[W:1422] Federal Deficit Soars

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Did they change the metric for this particular measure? Seems odd. Why would they measure one collection of data in nominal dollars and the other in constant dollars?

Regardless of that, average monthly income to the Feds from All Sources rose through April 2018 with April 2018 being the highest month in the year and a half span. April's always a pretty good month.

I couldn't find a more recent government-issued set of data.

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsreports/rpt/mthTreasStmt/mts0418.pdf

Yes, April is a big month, and it's because taxes are due for the PRIOR YEAR'S RETURN on April 15, every year!

 

[code1211]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

The data you're referencing show that tax receipts have been lower every single month, February through June, in 2018 relative to receipts in the corresponding month in 2017. That is to say, the entire time the new tax cuts have been in effect and implemented (January receipts would undoubtedly also have been lower but the new withholding guidance didn't become effective until February).

The only exception is receipts in April, but the annual April bump is always driven by liabilities incurred during the prior calendar year, i.e., under the old tax code.

Since we're looking at partial year data that includes the growth in receipts October-January (and the bump in April receipts) under the old tax code, so far the drop in tax revenue seen in February, March, May, and June of this year under the new one has been slightly more than offset. But that's a far cry from pretending the tax cuts haven't been reducing revenue.

Monthly Treasury Statement Receipts ($ Millions)
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 425"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

FY2017​

[/TD]
[TD]

FY2018​

[/TD]
[TD]

Δ​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Oct[/TD]
[TD]$221.7[/TD]
[TD]$235.3[/TD]
[TD]$13.6 (6%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nov[/TD]
[TD]$199.9[/TD]
[TD]$208.3[/TD]
[TD]$8.5 (4%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dec[/TD]
[TD]$319.2[/TD]
[TD]$325.8[/TD]
[TD]$6.5 (2%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jan[/TD]
[TD]$344.1[/TD]
[TD]$361.0[/TD]
[TD]$17.0 (5%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Feb[/TD]
[TD]$171.7[/TD]
[TD]$155.6[/TD]
[TD]-$16.1 (-9%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mar[/TD]
[TD]$216.6[/TD]
[TD]$210.8[/TD]
[TD]-$5.8 (-3%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Apr[/TD]
[TD]$455.6[/TD]
[TD]$510.4[/TD]
[TD]$54.8 (12%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]May[/TD]
[TD]$240.4[/TD]
[TD]$217.1[/TD]
[TD]-$23.2 (-10%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]June[/TD]
[TD]$338.7[/TD]
[TD]$316.3[/TD]
[TD]-$22.4 (-7%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Not hard to spot in the data the tax cuts going into effect. Because they reduce revenue.

And yet the average monthly revenues increased comparing 2018 to 2017 by about 10 Billion per month.

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsreports/rpt/mthTreasStmt/mts0418.pdf

That said, though, :

[h=1]“There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.”[/h]
― Benjamin Disraeli
tags: attributed-no-source, lies, lying, misattributed-mark-twain, statistics, truth

 

[code1211]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

OK, great, your view is that the way to GROW GOVERNMENT, spend MORE MONEY, fund MORE PROGRAMS, is to cut tax rates. Got it. Yes, Virginia, there is a Tax Santa Clause!

FWIW, what you posted doesn't disprove my point. See post #1121.

Seriously the idea that tax rate cuts INCREASE revenue and that therefore tax rate increases must REDUCE revenue is absurd. I can't believe an entire political movement buys into voodoo when it comes to tax policy.

Where did you get the idea that I want to increase Federal spending and grow government and fund more programs?

The idea that reduced tax rates increase total tax revenue is being proven right now in the real world with real facts and real numbers.

That you reject reality in favor of dogma proves only that you are a democrat or liberal and is connected to nothing related to tax revenue growth or erosion.

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsreports/rpt/mthTreasStmt/mts0418.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

 

[Greenbeard]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

And yet the average monthly revenues increased comparing 2018 to 2017 by about 10 Billion per month.

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsreports/rpt/mthTreasStmt/mts0418.pdf

Is this meant to try and refute something? I already pointed out that Oct-Jan and Apr saw increases thanks to the old tax code, which has mostly offset the revenue losses we've been seeing since the tax cuts were implemented in February. That masking effect dissipates with each passing month, since revenue is down now that the tax cuts are in effect. FY18 will clearly see less revenue flowing in than FY17 did when all is said and done.

Again, you can literally see the revenue loss from the tax cuts in the data. I even marked it in red for you.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Where did you get the idea that I want to increase Federal spending and grow government and fund more programs?

Your position is that tax rate cuts grow revenue, which means as we cut tax rates we get more taxes, more spending, bigger government. Conversely, if we want to shrink government revenue, and therefore cut spending, and have a smaller government that spends less, RAISE tax rates.

