[W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

[it's just me]

Life or death...rare

A woman feels at risk for her health and welfare because of poor access to health care and housing insecure because of under employment with poor hourly wages most likely.

My mother felt just that way. In the past I haven't had a whole lot of good things to say about my mom, she made some really bad decisions later in life. But she dug in and did her best to see to it that I was going to make it, so did the hospital staff. And with that in mind, my mom doesn't look so bad right now. Thank you for the revelation.

 

[maquiscat]

So what's so special about being outside another person's body?

Bodily autonomy of that person does not apply then. Are you not paying attention?

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[it's just me]

if you can't debate honestly, I won't respond to you.

I said abortions at 24 weeks.

Which definition of human being would you like me to adhere to, there are several, and they all differ.

It was I who was not responding to you.

 

[maquiscat]

Actually in 2004 25 percent of women sought an abortion for medical reasons.

From Table 2 2004
Page 113 of the following:
The woman answered she sought an abortion in 2004 because:

Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus ... 13 percent of time

Physical problem with my health ... 12 percent of the time.

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/journals/3711005.pdf

Just so you know, with that type of questioning, the number could be lower than 25%. A single respondent could select both of those given options if they both applied.

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[Wan]

Bodily autonomy of that person does not apply then. Are you not paying attention?

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Bodily autonomy is already not the be-all and end-all. There are laws that compel parents to care for their babies.

In fact, we've been over this before. Sounds like you are the one not paying attention.

 

[maquiscat]

Bodily autonomy is already not the be-all and end-all. There are laws that compel parents to care for their babies.

In fact, we've been over this before. Sounds like you are the one not paying attention.

Actually nothing compels actually caring for the offspring. You might have to contribute financially, but you are physically required to care for them. That aside, that is no more a violation of bodily autonomy than having to pay taxes.

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[Wan]

Actually nothing compels actually caring for the offspring. You might have to contribute financially, but you are physically required to care for them. That aside, that is no more a violation of bodily autonomy than having to pay taxes.

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It is. The government is telling you how to act and what to do with your body.

 

[maquiscat]

It is. The government is telling you how to act and what to do with your body.

Yeah, figured you'd try that, but no. The government doesn't care how you go about it as long as it's done. Not a violation of bodily autonomy.

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[Wan]

Yeah, figured you'd try that, but no. The government doesn't care how you go about it as long as it's done. Not a violation of bodily autonomy.

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The government is compelling one to do certain things. Yes, bodily autonomy has been breached.

 

[marke]

Who said the fetus is not human? So what?

Not human? Cut it up and dispose of it, no matter how many months it spent in the womb or days outside the womb. It is the democrat way.

 

[it's just me]

You just pretty much proved him right on the 24 weeks thing. And didnt I post the definition for human being for you? (oh sorry, Minnie did)

If you want a "solid, concrete" word to use, then you'd use 'human,' which is clearly defined, objectively by science.

When people want to muddy the waters for the convenience of their agenda, they use something more ambiguous, with multiple semantic meanings, in order to avoid having their arguments proven wrong.

Yes, that's what you always do, muddy the waters with your own terminology. In the medical dictionary ""human" and "human being" are synonymous, look it up yourself, I'm not going to fart around trying to cut and paste text on a phone to make an argument that is just common sense anyway.

As far as the 24 weeks thing goes, you should pay attention to the state abortion laws. In some states you can get an abortion legally at 24 weeks if you have it done in a hospital. I know this because I pay attention to the news, not pro abortion propaganda.

 

[minnie616]

Yes, that's what you always do, muddy the waters with your own terminology. In the medical dictionary ""human" and "human being" are synonymous, look it up yourself, I'm not going to fart around trying to cut and paste text on a phone to make an argument that is just common sense anyway.

As far as the 24 weeks thing goes, you should pay attention to the state abortion laws. In some states you can get an abortion legally at 24 weeks if you have it done in a hospital. I know this because I pay attention to the news, not pro abortion propaganda.

There are several states with term limits for an abortion yet no elective abortions past 24 weeks are performed.

There are 4 clinic doctors and 3 clinics in the US that perform abortions in extremely rare cases where the fetus is not viable or continueing a pregnancy will cause irreparable damage to one of the woman’s major bodily functions.

From Romper :

In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy, according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)

...

Dr. Gunter supplied a few facts of her own. Only 1.3 percent of abortions happen at, or after, 21 weeks, she said, and 80 percent of those are the results of catastrophic defects with the fetus. Dr. Gunter continued with a powerful explanation of why women generally seek out procedures like a late-term abortion.

