[W:171]FBI chief Wray refutes Barr, says no 'spying' on Trump campaign

[Tanngrisnir]

Highly relevant. They are citing a specific example. Why not warn them in the spring?

Newp, not even remotely. Once it had been determined they were highly vulnerable to infilitration, they were informed and they did nothing. Didn't life a finger.

 

[Idiometer]

Did he really?

What was it that he did?

See the Mueller report, Volume I, pages 92 through 102.

 

[Idiometer]

The questions surrounding this seem to be what was the source of the info the Papadopoulos was repeating and why was it given to George P in the fist place.

We know it did NOT come from the Trump Campaign and that it was not relayed to the Trump Campaign.

The questions are where and why did the information come from, who/what was the driving force behind the dissemination and did the American Spies know about it before the info was given to George P.

RTFR!

FFS, read the damned report! Until you do, you posts are coming from a place of ignorance. There is an entire section on Papadopolous, just as there is an entire section on Carter Page and many others.

 

[Anthony60]

Exactly, until laws were passed to make it illegal. The investigation into the Trump campaign was totally legal and legitimate, no matter what the right wing snowflakes believe. All you are doing is regurgitating another of Trump's false narratives. He's playing the victim card, nothing more. Please stop helping him.

Uhhh... no. We don't know if it was legit or legal, that is why it needs to be investigated. And so far, it doesn't look like it was.

 

[Idiometer]

What is the distinction(s) that differentiates the two activities?

Spy, verb

Work for a government or other organization by secretly collecting information about enemies or competitors.
"he agreed to spy for the West"
• observe (someone) furtively.
"the couple were spied on by reporters"
• discern or make out, especially by careful observation.
"he could spy a figure in the distance"

Surveillance, noun
Close observation, especially of a suspected spy or criminal.
"he found himself put under surveillance by military intelligence"

Spying is a covert activity usually undertaken to find information on a corporation, a nation, an organization, or an individual, often to be used against them

Surveillance is an activity usually undrrtaken by law inforcement for the purpose of determing whether crimes have been committed.

The difference is subtle, but it is clear that to call a legal investigation "spying" is just simply stupid and wrong. Barr is playing up Trump's false narrative of being a victim.

 

[MTAtech]

Your denial is amazing.

You seemed to ask if a Democrat ever committed a crime.

I showed you that it has happened.

In passing, how do you feel about the "controversy" surrounding the Trump Campaign being spied on by the Obama Administration?

We know that Hillary, et al, didn't commit crimes. How do we know? Trump said he would prosecute her. Since he didn't, that's de facto evidence it was all hot air.

 

[Athanasius68]

Newp, not even remotely. Once it had been determined they were highly vulnerable to infilitration, they were informed and they did nothing. Didn't life a finger.

Quite close. Page was fired by the campaign.

 

[Tangmo]

What is the distinction(s) that differentiates the two activities?

Good question.

Google is your friend.

Specifically....

Surveillance
The concept of surveillance entails keeping continuous and close watch on an individual or group. It's a common dynamic security measure. Also, surveillance largely has legal authority.

Now, modern surveillance systems combine a wide variety of functionalities. These might include video recording, position sensing, imaging, tracking, metal detection and reporting. Businesses, government agencies, and residential homes now make use of these systems.



Spying
Spying, on the other hand, deploys clandestine means to extract secret information. It is often without due authorization.

Spying is a common practice of unscrupulous individuals and institutions. However, secret government agencies often take to spying for national interest reasons. For instance, spies may be deployed to uncover the strategies of terrorist organizations in order to nail them. In addition, exposure of most spying activities often results in negative legal and political consequences.

Spying Vs. Surveillance
Surveillance and spying are often confused because both involve information gathering. Also, like security surveillance, spying could involve a combination of technology and intelligence.

However, the main differences lie within the intents. If the intents aren’t to gain undue advantages, then spying is out of the question. Also, the level of secrecy of both activities matters – this is why highly covert surveillance measures are taken [mistakenly] as spying.

What's The Difference Between Spying And Surveillance?



There's plenty here for everyone yet the discerning mind will recognize that the key factors are two: legality; intent. Keep in mind that the FISA court does not order surveillance, it rather approves or denies surveillance. Further, the FISA court deals in surveillance, not spying. So Barr saying the Trump campaign was spied on is a Barr Faced Falsehood.

