Trump Walks Out of Border Talks, Calls Them ‘Total Waste of Time’

[Anaxagoras]

I see your point let me retort IN REGARDS TO ANY LAW PERIOD. It should ALWAYS BE ZERO TOLERANCE PERIOD. If a Law is broken there should not (Normally) be exceptions or conditions or discretion. WHAT is the point if you have discretion when enforcing the law. (This of course if black and white. Emotionally I can understand "personal" discretion. BUT in fairness too the law there should be NO discretion.)


So YES Obama may not have had a Zero Tolerance policy in place as there should never have been a need. YOU enter our country illegally by virtue of the immigration laws back in the 60's you are prosecuted as a misdemeanor on your first offense and a Felony on your second.

THERE is no discretion written in between. Obama's administration seemed to "Pick and Choose" if and when to apply the law.

Trump's Administration has set a policy to ensure there is NO picking and choosing and enforce the law at all times.


Now you keep saying that More children getting separated. YES because if the laws was enforced fully from 1960's we should have and known the same EXACT outrage. But again because people used discretion and even personal judgement of the law. They would DISREGARD the enforcement and either not separate them or NOT even prosecute them (Catch and Release)

Do you NOT see this as a problem? Do you not agree that if a LAW is put in place period That it should be enforced 100% of the time.

Robbing a bank is a crime. If you are CAUGHT is it Zero tolerance? That you are detained, arrested, jailed and then prosecuted.

How about shoplifting on a FEDERAL establishment like a Military Base. The Soldier or sponsor is held the the UCMJ prosecution 100% of the time.

Laws are there for reason. We have created this incentive to disregard our laws by not enforcing them to the fullest thus creating a Greater Humanitarian "crisis" at the border where it incentives people to take the chance and enter our country illegal with a child in hope to gain leniency.

a Law that is inacted should ALWAYS be Zero tolerance. The by product of breaking our law with a child in tow is "Child Safeguard policy"

Do agree that ANY law that is on the books should be enforced 100% of the time, Be it, Shoplifting, Burglary, Child Endangerment, Murder? Yes or NO?

Ideally all laws should be enforced. But that does not imply zero tolerance. For example, Prosecutors have discretion to make plea deals with alleged criminals to lesser charges, for numerous reasons. Should they not be allowed to do this?

 

[Exactice]

........

Oscar we are reaching the meat and potatoes of the argument, I hope to have a good discussion with you without resorting to name calling.

First of, THERE is ZERO policy SET by TRUMP's administration in regards to HOW CPS & DHS handle the CHILD safeguarding Procedures. THIS IS THE FAILURE of those institution that lack the proper facilities and operations. THIS is what has been in place for PAST administrations. MEANING if They are NOT or have NOT been doing it NOW. What do you THINK DHS and CPS has been doing for the past 4 administrations prior.


There has BE ZERO change in guidence by Obama, Clinton and NOW Trump in Regards to how the handle a child in safeguarded custody. Meaning if they LACK the ability reunite the child now they probably did back then as well LIKELY WHY they chose to ignore the law and let the parent and child stay together. Then take the chance as stuck in the situation we are NOW in.

IT IS SAD and unfortunate YES that a separated child cannot be reunited with their parent and this is WHY I personally want Immigration reform to AVOID this "Crisis" at the border.

1st To mitigate and reduce the AMOUNT of Illegals being caught and processed.
2nd To Address the failures by DHS and CPS that handle the child safeguard cases. THIS Is NOT the Fault of Trump or the CAUSE and affect of his Zero Tolerance policy. This is SOLELY on the ACTIONS of DHS and CPS on their policies. WHICH NEED TO FIXED AND OR ADDRESSED. Trump could in Fact be a champion of This, BUT it seems that his priority is just working on Illegal border crossing. DHS & CPS should be coming up with their OWN policies on how to handle the Family separation. CAN YOU Prove that TRUMP has ALTERED or dictated in any way shape or form the POLICIES of DHS or CPS on child handling? Because he has NOT.


Any policy? Then BLAME the ones responsible for the SAFEGUARD policies and the CHILD INTAKE. TRUMP has NOT Touched those those have been in existence for YEARS PRIOR TRUMP. DID YOU IN FACT read the Memo From Session that I put. IT says NOTHING CPS or DHS handling it is PURELY base on Apprehending officers and their duty to prosecute 100% of the time.

Unnecessary? SURE It could be construed this way, BUT again there is a LEGAL way to enter our COUNTRY Period. Dont LIKE IT Dont break the LAW go to a port of Entry.

So again. You put emotion, conscience over LAW. So when you feel emotional a LAW that WAS agreed on by a Majority Senate, you can disagree on it anytime you feel like it? Dont Blame TRUMP (well you can, I can too.) BUT the real responsibility falls on the LAW makers like the House and Congress that Refuse to ADDRESS Immigration reform that has CAUSED ALL THIS PERIOD.

As for Many Parents? I want to see statistical Facts not emotions.

as an example.

