Trump threatens to lift tariffs on Chinese goods to 30% amid escalating trade war

[Luckyone]

Scary how? Are you an investor?

I'll repeat. We need to deal with China now, or we never will.

If you are concerned about the economy because of Trump's actions against China, then you have just confirmed how powerfully pervasive Chinese industry is in our economy, and how dependent we are becoming.

If THAT doesn't concern you, then IMO it should. So blame it on Trump if you will. But his actions are only showing up the problem we are dealing with, and should deal with while we have someone with the will to do so.

Going after China was a good idea. Unfortunately it is being carried out by an incompetent man that makes the bad people look good and hurts the good people (American farmers and the American populace) and pay for his mistake.

Earlier tonight I head an analyst say that "so far" the trade war has cost each U.S. citizen $1000, either through higher taxes or higher costs of products.

One thought that has been mentioned recently is that Trump should not have pulled out of TPP if he was going after China. TPP was a free trade agreement between 13 countries, many of which were in the China area and has Trump used the TPP against China, it would have been a strong deterrent to China because trade from the China area would have been controlled by the U.S.

Now China is thinking about entering the new TPP partnership that was formed after Trump left and if they do, the opposite will occur and those 13 countries (not just China) will control trade in that area and that would be a death blow to us.

Trump has had no solutions to the problem and things continue to get worse for us and for the rest of the world. The idea had the right objective but the wrong execution by an incompetent man that has a big mouth but a small brain.

Incompetency can make things worse rather than better, no matter the just reasons for doing the deed.

 

[beerftw]

So when all the corporations move their manufacturing to Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Djibouti, Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, Nigeria, or any of a hundred other third world sweatshop havens, will that help us any? Because if you think Trump's trade war with China is going to either correct the trade imbalance or bring manufacturing back to the USA in droves, you are partaking in delusional thinking.
Any tiny bit of manufacturing that did come back here will be highly automated, or even completely so, and it is doubtful that more than a thimbleful will anyway, given the choices overseas.

Oh wait, almost forgot Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador!

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Believe it or not many business have been returning to america because overseas operations in the end prove to save very little once you count shipping customs epa regs etc. Staanley tools for example has been expanding american operations since they realized the profits were not there in overseas production.

Many of the companies fighting are doing so because they went all in on chinese manufacturing and have long shut down their american logistics for manufacturing, this would require them to actually invest in reviving the logistic infrastructure which they do not want to spend, they got lured in by cheap labor and went broke the bank going overseas only to realize it was not profitable like they thought, but will not go break the bank again to return it.

I will give you an example, I will use tools since I use them daily, western forge screwdrivers used by husky and craftsmen are cheap and high quality, infact if you go to home depot the better quality screwdrivers are also cheaper than the chinese and taiwan made ones but home depot hides them in the back to deter people from buying them. If it is more expensive for a chinese or taiwan tool than a higher quality tool made in colorado, that tells me there is a problem. Craftsmen tools in general, before going to china for production their american made tool sets were medium quality, the best you could get without tool truck prices, and they were cheap. I could get a massive toolset for a few hundred bucks in 2011 with american made craftsmen, now since the chinese made before the trump tariffs their prices had been going sky high, they got a lower quality tool that cost more than the higher quality one.


If you are not getting it by this point outside of taiwan who will use chinese parts and assemble them to get made in taiwan on them, there are no other viable countries to just simply start production as the costs would be massive to start a new infrastructure to support manufacturing, it would be cheaper at that point to just go back to america to produce goods.

 

[Geoist]

Scary how? Are you an investor?

I'll repeat. We need to deal with China now, or we never will.

What is the end game? You think China will just wave the white flag? Drive up costs enough in China and the companies will just head for cheaper labor elsewhere (Vietnam, India, wherever.)

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Scary how? Are you an investor?

I'll repeat. We need to deal with China now, or we never will.

If you are concerned about the economy because of Trump's actions against China, then you have just confirmed how powerfully pervasive Chinese industry is in our economy, and how dependent we are becoming.

If THAT doesn't concern you, then IMO it should. So blame it on Trump if you will. But his actions are only showing up the problem we are dealing with, and should deal with while we have someone with the will to do so.

This is not the way to go about it. Trump lacks diplomacy.