Read more:

Which States Offer Late-Term Abortions? They Are Very Difficult To Access

And from the following article:

There is a false belief that induction of labor early for a lethal anomaly is not an abortion. It is.

The end.

If you have not done abortions at or after 24 weeks or referred a woman for an abortion at or after 24 weeks you are not an expert on the subject.

...

Why can’t they just have a c-section?

First of all, a c-section for an early delivery of a non-viable fetus is still an abortion.
#TheMoreYouKnow.

That people don’t grasp this is shocking. And why these discussions are best left to experts who don’t impose their own religion on patients.

 

[it's just me]

There are several states with term limits for an abortion yet no elective abortions past 24 weeks are performed.

There are 4 clinic doctors and 3 clinics in the US that perform abortions in extremely rare cases where the fetus is not viable or continueing a pregnancy will cause irreparable damage to one of the woman’s major bodily functions.

From Romper :

24 weeks, which is the magic number I brought up because if I had been born today it could have gone either way: instead of trying to save me they might have let me die instead, which in turn makes my dear departed mother, with all of her problems, look like a saint compared to today's pro abortion crowd.

But again, thanks for the perspective on Mother's day of all days.

 

[minnie616]

There are several states with term limits for an abortion yet no elective abortions occur after 24 weeks.

And from the following article:

There is a false belief that induction of labor early for a lethal anomaly is not an abortion. It is.

The end.

If you have not done abortions at or after 24 weeks or referred a woman for an abortion at or after 24 weeks you are not an expert on the subject.

...

Why can’t they just have a c-section?

First of all, a c-section for an early delivery of a non-viable fetus is still an abortion.
#TheMoreYouKnow.

That people don’t grasp this is shocking. And why these discussions are best left to experts who don’t impose their own religion on patients.

Sorry, I was timed out before I could add the link.

Abortions at or after 24 weeks are sometimes needed medically. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. | Dr. Jen Gunter

 

[minnie616]

24 weeks, which is the magic number I brought up because if I had been born today it could have gone either way: instead of trying to save me they might have let me die instead, which in turn makes my dear departed mother, with all of her problems, look like a saint compared to today's pro abortion crowd.

But again, thanks for the perspective on Mother's day of all days.

You were viable when you were born.

If you were non viable you would not have lived.

Doctors always try to save viable babies.


The idea that doctors or parents would/ could just let a viable baby die is all pro-life propaganda.

Apparently, you do understand what non viable means. It means never being able to survive outside the womb more than a few minutes or hours no matter how many weeks along the pregnancy was at delivery.

I miscarried a very malformed fetus at 20 weeks gestation.

My doctor told me no matter how long I carried it it never would have been viable. ( it could never have survived birth.)
Pathology told him it was so malformed they could not even tell if it would have been a boy or a girl.

The best medical advances are always offered any baby born after 23 weeks gestation.

24 weeks gestation is the limit of viability.

More than 50 percent of babies born at 24 weeks gestation will survive.

I’m very sorry your dear departed mom has passed.
My mother passed over 20 years ago and I still miss her too.

 

[it's just me]

You were viable when you were born.

If you were non viable you would not have lived.

Doctors always try to save viable babies.


The idea that doctors or parents would/ could just let a viable baby die is all pro-life propaganda.

Apparently, you do understand what non viable means. It means never being able to survive outside the womb more than a few minutes or hours no matter how many weeks along the pregnancy was at delivery.

I miscarried a very malformed fetus at 20 weeks gestation.

My doctor told me no matter how long I carried it it never would have been viable. ( it could never have survived birth.)
Pathology told him it was so malformed they could not even tell if it would have been a boy or a girl.

The best medical advances are always offered any baby born after 23 weeks gestation.

24 weeks gestation is the limit of viability.

More than 50 percent of babies born at 24 weeks gestation will survive.

I’m very sorry your dear departed mom has passed.
My mother passed over 20 years ago and I still miss her too.

My chances of survival were slim to none, this was in the 1950's, I was hardly "viable". They worked like hell to save you until there was no doubt that you were dead. Period. That was just the medical ethics of the day.

 

[minnie616]

My chances of survival were slim to none, this was in the 1950's, I was hardly "viable". They worked like hell to save you until there was no doubt that you were dead. Period. That was just the medical ethics of the day.

Doctors still work like hell save premature babies.

Of the preemies admitted to hospitals in 2013, the survival rate to discharge was 94 percent for babies born at 28 completed weeks of gestation, 85 percent at 26 weeks, 68 percent at 24 weeks and 51 percent at 23 weeks

 

[maquiscat]

The government is compelling one to do certain things. Yes, bodily autonomy has been breached.

