[W:165] Bernie supporters: If Bernie doesn't win the nomination....

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I'll admit, I'm not certain what this means.



Yes. If your response to "Hey, Bernie has this history, and it will be a problem for him in the General" is "Well you're just a Red-Baiting Bircher!", then that is an ad hominem fallacy. It doesn't, actually, address the point, it just seeks to delegimize the person making it.

Nope, because this part of the thread springs from the subject of Cuba, Nicaragua and another couple of banana republics that have been rooted in authoritarianism no matter which side of the spectrum they have ever occupied.
And you appear to be springboarding that to suggestions that Bernie might be interpreted by some as advancing communist style systems as President. I grant that you said that you suggested that even if not your view, that it might be the view of others.
But such a suggestion can only go one direction. Using communists and other heavily authoritarian state socialism to describe all Democrats is the wheelhouse of Birchers, and it is the hallmark of all red-baiting gambits.

"Bernie has praised socialist and communist regimes from time to time ergo Bernie wants a communist healthcare system ergo Bernie is a communist."

And if you're simply role playing, then it is even further from an ad hominem because it's an indication that the role one is playing is that of a red-baiting Bircher type person. All of this springs from the Birchers. You know it and I know it.
Such rhetoric is, in point of fact, Bircher rhetoric. It isn't Betty Crocker.

[emoji38] No. If they think complicated things that they don't deal with in detail are actually simple and if they respond to emotional pulls, that makes them Human.

You are correct - I do indeed think that is probably a majority of the voter base. I've seen enough surveys of voters in both sides to feel fairly comfortable in that assessment.

Of course you have. And naturally you seem to think that appealing to the Right is the solution for success.
I expect nothing less.
And any time one poses questions that sound like: "Would you be in favor of a healthcare system like Cuba's?" I would fully expect to see the same results myself.

Now show me this Cuban style system that Bernie wants.

 

[cpwill]

Nope, because this part of the thread springs from the subject of Cuba, Nicaragua and another couple of banana republics that have been rooted in authoritarianism no matter which side of the spectrum they have ever occupied.

The ole Iron Law of Oligarchy is a tough one.

But this discussion isn't really about that. It's about the facts that Bernie has defended, praised, or been a cheerleader for those authoritarian regimes because they were leftist, and this will be a vulnerability for him in the general.


If Bernie & Co's response to

[Clip of Bernie praising Castro]
[Clip of a Cuban Woman tearfully describing what happened to her family]
[Clip of Bernie declaring that criticism is all right wing propaganda, and that Cuba has good healthcare]
[Back to the woman]
[Voice over of Bernie saying "and we're gonna have good health care]

Is to attack the messenger:

And you appear to be springboarding that to suggestions that Bernie might be interpreted by some as advancing communist style systems as President. I grant that you said that you suggested that even if not your view, that it might be the view of others.
But such a suggestion can only go one direction. Using communists and other heavily authoritarian state socialism to describe all Democrats is the wheelhouse of Birchers, and it is the hallmark of all red-baiting gambits.

...well, that's not exactly gonna be an effective response, any more than trying to turn it into a debate on the finer distinctions within socialism:

"Bernie has praised socialist and communist regimes from time to time ergo Bernie wants a communist healthcare system ergo Bernie is a communist."

:shrug:

And if you're simply role playing, then it is even further from an ad hominem because it's an indication that the role one is playing is that of a red-baiting Bircher type person. All of this springs from the Birchers. You know it and I know it.

I've dealt with Birchers. And, as I keep telling you (and as you keep ignoring) the difference between the Bircher/Red-Baiting/McCarthy attack you are trying and what we are looking at here is that Bernie is not only on record doing what he being accused of; he defends the actions.

Such rhetoric is, in point of fact, Bircher rhetoric. It isn't Betty Crocker.

No. Birchers were conspiracist nutjobs who saw secret socialists everywhere in government. Bernie proudly proclaims himself a socialist, and is on record for decades.

Of course you have.

And naturally you seem to think that appealing to the Right is the solution for success.

No. I think turning an opponents strengths into weaknesses and then maximizing and exploiting those critical vulnerabilities in a targeted fashion is the best means of finding success.