1) HOW many ACTUAL Immigrants per year @ the Border? (Lets say 200,000)
2) How many Actual immigrants with Children ( lets say 50% or 100,000 come with children)
3) How many Claim Asylum ( lets say 80% Claim Asylum so 160,000 claim asylum)
4) How many are approved (30% of all asylum Claims are granted 48,000) (112,000 denied as well as the 40,000 not even asking for asylum)

Meaning out of 200,000 people only 48,000 are of "CREDIBLE Fear and threats that you throw me....) Show me the numbers As my example above 152,000 people are not fleeing violence or harm just poverty. Validate that "Many of these parents are fleeing threats etc" That quantify breaking our laws.

What would I do. Because I cannot offer EVERYONE in this world the SAME exact fair obligation. I would fall back on the only consistent thing. THE LAW.

As per above, What about people in China, Russia, bolivia, North Korea, Thailand. PEOPLE living in poverty and threat. Why cant I save them? Why do they NOT have the EXACT same chance that the nations south of us have and they can disregard our laws.

Now add that to the 350 million US Citizens that like Majority Pay taxes and some that are Homeless or lack better living conditions. ITS easy to cry foul and emotions until you quantify EVERYTHING into context.


Finally Yes guardian is the safe guard. SO How about immigration reform. THERE is NO Catch. You are found illegally at the border children in tow or not, YOU ARE TURNED RIGHT AROUND PERIOD. No AID no nothing... Just turned around and told to go back here you came from. How about that.

Then we will never have to deal with separating the family and they are NOT our responsibility as they chose NOT to use the legal method in the first place.


As you stated "NO coordination" YOU are RIGHT. It is the lack and failures of the CURRENT and PRIOR administrations on handling these intakes THEY NEED to Address and FIX it. BUT AGAIN IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRUMPS ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY PERIOD.

Do not correlate 2 separate issues that are not intended to be connected

 

[Exactice]

Ideally all laws should be enforced. But that does not imply zero tolerance. For example, Prosecutors have discretion to make plea deals with alleged criminals to lesser charges, for numerous reasons. Should they not be allowed to do this?

Plea Deals are after the person is arrested/detained. That is NOT at the time of crime.

A Plea deal is usually set in an adjudicate form Allowing the Detained to plea for their crime. This should not change and YES Even Illegals should have a chance @ a plea deal. BUT it still does NOT change how child separation Safeguard policies work @ the time of Detainment.

A Bank robber has a kid in their back seat. The are caught and arrested, the child is still removed from the parent. The parent then is in jail and given a plea deal the CHILD is STILL separate from the Parent. This changes NOTHING.

The Robber still got a day in court and the Robber still has to answer to their crimes. PERIOD.


Whats your point? IF you illegally enter the country there is ZERO Tolerance for prosecution, BUT they may be able to still plea for something at the time of prosecution. BUT during detainment the CHILD is Separated from the apprehended parent

 

[Somerville]

During a routine stop, LEO’s can ascertain identities of all occupants of the vehicle for possible warrants. He does not have to...but he can. And if you have ever watch LIVE PD you would know that the majority of departments make that a routine part of stops.

If one of the persons in the car has no ID, what then? Detain them under "reasonable suspicion" -- Sounds a bit like a police state to me.

 

[gdgyva]

If one of the persons in the car has no ID, what then? Detain them under "reasonable suspicion" -- Sounds a bit like a police state to me.

They use name, social, DOB, and it comes back with a photo with most people....most have had some type of ID in the past

What happens on occasion is that people lie, and that is against the law....you can’t give false info

And no I don’t consider that a police state....officers are allowed to ascertain who they are actually dealing with though

 

[OscarLevant]

Oscar we are reaching the meat and potatoes of the argument, I hope to have a good discussion with you without resorting to name calling.

First of, THERE is ZERO policy SET by TRUMP's administration in regards to HOW CPS & DHS handle the CHILD safeguarding Procedures. THIS IS THE FAILURE of those institution that lack the proper facilities and operations. THIS is what has been in place for PAST administrations. MEANING if They are NOT or have NOT been doing it NOW. What do you THINK DHS and CPS has been doing for the past 4 administrations prior.


[... see orig.]

Any policy? Then BLAME the ones responsible for the SAFEGUARD policies and the CHILD INTAKE. TRUMP has NOT Touched those those have been in existence for YEARS PRIOR TRUMP. DID YOU IN FACT read the Memo From Session that I put. IT says NOTHING CPS or DHS handling it is PURELY base on Apprehending officers and their duty to prosecute 100% of the time.

Unnecessary? SURE It could be construed this way, BUT again there is a LEGAL way to enter our COUNTRY Period. Dont LIKE IT Dont break the LAW go to a port of Entry.

So again. You put emotion, conscience over LAW. So when you feel emotional a LAW that WAS agreed on by a Majority Senate, you can disagree on it anytime you feel like it? Dont Blame TRUMP (well you can, I can too.) BUT the real responsibility falls on the LAW makers like the House and Congress that Refuse to ADDRESS Immigration reform that has CAUSED ALL THIS PERIOD.