 

[Fenton]

Spy, verb

Work for a government or other organization by secretly collecting information about enemies or competitors.
"he agreed to spy for the West"
• observe (someone) furtively.
"the couple were spied on by reporters"
• discern or make out, especially by careful observation.
"he could spy a figure in the distance"

Surveillance, noun
Close observation, especially of a suspected spy or criminal.
"he found himself put under surveillance by military intelligence"

Spying is a covert activity usually undertaken to find information on a corporation, a nation, an organization, or an individual, often to be used against them

Surveillance is an activity usually undrrtaken by law inforcement for the purpose of determing whether crimes have been committed.

The difference is subtle, but it is clear that to call a legal investigation "spying" is just simply stupid and wrong. Barr is playing up Trump's false narrative of being a victim.

:lamo

James Clapper backtracks: FBI's actions meet 'dictionary definition of spying'

James Clapper backtracks: FBI's actions meet 'dictionary definition of spying'

 

[AlbqOwl]

FBI chief Wray refutes Barr, says no 'spying' on Trump campaign

Last month Bill Barr expressly stated he was of the mind that spying on the Trump campaign occurred:

Barr: "We’re worried about foreign influence in elections ... I think spying on a political campaign — it’s a big deal, it’s a big deal. I’m not suggesting that [rules enacted to ensure there's adequate basis for investigative actions] were violated, but I think it’s important to look at that. I’m not talking about the FBI necessarily, but intelligence agencies more broadly."
Sen. Shaheen: "You’re not suggesting that spying occurred?"
Barr: "I think spying did occur."
(Source)​

Yet later in the same hearing he remarked: "I’m not saying if improper surveillance occurred." (Source) Furthermore, Barr asserted the DoJ is investigating the FBI's investigation of Trump.

Today, Trump's handpicked FBI Director, Chris Wray, declared under oath:

I was very concerned by [Barr's] use of the word spying, which I think is a loaded word," Shaheen said. "When FBI agents conduct investigations against alleged mobsters, suspected terrorists, other criminals, do you believe they're engaging in spying when they're following FBI investigative policies and procedures?"

"That's not the term I would use," Wray said of "spying." "So, I would say that's a no to that question."
-- FBI chief Wray refutes Barr, says no 'spying' on Trump campaign​

So here we are:

• Trump's handpicked AG says he "thinks" there spying occurred, but fails to identify who (what organization) performed it, but he's not investigating the FBI.
• Trump's handpicked FBI Dir., in substance, asserts that no FBI surveillance or investigative policy-compliant activities are spying.

So what must one rationally conclude from the above?

• The AG was taking out of two sides of his mouth.
• Spying isn't what the FBI does.
• So-called "spying" occurred, but neither Barr nor Wray has identified who was spied upon and who did the spying.

From your posted link:

. . .At another point, Wray was asked if he felt the federal government "spied into the 2016 presidential election," and replied that he didn’t "think it would be right or appropriate" to share his thoughts and that he wanted to respect an ongoing investigation by the Department of Justice inspector general into aspects of the Russia inquiry. . .​

Cherry picking one or two statements out of a lengthy testimony will too often result in a distortion of a person's opinion or position on something.

 

[Fenton]

Good question.

Google is your friend.

Specifically....

Surveillance
The concept of surveillance entails keeping continuous and close watch on an individual or group. It's a common dynamic security measure. Also, surveillance largely has legal authority.

Now, modern surveillance systems combine a wide variety of functionalities. These might include video recording, position sensing, imaging, tracking, metal detection and reporting. Businesses, government agencies, and residential homes now make use of these systems.



Spying
Spying, on the other hand, deploys clandestine means to extract secret information. It is often without due authorization.

Spying is a common practice of unscrupulous individuals and institutions. However, secret government agencies often take to spying for national interest reasons. For instance, spies may be deployed to uncover the strategies of terrorist organizations in order to nail them. In addition, exposure of most spying activities often results in negative legal and political consequences.

Spying Vs. Surveillance
Surveillance and spying are often confused because both involve information gathering. Also, like security surveillance, spying could involve a combination of technology and intelligence.

However, the main differences lie within the intents. If the intents aren’t to gain undue advantages, then spying is out of the question. Also, the level of secrecy of both activities matters – this is why highly covert surveillance measures are taken [mistakenly] as spying.

What's The Difference Between Spying And Surveillance?