If you don't like the implications of your position, change your position. The problem is it's absurd and putting the implications of the absurdity on the page reveal it.

The idea that reduced tax rates increase total tax revenue is being proven right now in the real world with real facts and real numbers.

That you reject reality in favor of dogma proves only that you are a democrat or liberal and is connected to nothing related to tax revenue growth or erosion.

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsreports/rpt/mthTreasStmt/mts0418.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

LOL.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

And yet the average monthly revenues increased comparing 2018 to 2017 by about 10 Billion per month.

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsreports/rpt/mthTreasStmt/mts0418.pdf

LOL, so you are going to lump in revenues collected during the previous calendar year under the old law, and April collections which are mostly the final taxes owed for 2017 returns under the old law, to show that the tax cuts effective for the 2018 calendar year increase revenue.

Interesting analysis. Don't see a problem there...... :roll:

 

[rickc]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Got it, the doubling of GDP, 17 million jobs created, a peace dividend, and 68% increase in FIT revenue didn't happen. Please interpret those numbers??

Not going to happen as you radical leftists always ignore anything that refutes your opinions. Obviously Return on Investment doesn't resonate with you. Post the chart for Obama?

yep a corresponding 112% increase in spending had nothing to do with the growth right?

and that spending resulted in a tripling of the federal debt. 2 trillion dollars in 1980 is what trickle down cost us.

 

[theliq]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Got, actual data has no place in this forum as you and the rest of the radicals who hate capitalism have proven. Refute the data posted and post your own to support your claims as I have done over and over again only to be ignored and called various names. I am a conservative and most in this forum are indeed radical leftists. The results speak for themselves and are verifiable

Actually no one has said they Hate Capitalism,except for the Hate Capitalists who live on Greed at the expense of others...Now Do You Get It

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Actually no one has said they Hate Capitalism,except for the Hate Capitalists who live on Greed at the expense of others...Now Do You Get It

Unlike you I've never cared what somebody else earned, paid in taxes, or has. No rich person ever took advantage of me but I've learned to try to celebrate success and not be as negative and miserable as far too many people are blaming everyone else for their own failures

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[theliq]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Unlike you I've never cared what somebody else earned, paid in taxes, or has. No rich person ever took advantage of me but I've learned to try to celebrate success and not be as negative and miserable as far too many people are blaming everyone else for their own failures

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Well I own a company employing over 300 team members,I have dealt with Capitalists most of my adult life,some are great and some ABSOLUTE hsitS...your concept of folk blaming or being against rich people only shows how Ignorant you are...The average person doesn't care,their priority is looking after their family and having employment...How can losing your Job or less hours because of an Economic Downturn be a Persons FAULT or a FAILURE?????????????


Mind you when they see excesses of the likes of Trump who paid US $150,000 per trick...or go Bankrupt owing $Millions to hard working Americans,then start up again and do it again and again …..they do wonder about things


I have an adage "Anyone who accumulates Enormous Wealth,usually a crime has been committed"


As a self made person and a Liberal minded soul, I have a sentence using only two letter words..."IF IT IS TO BE,IT IS UP TO ME" to motivate me through life

You are not a Capitalist,just a two bit Dread Conservative...YAWN …….Now Do You Get It?DUH...steve

 

[DH Kirkwood]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Unlike you I've never cared what somebody else earned, paid in taxes, or has. No rich person ever took advantage of me but I've learned to try to celebrate success and not be as negative and miserable as far too many people are blaming everyone else for their own failures

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Im all for people being able to become rich and enjoy the fruits of entreprenuership, but when it comes to a point where the business owner is buying multiple private jets, buying elections, and the workers---workers that said business owner owes his success to, are working full time and don't make enough money to support themselves, let alone a family, then that's not a success that should be celebrated. That's exploitation.

We could blame low-wage employees for their own lack of success and their inability to obtain a degree and become a lawyer or break into some other lucrative profession, but we're still left with a reality that doesn't need hundreds of millions of lawyers ( I can tell you that there are 320 milliion people in this country, but I couldn't tell you what portion of 'em are working adults.) If everyone went to college, did well in school and then sought after white-collar jobs, those professsions would become insanely competititve. If everyone was actually able to obtain these jobs, then we wouldn't have any clerks, fast-food workers, factory workers, and so forth.

Theres's also the issue of what the concentration of wealth does to a surrounding economy. We could print all the money we want, but actual wealth is finite. The cost of liiving and inflation will rise in correlation to the total purchasing power of the entire populace (which is why you tend to see a higher cost-of-living in cities, as opposed to rural areas.) I have a harder time applauding obsene levels of wealth when it means that everyone else is that much more impoverished.

For decades, productivity and profits have been going up while wages are stagnating. They haven't risen in accordance to productivity, nor inflation. Pre-80's, most folks could afford a modest home. but the shift in American economic policy has changed all of that.