As for Many Parents? I want to see statistical Facts not emotions.

as an example.

1) HOW many ACTUAL Immigrants per year @ the Border? (Lets say 200,000)
2) How many Actual immigrants with Children ( lets say 50% or 100,000 come with children)
3) How many Claim Asylum ( lets say 80% Claim Asylum so 160,000 claim asylum)
4) How many are approved (30% of all asylum Claims are granted 48,000) (112,000 denied as well as the 40,000 not even asking for asylum)

Meaning out of 200,000 people only 48,000 are of "CREDIBLE Fear and threats that you throw me....) Show me the numbers As my example above 152,000 people are not fleeing violence or harm just poverty. Validate that "Many of these parents are fleeing threats etc" That quantify breaking our laws.

What would I do. Because I cannot offer EVERYONE in this world the SAME exact fair obligation. I would fall back on the only consistent thing. THE LAW.

As per above, What about people in China, Russia, bolivia, North Korea, Thailand. PEOPLE living in poverty and threat. Why cant I save them? Why do they NOT have the EXACT same chance that the nations south of us have and they can disregard our laws.

Now add that to the 350 million US Citizens that like Majority Pay taxes and some that are Homeless or lack better living conditions. ITS easy to cry foul and emotions until you quantify EVERYTHING into context.


Finally Yes guardian is the safe guard. SO How about immigration reform. THERE is NO Catch. You are found illegally at the border children in tow or not, YOU ARE TURNED RIGHT AROUND PERIOD. No AID no nothing... Just turned around and told to go back here you came from. How about that.

Then we will never have to deal with separating the family and they are NOT our responsibility as they chose NOT to use the legal method in the first place.


As you stated "NO coordination" YOU are RIGHT. It is the lack and failures of the CURRENT and PRIOR administrations on handling these intakes THEY NEED to Address and FIX it. BUT AGAIN IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRUMPS ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY PERIOD.

Do not correlate 2 separate issues that are not intended to be connected

I dont know about all that. I don't look at children as "intakes".

I"m just going by what is being said, now here is a Trump quote:

“Obama had a separation policy; we all had the same policy. I tried to do it differently, but Obama had a separation policy. But people don’t like to talk about that.” — remarks to reporters Monday.

and this:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-fact-check-obama-didnt-have-a-family-separation-policy

Obama did not have a separation policy. The Trump administration didn’t, explicitly, either, but that was the effect of zero tolerance, which meant that anyone caught crossing the border illegally was to be criminally prosecuted, even if they had few or no previous offenses.

The policy meant adults were taken to court for criminal proceedings and their children were separated. In most cases, if the charge took longer than 72 hours to process, which is the longest time that children can be held by Customs and Border Protection, children were sent into the care of the Health and Human Services Department. Zero tolerance remains in effect, but Trump signed an executive order June 20 that stopped separations.

 

[MTAtech]

Under the rug? You mean like the drives Hillary-Billary demolished?
'Collusion' is dead in the water. That's rather obvious by now.
All this investigation serves now, is the wet dreams on Libbies who live on hate.

If you and/or the FBI wanna investigate every politician alive...go ahead.
But be careful what you ask for...

While on that topic, how is Trump’s promise to “lock her up” going?

 

[Exactice]

I dont know about all that. I don't look at children as "intakes".

I"m just going by what is being said, now here is a Trump quote:

Sorry My apologies as the term may not have been used properly. I TOO do not take children as intake.. It is the term I am using to quantify the action NOT the child.

Trumps Statement was NOT wrong, just expressed incorrectly.

Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama and now Trump all have the "similar Child safeguard policies" Its NO different. THE Questionable difference is HOW the DHS and CPS Chiefs HANDLE the children themselves once they receive "Care custody and control" Was there IN FACT proper actions taken to maintain their continuity. AT this POINT it does NOT seem like it. NO difference From Trump or Obama.

IT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED PERIOD that At the point of a Parent Detainment and a child cannot be released to a safe related guardian. The Child should be properly annotated to the parent as at the time the parent and child can be reunited by law.

With that, (I DONT RECALL any Administration having a "Separation POLICY" ) By terms of policy. I just understood that there is a standing LEO Department policy for "Child Safeguarding" UN Related SPECIFICALLY to Border detention cases as it applicable TO ALL Parents that have committed any crime and are detained.


AGAIN NO bearing on ANY administration in specificity of "Separation Policy' WITH that being said though. I Do agree now its becoming a crisis and a "SEPARATION POLICY" SHOULD be established specifically FOR THIS.

BUT here comes the real kicker.... What about American Citizens that commit a crime and detained and their child is separated from them? Why should an ILLEGAL immigrant not a US citizen be treated different? (Slippery Slope)

SO AGAIN... I say fall back on the law and fall back on simplicity. ANYONE Caught out side of a port of entry is immediately deported and told to go back to where they came from. Their identification is taken to stop repeat offenders BUT we WILL NOT take or HOST any of them OUTSIDE of a LEGAL port of Entry.