Obama had a much better plan. We would form a trade partnership with other Asian companies which would put pressure on China. But the Chosen One wants to bully China into complying.

What if China doesn't back down? And hurting China's economy will hurt the entire global economy. How long will you stand by Trump? Global recession? War with China?

 

[ttwtt78640]

You can always use Google instead of baiting.

I have used Google and by this time you have hopefully done so as well. How, exactly, is it baiting to ask you for the China trade policy positions of your prreferred replacements for Trump? Rather than argue that Biden's (what, me worry?) policy is better than Trump's (or Warren's) impose tariifs to force better 'fair trade' complaince by China you reply with some "baiting" nonsense instead. I get it that you feel required to join into any "Trump is doing/saying someting wrong" thread but at least address the topic (in this case tariffs on Chinese imports) instead of simply spewing Biden or Warren would be better in 2021.

 

[joko104]

Trump threatens to lift tariffs on Chinese goods to 30% amid escalating trade war



Oh goody. That will bring China to heel.

This is getting actually scary.


How much more of this will Republicans let him do before they agree to impeachment or say it's time to trigger the 25th Amendment?

How far along are you on learning Chinese? I've heard it is a very difficult language to learn written or spoken.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

How long will you stand by Trump?

blackwhite — the ability to believe that black is white, to know that black is white, and to forget that one ever believed the contrary

doublethink — the act of simultaneously believing two, mutually contradictory ideas

duckspeak — automatic, vocal support of political orthodoxies

bellyfeel — the blind, enthusiastic acceptance of an idea

 

[itstony]

I'm in the automotive aftermarket and here's what I do know. Another 5% increase in the tariff means another 5% price adjustment coming from my vendors which means another 5% price increase to my customers who will pass it along to the end user. I have some lines that have already increased 25% since this started. He needs an exit plan and I have no confidence he has one.

But I'm sure China will be paying for this just like Mexico is paying for the wall............ oh, wait.

 

[Amelia]

I'm in the automotive aftermarket and here's what I do know. Another 5% increase in the tariff means another 5% price adjustment coming from my vendors which means another 5% price increase to my customers who will pass it along to the end user. I have some lines that have already increased 25% since this started. He needs an exit plan and I have no confidence he has one.

But I'm sure China will be paying for this just like Mexico is paying for the wall............ oh, wait.

.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I think most of us are concerned because Trump has no plan and no idea how to get out of the hole he is digging. Every expert on Chinese culture will tell you bring to force them to do something with this type of tacit is going to fail.

1. The bolded is both an Appeal to Authority and an Appeal to Popularity. "Everyone knows that Every expert on China..." Really? You've spoken to literally EVERY "expert on China" in the USA? In the WORLD? Moreover, "EVERYONE KNOWS" this to be true? :roll:

And if I shoot myself in the face and need a trach tube to breathe, that shows I was too dependent upon breathing through my mouth.

2. Reductio ad absurdum, appeal to the extremes. :doh

So when all the corporations move their manufacturing to Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Djibouti, Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, Nigeria, or any of a hundred other third world sweatshop havens, will that help us any? Because if you think Trump's trade war with China is going to either correct the trade imbalance or bring manufacturing back to the USA in droves, you are partaking in delusional thinking.
Any tiny bit of manufacturing that did come back here will be highly automated, or even completely so, and it is doubtful that more than a thimbleful will anyway, given the choices overseas.

What is the end game? You think China will just wave the white flag? Drive up costs enough in China and the companies will just head for cheaper labor elsewhere (Vietnam, India, wherever.)

3. Slippery slope. "Oh my! If not China then India, Bangla des, etc.!"

What you have confirmed is trump has not ability to negotiate squat. When the economy tanks the blame fall on trump and the Repubs head, the Democrats thank you

4. Argumentum in terrorem, appeal to fear. (BTW, I am not a "Republican.")


(Sigh)

Every one of these responses fails to provide an argument.

They all also ignore my point, which is that the fears posited by the post I responded to demonstrate exactly why Trump is taking action now. He said it plain as day, past President's and Congress could have acted in response to clear indicators that China was not playing "fair" with trade. They did not. So he "took the bull by the horns" and is giving it a shot.

