[W:3596] Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage

[maquiscat]

Well it IS up for discussion because as a Priest in the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we believe marriage is a sacrament and if you expect us to recognize it as marriage it has to be administered as a sacrament.

Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I believe but don't bother trying to tell me what I should believe. Maybe YOU'RE not going to tell me I'm wrong but you're in a tiny minority.

Your beliefs are irrellevant to law, especially in a country that has freedom of religion. Why does your religious beliefs in what marriage is or isn't get to override another religion's belief in what marriage is or isn't? Ultimately, it doesn't matter if any religious organization recognizes a legal marriage as such or not. Your recognition or lack thereof does not impact secular law.

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[CLAX1911]

Well it IS up for discussion because as a Priest in the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we believe marriage is a sacrament and if you expect us to recognize it as marriage it has to be administered as a sacrament.

As a non Catholic why should I care what the Catholic Church thinks?

Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I believe but don't bother trying to tell me what I should believe.

As long as you don't tell me what I should believe I can respect that. The moment you try, that's out the window.

Maybe YOU'RE not going to tell me I'm wrong but you're in a tiny minority.

Let people tell you whatever they want, if you know you are right what difference does it make?

 

[Lursa]

I don't know how to make this any simpler: race and behavior are not the same thing and I defy any one of you to prove they are. Oh, I know I'll hear all the standard talking points but talking points aren't proof.

I never said or implied that. We are discussing equality and discrimination under the law.

And 'looks' are not a criteria for special classes.

 

[Lursa]

Well it IS up for discussion because as a Priest in the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we believe marriage is a sacrament and if you expect us to recognize it as marriage it has to be administered as a sacrament.

Has the Catholic Church been forced to recognize or perform gay marriages?

Not to my knowledge, so what's the problem?

 

[it's just me]

Has the Catholic Church been forced to recognize or perform gay marriages?

Not to my knowledge, so what's the problem?

Have bakers been forced to bake cakes, florists been forced to arrange flowers, and photographers forced to take pictures?

 

[it's just me]

I never said or implied that. We are discussing equality and discrimination under the law.

And 'looks' are not a criteria for special classes.

And you are comparing a behavior to belonging to a certain race. How does that work? It doesn't, it's a false equivalence, like I said before. But the real issue is that I don't care about what you do in your bedroom, but black is not white, up is not down, and right is not wrong. There are four lights!

 

[Lursa]

And you are comparing a behavior to belonging to a certain race. How does that work? It doesn't, it's a false equivalence, like I said before. But the real issue is that I don't care about what you do in your bedroom, but black is not white, up is not down, and right is not wrong. There are four lights!

What behavior am I referring to? What behavior are you referring to? Please explain.

 

[it's just me]

Your beliefs are irrellevant to law, especially in a country that has freedom of religion. Why does your religious beliefs in what marriage is or isn't get to override another religion's belief in what marriage is or isn't? Ultimately, it doesn't matter if any religious organization recognizes a legal marriage as such or not. Your recognition or lack thereof does not impact secular law.

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And your beliefs are irrelevant to my beliefs, and as long as you keep trying to force your beliefs on others by force of law there is no freedom of religion or anything else.

 

[it's just me]

What behavior am I referring to? What behavior are you referring to? Please explain.

What is this thread about?

 

[Lursa]

What is this thread about?

A legal right to marriage. Now you answer.

 

[it's just me]

A legal right to marriage. Now you answer.

No, it's not. It's about comparing marriage to non marriage and calling them the same thing. It's about you forcing your belief on others. It's about you claiming 2+2 = 5 and expecting me to buy into it.

 

[Lursa]

No, it's not. It's about comparing marriage to non marriage and calling them the same thing. It's about you forcing your belief on others. It's about you claiming 2+2 = 5 and expecting me to buy into it.

I never did that. Gay marriage is no different than straight marriage, they're the same things. Please tell me how they're different? People tried to say that different races marrying was 'not marriage' too...and that was BS too.

But feel free to tell me how those marriages...straight, gay, interracial....are different from each other in the day to day lives of those couples?

 

[maquiscat]

Have bakers been forced to bake cakes, florists been forced to arrange flowers, and photographers forced to take pictures?

I am.not aware of any photographer cases, but in the cases of the others, where the same sex couple has asked for standard generic products that were not SSM specific, the businesses have lost, and in the cases where specific SSM details were asked for, the businesses have won. So there is a distinction. Additionally, religious institutions are not held to the same standards as businesses. If a religious institution wishes to engage in business, such as rental of its facilities to non members, then they are required to uphold standard business practices. Mind you, I do not necessarily hold that all this should be. A business should be allowed to deny you for being Christian or Muslim, for being straight or gay, or for any reason. But that is a separate discussion. In terms of establishing a civil/legal institution, religion has no bearing on the matter, especially in a country with religious freedom.

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[maquiscat]

And your beliefs are irrelevant to my beliefs, and as long as you keep trying to force your beliefs on others by force of law there is no freedom of religion or anything else.