We cannot Save everyone.... Its Not possible that is WHY we are a nation of laws.

 

[OscarLevant]

What about American Citizens that commit a crime and detained and their child is separated from them? Why should an ILLEGAL immigrant not a US citizen be treated different? (Slippery Slope)

Well, first we need to keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges, so we need first the answer to this:

What misdemeanors alleged committed before trial and sentencing, other than border crossing, is it US Policy to separate children from parents?


I googled this and could not find an answer, perhaps you have data on this.

 

[Buzz62]

Hillarious...ok.

of course you accept them. they occur every day and you have done nothing to prevent them

Buzzzz...wrong. I abide by the law...of whatever nation I happen to be in at the time.
So unless someone murders one of my family...I won't be killin' anyone soon.
Hell I'm arguing this with you because I do not accept this crap.

they ARE vast ... and i am quite thankful to be able to post that

Interestingly enough Bubba...I long for the days when people could disagree politically, and not be silly about it.
One of the thing that drives me nutz-o about you anti-anything-trumpsters, is that you don't find this whole partisan game unfortunate.
That sort-o concerns me a bit...

and there is an excellent reason for that
see if you can figure it out

Already figured out I'm afraid.

there is no instance of murder in canada, who knew
because if there ever were a murder your statement would then be an abject lie
i suspect most readers will understand why i visualize an ostrich when seeing you insist that there are no illegals in your nation

Oh there is. I never claimed there wasn't. Mexican farmers who make their way through your border, and wind up in Saskatchewan and Alberta as hired-hands on the farms. Lots try to stay, and some manage in placed like Taber Alberta. Those are the one's I know of...oh and the people walking across to Quebec of late.

here is the difference. in your country you have a leader with a sense of morality
i refuse to defend the indefensible actions of my own president ... but there are many who do. it would appear you are among their rank

Pixey-Dust??? :lamo
The poor lad is hopeless. Him and his cute socks.
Pot's now legal...its time for him to get outta the way and let someone who can get more done than being a 'darling lad', do the grown-up jobs.

there is a rule in this forum which prevents me from making a comment about the family of a forum member, so do with your spouse as you please as it is of no bearing within this forum

giggle...

it is the actions of my president i find objectionable. i refuse to align myself with someone who is without character or conscience. many germans were loyal to hitler despite his evil practices; you would be wise to learn something from history

And you would be wise to look at a calendar. Its 2019 now. Nobody's comin' to murder the Jews...or Mexicans...or anyone...:roll:
Man ya sound like a friggin' Tea-Bagger.

better than to be weak-minded

Damn spell checker...

now this is the part of your argument that you have convinced me you know something about

Oh I do.
There's a definite pathology to humans who fight blindly against anything Trump. I'm not sure whether I'm more amused by it than annoyed.
I mean ya gotta admit...listening to silly people who would put a criminal's rights over their own people is...odd to say the least.

i have not used that argument. some things are too obvious to require such comment

Sure ya have Bubba.

the wall' is a propaganda tool used by the president to persuade low IQ citizens to support his policies

See?

i accept your apology, buzz

Ya do, do ya...:roll:

 

[Buzz62]

While on that topic, how is Trump’s promise to “lock her up” going?

Not so good.
How's that quest for impeachment comin' along?

 

[Exactice]

Well, first we need to keep apples with apples and oranges with oranges, so we need first the answer to this:

What misdemeanors alleged committed before trial and sentencing, other than border crossing, is it US Policy to separate children from parents?


I googled this and could not find an answer, perhaps you have data on this.

You are kidding Right? I have typed it out so many times in our conversions. Ok lets try one more time.

THERE is NO Specific "Policy" Written in respect to Family Separation BY ANY Administration from my understanding. NONE. There is NONE from Clinton, to Bush to Obama To Trump.

What is Currently standing is a COMMON Practice Guidline BY ALL Law enforcement officers and agency and its called "Child Safeguard" When a Parent is DETAINED with a child in tow the child will be safeguarded by the LEO given to the FIRST available Legal Guardian and if NONE available CPS. OR in the Immigration case, DHS.

THIS is UNIVERSAL for Americans and Illegal Immigrants on ALL accounts for a PARENT that commits a crime. THIS IS universal PRACTICE from Shoplifting to Murder.

https://www.theiacp.org/sites/defau...Children-of-Arrested-Parents-Final_Web_v3.pdf


You are ASKING for a policy that is SPECIFIC to Parents that are being separated from their children at the border and its NON existent, Period. The discussion THAT I agree with you is potentially it SHOULD be addressed because the difference with MANY other scenarios is at the border the Parent does NO have another legal Guardian to release the child too like if a crime is committed in your neighborhood. The only place for the child to go is CPS or DHS.