 

[rickc]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Im all for people being able to become rich and enjoy the fruits of entreprenuership, but when it comes to a point where the business owner is buying multiple private jets, buying elections, and the workers---workers that said business owner owes his success to, are working full time and don't make enough money to support themselves, let alone a family, then that's not a success that should be celebrated. That's exploitation.

We could blame low-wage employees for their own lack of success and their inability to obtain a degree and become a lawyer or break into some other lucrative profession, but we're still left with a reality that doesn't need hundreds of millions of lawyers ( I can tell you that there are 320 milliion people in this country, but I couldn't tell you what portion of 'em are working adults.) If everyone went to college, did well in school and then sought after white-collar jobs, those professsions would become insanely competititve. If everyone was actually able to obtain these jobs, then we wouldn't have any clerks, fast-food workers, factory workers, and so forth.

Theres's also the issue of what the concentration of wealth does to a surrounding economy. We could print all the money we want, but actual wealth is finite. The cost of liiving and inflation will rise in correlation to the total purchasing power of the entire populace (which is why you tend to see a higher cost-of-living in cities, as opposed to rural areas.) I have a harder time applauding obsene levels of wealth when it means that everyone else is that much more impoverished.

For decades, productivity and profits have been going up while wages are stagnating. They haven't risen in accordance to productivity, nor inflation. Pre-80's, most folks could afford a modest home. but the shift in American economic policy has changed all of that.

+1

this guy gets it

 

[code1211]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Is this meant to try and refute something? I already pointed out that Oct-Jan and Apr saw increases thanks to the old tax code, which has mostly offset the revenue losses we've been seeing since the tax cuts were implemented in February. That masking effect dissipates with each passing month, since revenue is down now that the tax cuts are in effect. FY18 will clearly see less revenue flowing in than FY17 did when all is said and done.

Again, you can literally see the revenue loss from the tax cuts in the data. I even marked it in red for you.

I suppose we'll find out when the whole year is in the books.

 

[code1211]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Your position is that tax rate cuts grow revenue, which means as we cut tax rates we get more taxes, more spending, bigger government. Conversely, if we want to shrink government revenue, and therefore cut spending, and have a smaller government that spends less, RAISE tax rates.

If you don't like the implications of your position, change your position. The problem is it's absurd and putting the implications of the absurdity on the page reveal it.



LOL.

I still don't understand where you got the idea that I want to grow government or increase the size of government. Growing revenue implies nothing beyond growing revenue. Everything else is conjured by you.

Your LOL-ing seems to be shrinking your thinking.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Tax rate cuts do not cut revenue.

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/articl...ndividual-income-taxes-through-july-still-run

<snip>
(CNSNews.com) - The federal government collected a record $1,415,150,000,000 in individual income taxes through the first ten months of fiscal 2018 (October 2017 through July 2018), according to the Monthly Treasury Statement.
<snip>

Tax rate cuts do cut revenue - how else can Trump (or you) say that working folks now have more of their money to spend?

The myth that economic growth will raise federal revenue and thus reduce the federal deficit is pure BS. What is the projected federal deficit for FY 2018 - is it more or less than that of FY 2017?

https://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_deficit

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Well I own a company employing over 300 team members,I have dealt with Capitalists most of my adult life,some are great and some ABSOLUTE hsitS...your concept of folk blaming or being against rich people only shows how Ignorant you are...The average person doesn't care,their priority is looking after their family and having employment...How can losing your Job or less hours because of an Economic Downturn be a Persons FAULT or a FAILURE?????????????


Mind you when they see excesses of the likes of Trump who paid US $150,000 per trick...or go Bankrupt owing $Millions to hard working Americans,then start up again and do it again and again …..they do wonder about things


I have an adage "Anyone who accumulates Enormous Wealth,usually a crime has been committed"


As a self made person and a Liberal minded soul, I have a sentence using only two letter words..."IF IT IS TO BE,IT IS UP TO ME" to motivate me through life

You are not a Capitalist,just a two bit Dread Conservative...YAWN …….Now Do You Get It?DUH...steve

Thank you for the tirade, what Trump spends of his own money is none of your or my business and if you don't like what corporate CEO's are being paid don't support those companies. The power of the purse works wonders. Your liberal mindset forces you to think with your heart and not your brain

It is capitalism that made this the greatest country on the face of the earth and it is liberalism that is trying to destroy it. Being a self made person and then a liberal? Makes no sense. If you truly were self made you did so on capitalism not with entitlement programs and certainly not with class warfare and envy.

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

DH Kirkwood;1068953496]Im all for people being able to become rich and enjoy the fruits of entreprenuership, but when it comes to a point where the business owner is buying multiple private jets, buying elections, and the workers---workers that said business owner owes his success to, are working full time and don't make enough money to support themselves, let alone a family, then that's not a success that should be celebrated. That's exploitation.