If you were compelled to earn that money through sex, that would be a breach of bodily autonomy. If you choose to earn it though sex, it is not. At best, paying taxes is a breech of financial autonomy, assuming such a thing exists.

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[it's just me]

Doctors still work like hell save premature babies.

Of the preemies admitted to hospitals in 2013, the survival rate to discharge was 94 percent for babies born at 28 completed weeks of gestation, 85 percent at 26 weeks, 68 percent at 24 weeks and 51 percent at 23 weeks

Virginia Governor Asked About Abortion Until Birth. He Floats Infanticide | The Daily Caller

 

[minnie616]

Virginia Governor Asked About Abortion Until Birth. He Floats Infanticide | The Daily Caller

He was talking catastrophic fetal abnormalities and the choices all parents are offered in those cases.

Extraordinary care or palliative care.

And pallitive care , even hospice palliative care is not giving up on the infant

In fact a key component of palliative care including hospice palliative care is not to hasten the death of the infant.

From the following:

Doesn't hospice mean giving up and losing hope?

No! Hospice and palliative care are about providing a different kind of medical care, with different kinds of hope.

This approach is about providing comfort and dignity both for the person who is terminally ill and for the family and extended circle. Hospice can be a frightening word, but it doesn't mean giving up on your baby.
A core principle of hospice and palliative care is to not hasten death.

(World Health Organization) Palliative care can be provided along with medical intervention to improve the baby's life, sometimes even including surgery, if the intervention would be of benefit and not unnecessarily burdensome to the baby.

Babies with the same condition can vary greatly in their ability to sustain life. A few babies surprise everyone with their strength and are able to "graduate" from end-of-life care and live longer than expected.

Hospice and palliative care follow the baby's lead, honoring the baby's life.

For a baby who is expected to die, parents' original wishes and dreams for their child’s long life are shattered. But their hopes can change direction: for the baby to be treated with dignity, for the baby to be protected until death comes naturally, for the baby's life to be filled with love.

Parents who have chosen perinatal hospice have said that this kind of care helped their hopes be fulfilled.

Read more:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/poll...ill-born-alive-infants-52.html#post1069960153

 

[year2late]

Virginia Governor Asked About Abortion Until Birth. He Floats Infanticide | The Daily Caller

Y'all gotta get your talking points from somewhere else.

No where in that video did he discuss infantacide.

He was speaking to a baby born with catastrophic health issues. He was speaking to comfort care/palliative care/hospice.

Are you against these things?

FAQs | Perinatal hospice and palliative care

 

[Lursa]

Bodily autonomy is already not the be-all and end-all. There are laws that compel parents to care for their babies.

In fact, we've been over this before. Sounds like you are the one not paying attention.

Why do you continue to ignore the fact that you've been informed that Safe Haven laws in all states allow all parents, male or female, to drop off children at hospitals, fire stations, etc. In some states all the way up until a child is 18. And even multiple children.

So you post in bad faith when you repeat that over and over. And it's not even the only option for parents in need.

 

[Lursa]

Yeah, figured you'd try that, but no. The government doesn't care how you go about it as long as it's done. Not a violation of bodily autonomy.

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It's like the people that claim the same thing for paying taxes, comparing it to slavery. :roll:

 

[Lursa]

Yes, that's what you always do, muddy the waters with your own terminology. In the medical dictionary ""human" and "human being" are synonymous, look it up yourself, I'm not going to fart around trying to cut and paste text on a phone to make an argument that is just common sense anyway.

As far as the 24 weeks thing goes, you should pay attention to the state abortion laws. In some states you can get an abortion legally at 24 weeks if you have it done in a hospital. I know this because I pay attention to the news, not pro abortion propaganda.

Except that you still choose to use an ambiguous term instead of an accurate one. Why is that? Not only that...2 words is more to spell out when texting! So I guess you just used that 'burden' as an excuse? :roll: Please skip the BS in your discussions.

And where did write you cant get a abortion at 24 weeks? Please give me a post #. In some states and the entire country of Canada, there is NO time limit on abortions. And still, zero elective abortions take place in those states/Canada that late.

I asked you to post the numbers for elective abortions taking place that late. Please show me.

 

[Lursa]

My chances of survival were slim to none, this was in the 1950's, I was hardly "viable". They worked like hell to save you until there was no doubt that you were dead. Period. That was just the medical ethics of the day.

False...you were viable, obviously.

And aside from early birth...were you diagnosed with any other medical issues? I'm guessing no.