Let me say it again to make sure its apples and Oranges.

People are trying to say Trumps zero tolerance is the reason for family separation This is 100% incorrect

Zero Tolerance is APPLES - Which trump PUT into effect consider that IT SHOULD NOT have needed to be said as LAWS need to be enforced 100%of the time.

Child Safeguard with a detained parent is ORANGES - Which is an ON going Standard operating procedures for ALL law enforcement agency REGARDLESS of crime. NOT limited in scope by illegal border crossing.



Does this make sense?


Let me try one more example!

Illegal Alien driving with their children in their car. Pulled over for DUI (which is a misdemeanor) for driving erratic. They are Arrested for all accounts. DUI, and what ever else. In this EXACT situation what happens to the children? The exact same thing at the border the children an removed from the detained adult Given to the first available legal guardian if NONE CPS take custody.

Now Remove the word "Illegal Alien" and put in American Citizen.... Guess WHAT Exactly the same procedures There is no policy for Family separation AT the border

 

[OscarLevant]

You are kidding Right? I have typed it out so many times in our conversions. Ok lets try one more time.

THERE is NO Specific "Policy" Written in respect to Family Separation BY ANY Administration from my understanding. NONE. There is NONE from Clinton, to Bush to Obama To Trump.

What is Currently standing is a COMMON Practice Guidline BY ALL Law enforcement officers and agency and its called "Child Safeguard" When a Parent is DETAINED with a child in tow the child will be safeguarded by the LEO given to the FIRST available Legal Guardian and if NONE available CPS. OR in the Immigration case, DHS.

THIS is UNIVERSAL for Americans and Illegal Immigrants on ALL accounts for a PARENT that commits a crime. THIS IS universal PRACTICE from Shoplifting to Murder.

https://www.theiacp.org/sites/defau...Children-of-Arrested-Parents-Final_Web_v3.pdf


You are ASKING for a policy that is SPECIFIC to Parents that are being separated from their children at the border and its NON existent, Period. The discussion THAT I agree with you is potentially it SHOULD be addressed because the difference with MANY other scenarios is at the border the Parent does NO have another legal Guardian to release the child too like if a crime is committed in your neighborhood. The only place for the child to go is CPS or DHS.



Let me say it again to make sure its apples and Oranges.

People are trying to say Trumps zero tolerance is the reason for family separation This is 100% incorrect

Zero Tolerance is APPLES - Which trump PUT into effect consider that IT SHOULD NOT have needed to be said as LAWS need to be enforced 100%of the time.

Child Safeguard with a detained parent is ORANGES - Which is an ON going Standard operating procedures for ALL law enforcement agency REGARDLESS of crime. NOT limited in scope by illegal border crossing.



Does this make sense?


Let me try one more example!

Illegal Alien driving with their children in their car. Pulled over for DUI (which is a misdemeanor) for driving erratic. They are Arrested for all accounts. DUI, and what ever else. In this EXACT situation what happens to the children? The exact same thing at the border the children an removed from the detained adult Given to the first available legal guardian if NONE CPS take custody.

Now Remove the word "Illegal Alien" and put in American Citizen.... Guess WHAT Exactly the same procedures There is no policy for Family separation AT the border

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Exactice]

You didn't answer the question.

YOU are kidding right?????? I gave a simple example of a DUI which a first offense and no death that would change it to a felony. The Parent is Arrested and detained and the child is transferred to a legal guardian and if NONE then to CPS.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIC POLICY ON FAMILY SEPARATION ITS CALLED Family Safeguard. IT CAN BE ANY MISDEMEANOR that is considered detain-able by an apprehending OFFICER.

 

[SLC]

YOU are kidding right?????? I gave a simple example of a DUI which a first offense and no death that would change it to a felony. The Parent is Arrested and detained and the child is transferred to a legal guardian and if NONE then to CPS.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIC POLICY ON FAMILY SEPARATION ITS CALLED Family Safeguard. IT CAN BE ANY MISDEMEANOR that is considered detain-able by an apprehending OFFICER.

Yep you took the words right out of my mouth. Notice the legal penalty for illegal entry into the United States.

The penalty for entering the US without a visa the first time is a fine or an imprisonment for up to six months, or sometimes both. In the case of a second offense, the person can be fined or imprisoned for up to two years. There is also a separate section of the US immigration law that adds penalties for reentry or attempted reentry.

 

[OscarLevant]

YOU are kidding right?????? I gave a simple example of a DUI which a first offense and no death that would change it to a felony. The Parent is Arrested and detained and the child is transferred to a legal guardian and if NONE then to CPS.

THERE IS NO SPECIFIC POLICY ON FAMILY SEPARATION ITS CALLED Family Safeguard. IT CAN BE ANY MISDEMEANOR that is considered detain-able by an apprehending OFFICER.

So, the child is removed while Misdemeanor, then? Or felony? You seem to be saying felony, due to the upgrade. So, that's not a misdemeanor, then, it can't be used in this comparison. Anyway.....