No, your comments are idiotic, someone has to make those private jets and someone works for those evil rich people. what someone else makes, pays in taxes hurts you how?

We could blame low-wage employees for their own lack of success and their inability to obtain a degree and become a lawyer or break into some other lucrative profession, but we're still left with a reality that doesn't need hundreds of millions of lawyers ( I can tell you that there are 320 milliion people in this country, but I couldn't tell you what portion of 'em are working adults.) If everyone went to college, did well in school and then sought after white-collar jobs, those professsions would become insanely competititve. If everyone was actually able to obtain these jobs, then we wouldn't have any clerks, fast-food workers, factory workers, and so forth.

Bls.gov, will tell you how many are working adults over the age of 16 but no one forces an individual to take a job that they are now whining about. the real problem is the left whines about jobs that they aren't working in and act like they truly care. All they care about it regaining and having power. Always blaming someone else for poor personal choices is right out of the leftwing playbook and tries to make people believe they truly care, they don't or they would force people to be accountable for their own errors and mistakes

Theres's also the issue of what the concentration of wealth does to a surrounding economy. We could print all the money we want, but actual wealth is finite. The cost of liiving and inflation will rise in correlation to the total purchasing power of the entire populace (which is why you tend to see a higher cost-of-living in cities, as opposed to rural areas.) I have a harder time applauding obsene levels of wealth when it means that everyone else is that much more impoverished.

First of I never get an answer to the question, how does some rich person keeping more of what they earn hurt you, your family, or the country? Actual wealth isn't finite unless liberals have their way and don't grow the economy. as long as the economy grows there are opportunities for anyone except those with the entitlement mentality

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Tax rate cuts do cut revenue - how else can Trump (or you) say that working folks now have more of their money to spend?

The myth that economic growth will raise federal revenue and thus reduce the federal deficit is pure BS. What is the projected federal deficit for FY 2018 - is it more or less than that of FY 2017?

https://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_deficit

the problem is Treasury doesn't support that statement that FIT cuts actually cut FIT Revenue.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I still don't understand where you got the idea that I want to grow government or increase the size of government. Growing revenue implies nothing beyond growing revenue. Everything else is conjured by you.

Your LOL-ing seems to be shrinking your thinking.

If federal revenue was growing then one would expect that the federal deficit would be falling under Trump - isn't that your contention?

Since the federal deficit is actually growing (2017 vs. 2018) under Trump then which of the following happened?

A) federal revenue fell under Trump.

B) federal spending grew under Trump.

C) federal revenue grew but federal spending grew even more under Trump.

https://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_deficit

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

the problem is Treasury doesn't support that statement that FIT cuts actually cut FIT Revenue.

Hmm... you are asserting that tax rate cuts actually make tax revenue increase? How does that explain the increase in the federal deficit?

https://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_deficit

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Hmm... you are asserting that tax rate cuts actually make tax revenue increase? How does that explain the increase in the federal deficit?

https://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_deficit

What tax rate cuts do is stimulate consumer spending and thus economic activity. Revenue always reduces deficits not increases the deficit, that is the job of spending

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

If federal revenue was growing then one would expect that the federal deficit would be falling under Trump - isn't that your contention?

Since the federal deficit is actually growing (2017 vs. 2018) under Trump then which of the following happened?

A) federal revenue fell under Trump.

B) federal spending grew under Trump.

C) federal revenue grew but federal spending grew even more under Trump.

https://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_deficit

The basic problem here is that debt service is part of the deficit each and every year and as interest rates rise so does the debt service. In fiscal year 2018 that amounts to approximately 500 billion of the 2018 deficit, all on past debt, not Trump's debt

 

[code1211]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Tax rate cuts do cut revenue - how else can Trump (or you) say that working folks now have more of their money to spend?

The myth that economic growth will raise federal revenue and thus reduce the federal deficit is pure BS. What is the projected federal deficit for FY 2018 - is it more or less than that of FY 2017?

https://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_deficit

A deficit is the result of receipts and outlays. measuring the growth of revenue by the size of the deficit ignores half of the equation.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/federal-receipt-and-outlay-summary

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

What tax rate cuts do is stimulate consumer spending and thus economic activity. Revenue always reduces deficits not increases the deficit, that is the job of spending

OK, Trump is growing (the expense of) the federal government faster than (increased?) revenue can offset that increased spending. The bottom line is that the federal deficit and national debt are increasing under Trump.

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

OK, Trump is growing (the expense of) the federal government faster than (increased?) revenue can offset that increased spending. The bottom line is that the federal deficit and national debt are increasing under Trump.

So 500 billion is the cost of interest expense in the current budget. Did Trump have anything to do with that? Increased spending on exactly what? Treasury.org will provide you with the line items in the budget. Simply look at those line items and tell us which ones increased, executive branch?? NO and that is what Trump controls.