primary basis of abortions. Im all ears.

I'm not here to tell you, or anyone else how or what to think. However, when you freely admit in so many words your mind is closed, I will point that fact out, as this is a debating forum.

 

[Logician Man]

Like I said, Jesus is the best evidence for Gods existence. I mean, after all, we date time by this guy. Something important must have happened.

Go tell that to the Hindus who were around long before Jesus Christ, or Christianity, and get back with us and tell us what 'they' think about 'your' personal religious worldview.

 

[Iron_Merc]

If you take away 10 million abortions, you deprive 10 million women of their legal bodily autonomy, simply to satisfy your personal agendas. On what basis do you argue that you have the 'right' to deprive just one of those 10 million women of their legal, bodily autonomy rights ?

Because a baby or "fetus" has distinct DNA that is different from that of the mother and father. This means the woman does not and should not have "total" control over her body she is carrying another life force inside her. I think it's unfair to the mother and the unborn child. I think with abortion, ultimately, everyone loses. To satisfy my personal agenda? Excuse me but the human specifies requires women to sustain life as we know it. We don't get to play God with our offspring. My personal agenda is to save lives (fight for the rights of unborn babies), your personal agenda is to destroy lives(advocate for the practice of abortion) Your role model is Margaret Sanger and my role model is Mother Teresa. I think the difference in our thinking is polar opposite. Don't you care one bit about these fetuses? Don't you think they could live happy productive lives? What if you were aborted? Would you change your mind then?

And I meant hypothetically take 10 million off the total statistic

 

[Iron_Merc]

Go tell that to the Hindus who were around long before Jesus Christ, or Christianity, and get back with us and tell us what 'they' think about 'your' personal religious worldview.

What do the Hindus have to do with anything? They have a patchwork religion that has no holy book and no definite or set rules for belief. For example, the tree outside your window could be your God, or the coffee maker for that matter.

You can deflect away from Jesus all your want. Doesn't change the significance of his life or his saving grace.

 

[Logician Man]

Because a baby or "fetus" has distinct DNA that is different from that of the mother and father. This means the woman does not and should not have "total" control over her body she is carrying another life force inside her. I think it's unfair to the mother and the unborn child. I think with abortion, ultimately, everyone loses. To satisfy my personal agenda? Excuse me but the human specifies requires women to sustain life as we know it. We don't get to play God with our offspring. My personal agenda is to save lives (fight for the rights of unborn babies), your personal agenda is to destroy lives(advocate for the practice of abortion) Your role model is Margaret Sanger and my role model is Mother Teresa. I think the difference in our thinking is polar opposite. Don't you care one bit about these fetuses? Don't you think they could live happy productive lives? What if you were aborted? Would you change your mind then?

And I meant hypothetically take 10 million off the total statistic

You need to calm down and stop making silly accusations based on emotion. You haven't a clue about me, what I believe, what I have done, am doing, and will continue to do for the unborn. ( which, based on 'your' own personal testimony is a hell of a lot more than you have done, are doing, and most likely will/will not do in the future.

 

[Logician Man]

What do the Hindus have to do with anything? They have a patchwork religion that has no holy book and no definite or set rules for belief. For example, the tree outside your window could be your God, or the coffee maker for that matter.

You can deflect away from Jesus all your want. Doesn't change the significance of his life or his saving grace.

Well..Now would be a great opportunity to prove your religious beliefs are factual, and people with other religious worldviews are all wrong. The floor is yours....Go for it....I'll wait.........................................patiently

 

[Iron_Merc]

Well..Now would be a great opportunity to prove your religious beliefs are factual, and people with other religious worldviews are all wrong. The floor is yours....Go for it....I'll wait.........................................patiently

I cant prove it. That would spoil the mystery for everyone else. What I will say is some people on the far left give credit to and/or worship satan. Do you believe in evil? Do you believe evil is a real force in this world?

 

[Logician Man]

I cant prove it. That would spoil the mystery for everyone else. What I will say is some people on the far left give credit to and/or worship satan. Do you believe in evil? Do you believe evil is a real force in this world?

Are you going on record here at DP as stating unequivocally that there are no Conservative Satanists ?

 

[Iron_Merc]

Are you going on record here at DP as stating unequivocally that there are no Conservative Satanists ?

Yes I will make that statement. However, slightly modified. Some Satanists may initially be conservative, but as satan hardens their heart, they will start to develop a distinctly liberal ideology and way of life.

 

[Logician Man]

Yes I will make that statement. However, slightly modified. Some Satanists may initially be conservative, but as satan hardens their heart, they will start to develop a distinctly liberal ideology and way of life.

Is that a statement of 'opinion' or a statement of 'fact' ?

 

[Iron_Merc]

Is that a statement of 'opinion' or a statement of 'fact' ?

Its just my opinion. Just my theory. My little theory I've been working on an formulating since 2015 when I had back surgery and couldn't move for like 4 months. So it was just me and the internet. And my wonderful girlfriend, of course.

 

[Logician Man]

Its just my opinion. Just my theory. My little theory I've been working on an formulating since 2015 when I had back surgery and couldn't move for like 4 months. So it was just me and the internet. And my wonderful girlfriend, of course.

Then you should consider spending less time on the internet, actually get out and do some nose to the grindstone research, and get actual facts that can be experienced first hand, because I can guarantee you that your lil internet theory is severely flawed. You can start right now by telling us exactly how many Satanists you've met and interviewed face to face....if any...