If teh child is removed during a misdemeanor, any misdemeanor,

To what extent is this being done? and are their studies across various departments, stats, charts, demographics?

See, what I"m trying to do is established the degree of similarity between how misdemeanors at the border are treated, and misdemeanors by US citizens/legal residents are treated under Trump's "zero tolerance" policy ( don't harp on it, he said it, his AG said it, so it's a policy, though not officially mentioned anywhere else, afaik )


You seem to be arguing that all misdemeanors are the same, and should all be treated exactly the same, regardless of circumstance, context, real world application, etc. IN other words, you are suggesting a one-size-fits-all approach to law enforcement, right?


I'm just trying to nail something down.

 

[Exactice]

Yep you took the words right out of my mouth. Notice the legal penalty for illegal entry into the United States.

You know the really sad part, I am IN no way trying to be condescending nor even wanting to be "Right" I just want to make sure we are having a fair debate where everything is transparent. But this guy keeps ingnoring my post while it might be long I am spending the time to explain my point....

3 times I explained and 3 times No you didnt........ getting tired I think Im done for the night.

 

[OscarLevant]

Zero Tolerance is APPLES - Which trump PUT into effect consider that IT SHOULD NOT have needed to be said as LAWS need to be enforced 100%of the time.

I can only go by what Trump said was his policy, and how he treated parents and children resulting from, directly or indirectly, that policy.

I'm interested in the real world, not should/could/would, etc.

 

[OscarLevant]

You are kidding Right? I have typed it out so many times in our conversions. Ok lets try one more time.

THERE is NO Specific "Policy" Written in respect to Family Separation BY ANY Administration from my understanding. NONE. There is NONE from Clinton, to Bush to Obama To Trump.

What is Currently standing is a COMMON Practice Guidline BY ALL Law enforcement officers and agency and its called "Child Safeguard" When a Parent is DETAINED with a child in tow the child will be safeguarded by the LEO given to the FIRST available Legal Guardian and if NONE available CPS. OR in the Immigration case, DHS.

THIS is UNIVERSAL for Americans and Illegal Immigrants on ALL accounts for a PARENT that commits a crime. THIS IS universal PRACTICE from Shoplifting to Murder.

https://www.theiacp.org/sites/defau...Children-of-Arrested-Parents-Final_Web_v3.pdf


You are ASKING for a policy that is SPECIFIC to Parents that are being separated from their children at the border and its NON existent, Period. The discussion THAT I agree with you is potentially it SHOULD be addressed because the difference with MANY other scenarios is at the border the Parent does NO have another legal Guardian to release the child too like if a crime is committed in your neighborhood. The only place for the child to go is CPS or DHS.



Let me say it again to make sure its apples and Oranges.

People are trying to say Trumps zero tolerance is the reason for family separation This is 100% incorrect

Zero Tolerance is APPLES - Which trump PUT into effect consider that IT SHOULD NOT have needed to be said as LAWS need to be enforced 100%of the time.

Child Safeguard with a detained parent is ORANGES - Which is an ON going Standard operating procedures for ALL law enforcement agency REGARDLESS of crime. NOT limited in scope by illegal border crossing.



Does this make sense?


Let me try one more example!

Illegal Alien driving with their children in their car. Pulled over for DUI (which is a misdemeanor) for driving erratic. They are Arrested for all accounts. DUI, and what ever else. In this EXACT situation what happens to the children? The exact same thing at the border the children an removed from the detained adult Given to the first available legal guardian if NONE CPS take custody.

Now Remove the word "Illegal Alien" and put in American Citizen.... Guess WHAT Exactly the same procedures There is no policy for Family separation AT the border

You know, I really don't care about all that.

Trump is separating children from parents for a misdemeanor, and you are saying they are criminals, and I"m saying they are not.

Whether you like it or not, there is a political dynamic here that cannot be ignored.

 

[SLC]

So, the child is removed while Misdemeanor, then? Or felony? You seem to be saying felony, due to the upgrade. So, that's not a misdemeanor, then, it can't be used in this comparison. Anyway.....

If teh child is removed during a misdemeanor, any misdemeanor,

To what extent is this being done? and are their studies across various departments, stats, charts, demographics?

See, what I"m trying to do is established the degree of similarity between how misdemeanors at the border are treated, and misdemeanors by US citizens/legal residents are treated under Trump's "zero tolerance" policy ( don't harp on it, he said it, his AG said it, so it's a policy, though not officially mentioned anywhere else, afaik )


You seem to be arguing that all misdemeanors are the same, and should all be treated exactly the same, regardless of circumstance, context, real world application, etc. IN other words, you are suggesting a one-size-fits-all approach to law enforcement, right?


I'm just trying to nail something down.