There's plenty here for everyone yet the discerning mind will recognize that the key factors are two: legality; intent. Keep in mind that the FISA court does not order surveillance, it rather approves or denies surveillance. Further, the FISA court deals in surveillance, not spying. So Barr saying the Trump campaign was spied on is a Barr Faced Falsehood.

James Clapper backtracks: FBI's actions meet 'dictionary definition of spying'
James Clapper backtracks: FBI's actions meet 'dictionary definition of spying'

 

[SLC]

So Wray is the darling of the Left now. :lamo You actually are falling for dictionary games. Wray never said spying wasn't going on, he said he wouldn't use that term. He never denied that people were involved in a surveillance operation that Trump wasn't informed of; as Feinstein was.

He also questioned if there was proper predicate just like Barr did. Comey better PRAY there was proper predicate. Personally I doubt there was. Barr certainly would not have said what he did unless he knew more than he let on. Barr and the IG have been talking. I think Barr is just waiting until the IG report is out. Also Trump is waiting until the IG report is out to declassify several pieces of damning evidence. Should be a fun time in about a month. Heads are going to role.

 

[SLC]

Aren't you just cute. :roll:

The left love to live in their word game fantasy world. :lol:

 

[Tangmo]

James Clapper backtracks: FBI's actions meet 'dictionary definition of spying'
James Clapper backtracks: FBI's actions meet 'dictionary definition of spying'

The Right has been hollering for years Clapper lied to congress yet now you're citing Clapper as the organ of melodious truth.

Make up your minds. Either a guy can lie under oath then another time tell the truth or he can't ever tell the truth. Either a guy who comes clean as it were is a rat or he's a prodigal son come home. Make up your alleged minds over there.

 

[SLC]

The Right has been hollering for years Clapper lied to congress yet now you're citing Clapper as the organ of melodious truth.

Make up your minds. Either a guy can lie under oath then another time tell the truth or he can't ever tell the truth. Either a guy who comes clean as it were is a rat or he's a prodigal son come home. Make up your alleged minds over there.

Its ridiculous to think that Clapper couldn't lie under oath and later tell the truth. Try again.

 

[Trump]

Good question.

Google is your friend.

Specifically....

Surveillance
The concept of surveillance entails keeping continuous and close watch on an individual or group. It's a common dynamic security measure. Also, surveillance largely has legal authority.

Now, modern surveillance systems combine a wide variety of functionalities. These might include video recording, position sensing, imaging, tracking, metal detection and reporting. Businesses, government agencies, and residential homes now make use of these systems.



Spying
Spying, on the other hand, deploys clandestine means to extract secret information. It is often without due authorization.

Spying is a common practice of unscrupulous individuals and institutions. However, secret government agencies often take to spying for national interest reasons. For instance, spies may be deployed to uncover the strategies of terrorist organizations in order to nail them. In addition, exposure of most spying activities often results in negative legal and political consequences.

Spying Vs. Surveillance
Surveillance and spying are often confused because both involve information gathering. Also, like security surveillance, spying could involve a combination of technology and intelligence.

However, the main differences lie within the intents. If the intents aren’t to gain undue advantages, then spying is out of the question. Also, the level of secrecy of both activities matters – this is why highly covert surveillance measures are taken [mistakenly] as spying.

What's The Difference Between Spying And Surveillance?



There's plenty here for everyone yet the discerning mind will recognize that the key factors are two: legality; intent. Keep in mind that the FISA court does not order surveillance, it rather approves or denies surveillance. Further, the FISA court deals in surveillance, not spying. So Barr saying the Trump campaign was spied on is a Barr Faced Falsehood.

why didn't DOJ/FBI tell Trump campaign of their concern that Russia was trying infiltrate them and create chaos in election?

Like Feds did by alerting Feinstein to her Chinese driver/Spy instead of "surveilling" her without her knowledge

 

[American]

The left love to live in their word game fantasy world. :lol:

After Mueller uninteresting report, that's all they have left for 2020.

 

[American]

He also questioned if there was proper predicate just like Barr did. Comey better PRAY there was proper predicate. Personally I doubt there was. Barr certainly would not have said what he did unless he knew more than he let on. Barr and the IG have been talking. I think Barr is just waiting until the IG report is out. Also Trump is waiting until the IG report is out to declassify several pieces of damning evidence. Should be a fun time in about a month. Heads are going to role.

I'll believe it when I see it after all these years of nothing.