He has the courage to take the heat, and attempt to deal with it now. This is the one thing none of you see that his supporters (despite other things we disagree with) do, which maintains his support. He sees a problem and tries to address it. He may do it like "a bull in a China shop" (pun intended), but that's because "enlightened folks" like all those "experts" you cite refuse to cooperate, compromise, or even TRY to give him guidance. It's been "get rid of him by any means necessary" from day one.

 

[RAMOSS]

He is so screwed for November 2020.

This has freaked the majority of the nation out to the core, as they watch the 'Master Negotiator' prove he knows nothing about economics, and gets closer and closer to doing serious damage to the markets.

That 56% that routinely disapproves of him is ready to vote him out right now. It won't matter if it's Biden or Warren, they're ready for any mentally stable adult to take the wheel, and end this dangerous tyranny that Trump practices.

I know the election is over a year out, but it's hard to see Trump surviving this mess.

If it was a choice between Trump, and or any one of many of the Republicans that were running in 2016, I would take almost any of the others.

 

[Geoist]

3. Slippery slope. "Oh my! If not China then India, Bangla des, etc.!"

So I'll ask you again, "What is the endgame?" There is always going to be cheap labor under a globalized corporate economy.

 

[Grand Mal]

I'm in the automotive aftermarket and here's what I do know. Another 5% increase in the tariff means another 5% price adjustment coming from my vendors which means another 5% price increase to my customers who will pass it along to the end user. I have some lines that have already increased 25% since this started. He needs an exit plan and I have no confidence he has one.

But I'm sure China will be paying for this just like Mexico is paying for the wall............ oh, wait.

Trump says he needs to deal with China but maybe China will end up teaching the US to not upset the apple cart.

 

[Captain Adverse]

So I'll ask you again, "What is the endgame?" There is always going to be cheap labor under a globalized corporate economy.

The endgame?

Well I am not sitting in the "big house" offering the President advice.

But I am willing to take him at his word. A FAIR trade deal which protects intellectual property, more balanced trade, reductions in tariffs to at least equal levels (China's were twice ours back before this kerfuffle), and perhaps some controls or penalties for currency manipulation. Those would be a good start.

 

[Geoist]

The endgame?

Well I am not sitting in the "big house" offering the President advice.

But I am willing to take him at his word. A FAIR trade deal which protects intellectual property, more balanced trade, reductions in tariffs to at least equal levels (China's were twice ours back before this kerfuffle), and perhaps some controls or penalties for currency manipulation. Those would be a good start.

You are willing to take the the word of a clown who bankrupted a casino and started a mortgage company at the height of the housing bubble?

There is no winning this fight for Trump, especially considering he is going up against a country that was willing to sacrifice the lives of tens of millions of its own people 60 years ago.

 

[Grand Mal]

The endgame?

Well I am not sitting in the "big house" offering the President advice.

But I am willing to take him at his word. A FAIR trade deal which protects intellectual property, more balanced trade, reductions in tariffs to at least equal levels (China's were twice ours back before this kerfuffle), and perhaps some controls or penalties for currency manipulation. Those would be a good start.

But that's not what China wants. China doesn't care what you want. Just watch how they treat their own people and try to imagine how much they care about Americans. China will get what they want because they're infinitly more willing to endure the privations of a seige than Americans are. And they know it.

 

[Geoist]

Aw, Captain. Where'd your post go? Was really looking forward to responding...

 

[Captain Adverse]

But that's not what China wants. China doesn't care what you want. Just watch how they treat their own people and try to imagine how much they care about Americans. China will get what they want because they're infinitly more willing to endure the privations of a seige than Americans are. And they know it.

EXACTLY why we need to minimize, if not cut economic ties with them.

There are all sorts of other nations, in fact several were listed by one of the members in this thread, who not only have large, willing populations, but also have economic ideals similar to our own.

Let China play it's economic games without our participation.

Recognize that we are already IN an economic war with them. Have been for DECADES.

IMO most Americans refuse to see this, so enamored with cheap Chinese consumer goods they think China is becoming more like us.

Not true. IMO the ultimate goals of the Communist regime are not conducive to ours in the long game they are playing.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

3. Slippery slope. "Oh my! If not China then India, Bangla des, etc.!"

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy in which a party asserts that a relatively small and seemingly innocuous first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant negative effect.