The bottom line is if you get arrested then your kids go to a family member or CPS. Illegal aliens by virtue of their crime represent a flight risk that most misdemeanors crimes don't. Some misdemeanor crimes can be handled with a ticket and others can't. People go to jail everyday for misdemeanor crimes. My brother was thrown in jail for a misdemeanor crime. I had to post his bail to get him out. So if an illegal chooses to violate our law I have no problem in following the law and throwing them into jail and placing their children in the care of CPS until the parent is released or deported.

 

[Exactice]

So, the child is removed while Misdemeanor, then? Or felony? You seem to be saying felony, due to the upgrade. So, that's not a misdemeanor, then, it can't be used in this comparison. Anyway.....

If teh child is removed during a misdemeanor, any misdemeanor,

To what extent is this being done? and are their studies across various departments, stats, charts, demographics?

See, what I"m trying to do is established the degree of similarity between how misdemeanors at the border are treated, and misdemeanors by US citizens/legal residents are treated under Trump's "zero tolerance" policy ( don't harp on it, he said it, his AG said it, so it's a policy, though not officially mentioned anywhere else, afaik )


You seem to be arguing that all misdemeanors are the same, and should all be treated exactly the same, regardless of circumstance, context, real world application, etc. IN other words, you are suggesting a one-size-fits-all approach to law enforcement, right?


I'm just trying to nail something down.

Read AGAIN I used the POINT that a FIRST offense is a Misdemeanor, ONLY killing someone turns that into a homicide WHICH I AM NOT DISCUSSING...

Secondly by the rule of law it is UNIVERSAL, it should NOT change or vary by race, creed, color, circumstance etc. BUT in the real world LEO's DO in fact choose when to enforce the law. YES we saw that WITH the Obama ADMIN. CHILD SAFEGUARD policy Is absolutely the exact same as OBAMA as TRUMP. THERE was NO Change or adjustments. IT was at the SOLE discretion of the arresting officer. THAT is why Trump saw that as an issue and ordered the zero tolerance.

I do not have the stats that you are discussing. BUT I can only share my experience from my LEO back ground operating in 3 difference countries under 3 different circumstances BUT the Law was all the same.

I do not have facts to collateral but I will give you the BEST example from my experience.

1) Illegally entering our COUNTRY may have a higher standard in the Misdemeanor class NOT because of the ACT but the CAUSE and Effect. A person that is NOT verified to Travel in the US or "Vetted" could be a threat to National Security. While we can agree 90% of all illegal immigrants are NOT criminals there is still a very real chance that anyone could be. Criminals have multiple attempts to get it right, SAME with terrorist. They will try to penetrate our borders and safety systems. LEO's have but ONE chance to get it right. THE moment that they let 1 through that could cause havoc and loss of life. As an LEO I have faced this real concern along with briefings on BOLO's (Be on the look out). IN other words X person matches X physical description. YET with NO ID or travel documentation to verify WHO the person in, NO throw in a child That is "Hearts and minds and emotional" As they US THIS AGAINST BP agents to try to get past them..... I all due respect. THese people do NOT have a VISA likely no passports nor an embassy that they could go to to apply so we JUST do NOT know who they are.

2) Compare that to a comparable misdemeanor. That is why I used DUI as a threat to the public. We cannot release them or NOT detain them after the are caught. It is too high risk compared to Say EXCESSIVE SPEEDING or Racing on a Highway that may be considered a major traffic crime or misdemeanor but they are RELEASED on their own accord with a court date to appear. (I have had to pick up 2 people for the Jail with $500 cash to bail them out after a DUI-First offense)

So to correlate the crime is not EXACT science and its NOT easy necessarily but there are general reason and guidelines.

With that being said I again see your point and I AGREE with you that there SHOULD be a policy that specifically address this circumstance in specificity OF the Border Family separation. BUT I then again pose the (Slippery slope) Back to you.......

Why does a non citizen get discretion over a US citizen. AGAIN why not say if they are CAUGHT out side of a port of entry (they intent-fully tried to get in) They should get the big stiff arm and turned right around CHILDREN or NOT they CHOSE to try and enter our country WITH intent to not do it legally.

 

[Exactice]

You know, I really don't care about all that.

Trump is separating children from parents for a misdemeanor, and you are saying they are criminals, and I"m saying they are not.

Whether you like it or not, there is a political dynamic here that cannot be ignored.

I can see you do NOT care about facts that do NOT fit your narrative,

You keep regurgitating the same rhetoric That Trump is separating families. I have laid FACTUAL evidence from the LAW stand point the Operating procedures and common practices. YOU just said you dont care that settles it you do NOT care about truth and facts just what fits your agenda.

Its not a matter if I like it or NOT I agree there is ABSOLUTE political dynamics but to blame trump is just false. THE fact is Someone Initiated the Child Safeguard SOP. Someone Initiated the Immigrations Laws. Someone classified Illegal border crossing as a detain-able misdemeanor AND it was NOT TRUMP. Trump just waned the law to be 100% enforced .

YOu can put whatever other False Rhetoric you want as UN FACTUAL.