What believe is being forced upon you? You cannot force the belief that marriage is only for one man and one woman anymore than I can force the belief that marriage is for any number of individuals that wish to participate in such. These are both our individual religious beliefs, regardless of whether or not the other believe there is an actual basis for said belief.

Matters of law are separate from religious beliefs. The setting of the legal institution of marriage is something completely apart from any given religious institution of marriage, of which there are many. To limit the legal institution by reason of religion, is to also remove freedom of religion. However, to allow all forms within law, while still allowing a religious institution to not have it within their own places, is the very epitome of religious freedom.

Again, the issue of whether or not businesses can follow the religious beliefs of their owner(s) is a separate issue, one where we probably are more in agreement. But it is still a separate issue. Much as is the issue of whether or not we should even have a legal institution of marriage at all is separate from the issue of who would be allowed to enter such a legal institution.

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[it's just me]

I never did that. Gay marriage is no different than straight marriage, they're the same things. Please tell me how they're different? People tried to say that different races marrying was 'not marriage' too...and that was BS too.

But feel free to tell me how those marriages...straight, gay, interracial....are different from each other in the day to day lives of those couples?

And there it is again, you trying to compare interracial marriage to gay marriage. They're not the same thing, you are being dishonest.

 

[Lursa]

And there it is again, you trying to compare interracial marriage to gay marriage. They're not the same thing, you are being dishonest.

And still you cannot explain how the marriages are different. Please do. Day to day...what are they doing that's different?

They eat meals, raise kids, go to PTA, put out the garbage, mop up after sick kids, go on vacation, go to church, mow the lawn, pay the bills, have pets, have sex, go to work, have BBQs, etc etc etc.

Please explain the differences between gay, straight, and interracial marriages. Or just the first 2 if you insist.

 

[maquiscat]

And there it is again, you trying to compare interracial marriage to gay marriage. They're not the same thing, you are being dishonest.

Actually neither of you are being dishonest. She holds a belief that is different than yours. History shows that there is no one absolute definition of marriage. You don't see them as the same, she does. So in order to show that she is being dishonest, you have to come up with objective reasons as to why they are not the same. And behavior doesn't cut it. Unless you want to argue that a couple who gets "married" but never has sex aren't actually in a marriage.

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[CLAX1911]

Have bakers been forced to bake cakes, florists been forced to arrange flowers, and photographers forced to take pictures?

yes they have been and there shouldn't be. And I don't support that at all.

 

[CLAX1911]

And you are comparing a behavior to belonging to a certain race.

no she's comparing race to a sexual orientation. They're not the same and she's not saying that but there is a similarity.

Homosexuality does describe Behavior but it also describes a sexual orientation.

How does that work? It doesn't, it's a false equivalence, like I said before.

just above you said comparison now it's an equivalence? I agreed to equivocate race to sexual orientation would be a false equivocation. However there are aspects of sexual orientation that can compare to race.

But the real issue is that I don't care about what you do in your bedroom, but black is not white, up is not down, and right is not wrong. There are four lights!

Love the Star trek reference.

 

[Wan]

What believe is being forced upon you? You cannot force the belief that marriage is only for one man and one woman anymore than I can force the belief that marriage is for any number of individuals that wish to participate in such.

That marriage is only for one man and one more is not a belief. It's a definition.

I know it's not a universally agreed upon definition, but it is still a definition.

 

[Logician Man]

That marriage is only for one man and one more is not a belief. It's a definition.

I know it's not a universally agreed upon definition, but it is still a definition.

Actually it is only a biased 'opinion' or a 'belief.' ( not a 'definition' )....nothing more, nothing less.....and easily dismissed as B.S.

 

[RAMOSS]

Have bakers been forced to bake cakes, florists been forced to arrange flowers, and photographers forced to take pictures?

Not quite correct. They have been told they can't not sell a cake due to discrimination, but they don't have to customize one.

 

[it's just me]

And still you cannot explain how the marriages are different. Please do. Day to day...what are they doing that's different?

They eat meals, raise kids, go to PTA, put out the garbage, mop up after sick kids, go on vacation, go to church, mow the lawn, pay the bills, have pets, have sex, go to work, have BBQs, etc etc etc.

Please explain the differences between gay, straight, and interracial marriages. Or just the first 2 if you insist.

And you can't explain how they are the same. You don't have to be married to do domestic chores, you don't need another person at all.

 

[Lursa]

And you can't explain how they are the same. You don't have to be married to do domestic chores, you don't need another person at all.

?? I did. I spelled it out. If you're claiming now that couples living together are no different than married couples, I can get on board with that too. But it would have zero to do with sexual orientation (or race).

But I asked you first AND I provided a list of similarities. Now please show how they are different. I dont believe you can and that's why you are delaying.

 

[RAMOSS]

No, it's not. It's about comparing marriage to non marriage and calling them the same thing. It's about you forcing your belief on others. It's about you claiming 2+2 = 5 and expecting me to buy into it.

But why should I let you force your belief on mine?