Bernie has some real vulnerabilities here. But, the first step to shoring up a vulnerability is admitting that you have one. That Bernie and his defenders can't do that doesn't augur well for their ability to effectively address this charge in the general (think, for example, about how ridiculous Trump and his supporters looked when they tried to insist that Trump's call to Ukraine was "perfect", and that only deranged trump-haters could see anything else. Trump and his base was unable to admit to themselves that they had a vulnerability, and it probably got him impeached).

I expect nothing less.
And any time one poses questions that sound like: "Would you be in favor of a healthcare system like Cuba's?" I would fully expect to see the same results myself.

Well, that is an implied question that the Trump campaign will be able to ask using Bernie's own words, so, he should probably have a better response than "all those recordings of me are just right wing propaganda" and accusing the victims of dictators of being part of a group of rightist conspiracy theorists that was last prominent in the 1950s and 60s.

 

[Surrealistik]

Anyone who legitimately believes that going after Sanders for selective praise of specific elements of socialist countries he said in the vicinity of 40-50 years ago is an effective line of attack is more than welcome to their blunder. Red scare Neo-McCarthyism predicated on ancient clips is more likely than not to fall completely flat, especially among an increasingly propaganda conscious public that has, largely thanks to Sanders' efforts, come to associate socialism with popular public services, and regard the usual right wing framing as the insipid and disingenuous politically motivated tripe it is. I think such is likely convince the already faithful, but will achieve little beyond choir preaching.

 

[zimmer]

Editors corrections in red;

Enjoy three generations of Originalists and Constitutionalists dominating the courts.

Thanks Obama... if you hadn’t ****ed up so badly, we wouldn’t be here.

 

[rickc]

If you can't vote for bernie then vote against Trump!

Third party is just like voting for Trump!

 

[cpwill]

Anyone who legitimately believes that going after Sanders for selective praise of specific elements of socialist countries he said in the vicinity of 40-50 years ago

2003 was 40 years ago? 2016 was 40 years ago?

Man. I've aged pretty well. Time really flies.




Maybe, if you are going to try to say Bernie doesn't have a vulnerability here, you should red-team yourself, and figure out exactly what he's said and done in this area that the GOP will be able to use.

 

[cpwill]

If you can't vote for bernie then vote against Trump!

Third party is just like voting for Trump!

That's funny - the Republicans all tell me that voting third party is voting for the Democrat.



Huh, well, if it's a vote both for Trump and his opponent to vote third party, then, I guess those cancel each other out? :shrug:

 

[Surrealistik]

2003 was 40 years ago? 2016 was 40 years ago?

Man. I've aged pretty well. Time really flies.

Maybe, if you are going to try to say Bernie doesn't have a vulnerability here, you should red-team yourself, and figure out exactly what he's said and done in this area that the GOP will be able to use.

The bulk of stuff that I would consider anything close to truly suspect or damaging was yes, said in/around that vicinity.

 

[cpwill]

The bulk of stuff that I would consider anything close to truly suspect or damaging was yes, said in/around that vicinity.

Hugo Chavez wasn't in charge of Venezuela 50 years ago. When someone has a five and a half decade long history of doing the same thing repeatedly, it's because that's what they do.

 

[Surrealistik]

Hugo Chavez wasn't in charge of Venezuela 50 years ago. When someone has a five and a half decade long history of doing the same thing repeatedly, it's because that's what they do.

RE: Hugo: The Falsity of the Sanders Venezuela Meme - Quillette

 

[presluc]

The point that he's trying to make is that Sanders' praise for Communists might not bother you, but it will bother a lot of voters in crucial swing states. You think Sanders has any chance whatsoever to win back the WWC with his pro-Communist rhetoric?

Well Reagan and Bush recovered from the iran contra, GWB recovered from a pre-emptive strike against Iraq for WMDS none of which was found.
Bush also recovered from giving Pakistan money in the search for Osama Bin Laden and where was Bin Laden hiding??

Like I said if you go down this judge candidates by past mistakes we gonna be here awhile bothe parties and who in either party supported these ideas?
Who supported Carter's Idea to wait while hostages were being held?

Who supported to give money to Pakistan in the search for Bin Laden.
Who supported the pre-emptive strike against Iraq based on hearsay and T.V. ads , afterwards the president quote on the pre-emptive strike of Iraq "BAD INTELLIGENCE"???

Who supported Obama's extending the tax cuts, stimulus package, Obamacare??:
Who supported President Bush's sword dance with a sheik??