 

[OscarLevant]

The bottom line is if you get arrested then your kids go to a family member or CPS. Illegal aliens by virtue of their crime represent a flight risk that most misdemeanors crimes don't. Some misdemeanor crimes can be handled with a ticket and others can't. People go to jail everyday for misdemeanor crimes. My brother was thrown in jail for a misdemeanor crime. I had to post his bail to get him out. So if an illegal chooses to violate our law I have no problem in following the law and throwing them into jail and placing their children in the care of CPS until the parent is released or deported.

So we're arresting people for misdemeanors everywhere in all cases?

 

[Exactice]

So we're arresting people for misdemeanors everywhere in all cases?

from my experience as an LEO and Arresting people.

IF the Misdemeanor is considered a DETAIN-ABLE crime YES. That is set by department guidelines.

AS discussed NOT all Misdemeanors are detain-able PERIOD. BUT Some are.

Illegally entering the country poses a security threat as well as a Flight risk
DUI poses a danger to society and so detainment is eminent
Domestic Violence is detain-able


I do not have the resources to list all Potential Detain-able misdemeanors, but as SLC and I have stated if you look at the type of crime and RISK inherent it does extend to a detain-able/apprehension justification.


Here is the CATCH ALL POINT..... IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, go to your congress person and lobby for a change in the LAW. THE LAW has been in place WELL before TRUMP PERIOD. The department practices have been IN PLACE WELL BEFORE TRUMP. Trump is only stating 100% enforcement WITHOUT Changing department Practices. IF YOU FEEL That Trump has in FACT changed department Practices please Show me ANY POLICY and GUIDANCE AND LAW that TRUMP has passed that changes department guidelines.

OR was the ZERO Tolerance ONLY for 100% enforcement of the law and the MEDIA has fed the false narrative that TRUMP is separating families


READ IT - https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download

Please show me ANYWHERE in the AG Memo that changes, revises, applies, dictates ANY type of department guidelines in relation to Child Safeguard policies and practices THAT ARE UNIVERSAL???


Would it be HARD to believe that Clinton, Bush, Obama, ALL had the exact same Child Safeguard policies in place during their tenures???? There was No modification of it in their administrations?

 

[OscarLevant]

Read AGAIN I used the POINT that a FIRST offense is a Misdemeanor, ONLY killing someone turns that into a homicide WHICH I AM NOT DISCUSSING...

Secondly by the rule of law it is UNIVERSAL, it should NOT change or vary by race, creed, color, circumstance etc. BUT in the real world LEO's DO in fact choose when to enforce the law. YES we saw that WITH the Obama ADMIN. CHILD SAFEGUARD policy Is absolutely the exact same as OBAMA as TRUMP. THERE was NO Change or adjustments. IT was at the SOLE discretion of the arresting officer. THAT is why Trump saw that as an issue and ordered the zero tolerance.

I do not have the stats that you are discussing. BUT I can only share my experience from my LEO back ground operating in 3 difference countries under 3 different circumstances BUT the Law was all the same.

I do not have facts to collateral but I will give you the BEST example from my experience.

1) Illegally entering our COUNTRY may have a higher standard in the Misdemeanor class NOT because of the ACT but the CAUSE and Effect. A person that is NOT verified to Travel in the US or "Vetted" could be a threat to National Security. While we can agree 90% of all illegal immigrants are NOT criminals there is still a very real chance that anyone could be. Criminals have multiple attempts to get it right, SAME with terrorist. They will try to penetrate our borders and safety systems. LEO's have but ONE chance to get it right. THE moment that they let 1 through that could cause havoc and loss of life. As an LEO I have faced this real concern along with briefings on BOLO's (Be on the look out). IN other words X person matches X physical description. YET with NO ID or travel documentation to verify WHO the person in, NO throw in a child That is "Hearts and minds and emotional" As they US THIS AGAINST BP agents to try to get past them..... I all due respect. THese people do NOT have a VISA likely no passports nor an embassy that they could go to to apply so we JUST do NOT know who they are.

2) Compare that to a comparable misdemeanor. That is why I used DUI as a threat to the public. We cannot release them or NOT detain them after the are caught. It is too high risk compared to Say EXCESSIVE SPEEDING or Racing on a Highway that may be considered a major traffic crime or misdemeanor but they are RELEASED on their own accord with a court date to appear. (I have had to pick up 2 people for the Jail with $500 cash to bail them out after a DUI-First offense)

So to correlate the crime is not EXACT science and its NOT easy necessarily but there are general reason and guidelines.

With that being said I again see your point and I AGREE with you that there SHOULD be a policy that specifically address this circumstance in specificity OF the Border Family separation. BUT I then again pose the (Slippery slope) Back to you.......

Why does a non citizen get discretion over a US citizen. AGAIN why not say if they are CAUGHT out side of a port of entry (they intent-fully tried to get in) They should get the big stiff arm and turned right around CHILDREN or NOT they CHOSE to try and enter our country WITH intent to not do it legally.

I don't believe separating children from parents for first time crossers is moral