 

[Atomic Kid]

He also questioned if there was proper predicate just like Barr did. Comey better PRAY there was proper predicate. Personally I doubt there was. Barr certainly would not have said what he did unless he knew more than he let on. Barr and the IG have been talking. I think Barr is just waiting until the IG report is out. Also Trump is waiting until the IG report is out to declassify several pieces of damning evidence. Should be a fun time in about a month. Heads are going to role.

Heads are going to 'role??? For God's sake, where do you people come from? A federal court determined that there was adequate predicate for the granting of a surveillance warrant, not the FBI. And if you think Mr Barr is some kind of guardian against intrusive surveillance by the government, you better think again. Barr was the godfather of the NSA's bulk data collection program and other such warrantless programs when he headed up Bush's justice department.

William Barr Helped Build America’s Surveillance State | American Civil Liberties Union "William Barr Helped Build America’s Surveillance State
"

It got so bad that the conservative pundit Willaim Safire gave Barr the moniker of "Cover-up General". Which is exactly what he is engaging in doing once again.

Bill Barr: The “Cover-Up General” | Village Voice "Bill Barr: The “Cover-Up General”

“Attorney General William Barr is the Best Reason to Vote for Clinton”

A federal judge accuses the Justice De*partment of trying to “shape” a case in*volving illegal loans to Iraq. The House Judiciary Committee blasts federal attor*neys for compromising their reputation for impartiality in the investigation of a com*puter-software theft. CIA officials charge a deputy attorney general with advocating the suppression of evidence in a sensitive sentencing hearing.

To even the most avid scandalmonger, these may sound like the ravings of a fe*vered Orwellian imagination. But in fact they are all part of a litany of wrongdoing leveled at George Bush’s Justice Depart*ment in the past two months alone. And at the center of the criticism is the chief artic*ulator of Bush’s imperial presidency, the man who wrote the legal rationale for the Gulf War, the Panama invasion, and the officially sanctioned kidnapping of, foreign nationals abroad — Attorney General Wil*liam P. Barr.

So fast has Barr’s star dimmed in recent months that even conservative pundits like The New York Times’s William Safire have taken to calling him the “Cover-Up General.” But so poorly understood are Barr’s ties to the president himself that the fires now threatening the Justice Department have barely singed the Oval Office.

To some Washington insiders, that comes as a surprise, for Barr is surely the closest thing this administration has to a court philosopher. Through the policy deci*sions he has authored, first as assistant at*torney general and finally as the chief him*self, he has fashioned a coherent, radical ideology for a White House that is only ostensibly middle-of-the-road.

While the president, for example, hails a “new world order” based on the rules of law, Barr’s briefs give us broken interna*tional covenants. Though conservative pur*ists pretend that the Justice Department remains reactive, the attorney general, bol*stered by an activist Supreme Court, sets aggressively conservative social agendas on everything from abortion to immigration* — while stalling off inquiries into a myriad of scandals. Indeed, nothing better sums up the political gospel and failings of George Bush’s reign on the eve of this election than the handiwork of his chief lawyer.

 

[Idiometer]

And what was the committed crime that was being investigated?

Again, sweetie, investigations take place to FIND crimes, not to confirm them. Strong suspicion is quite enough to start a legitimate investigation.

 

[Idiometer]

What was the probable cause?

I've given you that information several times on numerous threads. Why do you keep asking the same questions? The replies don't seem matter to you at all. Why is that?

 

[Idiometer]

Why is it that people filled with hate lose the ability to think?

It would be a better world if hate filled idiots in it could just understand how stupid they are and somehow direct their energies in a useful direction.

PLEASE take your own advice! I don't mean to be rude, but you're one of the most fact-resistant users on this forum.

:tocktock2

 

[Idiometer]

Did the FBI lie to the FISA court in the Gotti case too like they did on Carter page? Comey was playing loose with the rules and it’s about to burn him. The FBI was spying on the Trump campaign no matter what semantic game you want to play.

Please provide proof that the FBI lied to obtain the FISA warrant on Carter Page. And before you do, there is an entire section on Carter Page in Volume I of the Mueller report, please read it.

 

[Idiometer]

Ok-- so what was the probable cause to think that Donald Trump was conspiring with Russians to fix the election?

Dozens of contacts between Trump campaign officials and known Russian operatives.

Please RTFR (Read the ****ing Report). It's all in there.

 

[Idiometer]

Not until after the nomination.

So what?