There's nothing "relatively small" about moving a bunch of factories out of China and into a neighboring poorer country known for sweatshops.
And for your edification, you might want to read up on the history of such actions.

At one time, the maquiladora program was Mexico's second largest source of export income, second only to oil, but since 2000 the availability of even cheaper labor in China and Central American nations has caused the number of maquiladora plants to steadily dwindle.
If China becomes too costly due to tariffs, will your slippery slope defense prevent those Chinese factories from being gutted and moved?

No, it won't. Because it didn't prevent big business from pulling up stakes in the Mexican maquiladoras.

Will your slippery slope defense motivate big business to come back here?
No, it won't.

Your slippery slope argument can't even win the argument.

 

[itstony]

Having the people and having the infrastructure to replace a world power like China are two completely different things.

 

[Amelia]

He has the courage to take the heat, and attempt to deal with it now. This is the one thing none of you see that his supporters (despite other things we disagree with) do, which maintains his support. He sees a problem and tries to address it. He may do it like "a bull in a China shop" (pun intended), but that's because "enlightened folks" like all those "experts" you cite refuse to cooperate, compromise, or even TRY to give him guidance. It's been "get rid of him by any means necessary" from day one.

He is making things worse.

No participation trophy for trying and effing things up, when he didn't have to be effing things up. He is proud of his ignorance. He is proud of ignoring people who actually know things about China. He lacks impulse control and calls it going with his gut, and he is proud of that.

If he had been willing to learn, if he had been willing to seek and follow counsel from people who understand the global economy in general and China in particular, he could have used his great determination and leveraged significant concessions from China.

But he didn't.

So no trophy for trying when he's making things worse because he doesn't have the discipline to do things in an intelligent manner.

 

[Geoist]

EXACTLY why we need to minimize, if not cut economic ties with them.

There are all sorts of other nations, in fact several were listed by one of the members in this thread, who not only have large, willing populations, but also have economic ideals similar to our own.

Let China play it's economic games without our participation.

Recognize that we are already IN an economic war with them. Have been for DECADES.

IMO most Americans refuse to see this. Their ultimate goals are not conducive to ours in the long game they are playing.

You think China is the only country that 'plays games?' You think our corporations don't do super shady **** in developing nations? The horrible effects of globalized corporatism is not localized to a single country.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

He may do it like "a bull in a China shop" (pun intended), but that's because "enlightened folks" like all those "experts" you cite refuse to cooperate, compromise, or even TRY to give him guidance.

No, he's not doing it like a bull in a china shop, he's doing it like a retarded gangbanger on crack.
And NO, experts aren't advising him for one simple reason: Donald Trump NEVER listens to anyone, except those who kowtow and genuflect to him.
If you disagree with Trump, you are INSTANTLY and IRREVOCABLY SHUT OUT, and BRANDED.

There is no "guiding" Donald Trump, there's only bare, raw sycophancy and groveling.
Donald Trump's "advisers" are a pack of Flying Yes Men, nothing more.

 

[Grand Mal]

EXACTLY why we need to minimize, if not cut economic ties with them.

There are all sorts of other nations, in fact several were listed by one of the members in this thread, who not only have large, willing populations, but also have economic ideals similar to our own.

Let China play it's economic games without our participation.

Recognize that we are already IN an economic war with them. Have been for DECADES.

IMO most Americans refuse to see this, so enamored with cheap Chinese consumer goods they think China is becoming more like us.

Not true. IMO the ultimate goals of the Communist regime are not conducive to ours in the long game they are playing.

Might be time to recognize the new facts of life in a global economy. As in a change in hegemony. Do you think China doesn't know about those other nations? Hell, they've been buying Africa one collective farm at a time and cutting the politicians who made the deals in on the profits.

 

[itstony]

No, he's not doing it like a bull in a china shop, he's doing it like a retarded gangbanger on crack.
And NO, experts aren't advising him for one simple reason: Donald Trump NEVER listens to anyone, except those who kowtow and genuflect to him.
If you disagree with Trump, you are INSTANTLY and IRREVOCABLY SHUT OUT, and BRANDED.

There is no "guiding" Donald Trump, there's only bare, raw sycophancy and groveling.
Donald Trump's "advisers" are a pack of Flying Yes Men, nothing more.

Bingo