Trump: 'Robert E. Lee was a great general'

[PIPEWRENCH]

Regarding Texas v. White, your opinion does not matter in the slightest. Neither does mine. It is the law of the land, period.
No state has the right to leave the Union without the consent of the other states. Any attempt to secede will be met by force.

I agree we have not evolved enough to enjoy true freedom. SAD.

 

[Ouroboros]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but Trump's opinion was amusing because of something I read in a Civil War book by one Jeffrey Rogers Hummel.

Hummel claimed that the main reason Grant won his battles was because he was too far away from Washington for Lincoln to micro-manage the field strategies, as the President allegedly did with other Union generals.

 

[Ouroboros]

Regarding Texas v. White, your opinion does not matter in the slightest. Neither does mine. It is the law of the land, period.
No state has the right to leave the Union without the consent of the other states. Any attempt to secede will be met by force.

It's been argued, however, that the Constitution isn't that explicit on the subject, and that anti-secessionism wasn't the Law of the Land until after Lincoln decided it was.

 

[Jack Hays]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but Trump's opinion was amusing because of something I read in a Civil War book by one Jeffrey Rogers Hummel.

Hummel claimed that the main reason Grant won his battles was because he was too far away from Washington for Lincoln to micro-manage the field strategies, as the President allegedly did with other Union generals.

Your JRH is an idiot.

 

[Tangmo]

he should have merely defended and not extended his supply lines rather than trying to attack in the north. that was his biggest mistake

Most of Lee's generals at Gettysburg thought Lee was going to fight a defensive engagement. Longstreet certainly thought so as did Pickett and so on. They were aghast when Lee started coming out with all these offensive operation plans and schemes...

Longstreet joined Lee on Seminary Ridge west of Gettysburg about 5 o’clock in the afternoon. Longstreet turned to him and remarked: ‘We could not call the enemy to position better suited to our plans. All that we have to do is file around his left and secure good ground between him and his capital.’

Lee reacted with some anger to Longstreet’s advice and, jabbing a fist toward Cemetery Ridge, replied, ‘If the enemy is there tomorrow, we must attack him.’

‘If he is there,’ Longstreet shot back, ‘it will be because he is anxious that we should attack him — a good reason, in my judgment, for not doing so.’

Neither man said anything else, and as Longstreet admitted later, he ‘was not a little surprised’ at his commander’s reaction, his apparent ‘impatience.’

Longstreet wrote McLaws about how surprised he was to find ‘all of our previously arranged plans to [be] unexpectedly changed and why I might wish and hope to get the Gen. to consider our former arrangements.’ It looked like another Chancellorsville, perhaps another uphill assault as at Malvern Hill, to Longstreet, and he thought it a mistake, a dismissal of their previous discussions.


Before sunrise Lee rode to Longstreet’s position, near the position known ever since as the Peach Orchard, where he expected to find preparations for the assault underway. When he did not find the men forming, Lee sought Longstreet and an explanation.

‘General,’ Longstreet said in welcome, ‘I have had my scouts out all night, and I find that you still have an excellent opportunity to move around to the right of Meade’s army and maneuver him into attacking us.’

Lee clearly was angry; he had heard enough. He pointed toward Cemetery Ridge and said, ‘The enemy is there, and I am going to strike him.’

Longstreet said that a direct assault on the Federal position was doomed — that it would mean ‘the sacrifice of my men.’ As Longstreet recalled later: ‘I felt then that it was my duty to express my convictions. I said, ‘General, I have been a soldier all my life. I have been with soldiers engaged in fights by couples, by squads, companies, regiments, divisions, and armies, and should know, as well as anyone, what soldiers can do. It is my opinion that no fifteen thousand men ever arranged for battle can take that position.”

The exchange was a defining moment between the two generals — the culmination of three days of disagreement over the army’s tactics. From the afternoon of the 1st, Longstreet had seen Lee taking risks, willing to accept casualties while striking the enemy. Now, Lee was asking even more, a frontal assault with no chance of success, with an enormous loss of life a certainty. The idea went against the basic beliefs and characteristics of Longstreet’s generalship.

‘Never was I so depressed,’ Longstreet wrote afterward of this day. But Lee’s orders stood, and preparations proceeded throughout the morning. Longstreet had responsibility for the assault force comprising Maj. Gen. George E. Pickett’s three brigades and six brigades from A.P. Hill’s corps.

America's Civil War: Robert E. Lee and James Longstreet at Odds at Gettysburg | HistoryNet


Lee was a career officer in the US Army Corps of Engineers. Longstreet was a career officer of infantry and had commanded at every level of infantry. Longstreet knew Lee knew precious little of the whole of it.

 

[Ouroboros]

Of course the President was more concerned about protecting the Union. Protecting the country is the President's primary function. Lincoln was opposed to slavery from the very beginnings of his political career. The South was never going to free any of the slaves unless they were compelled to do so. Lincoln had it right when he said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Not that he feared the house would fall. But rather the government could not continue on with being half slave and half free. It eventually will have to be all of one thing or the other.

But does it necessarily follow that Lincoln's primary reason for fighting the war was because he wanted an end to slavery?

 

[Jack Hays]

It's been argued, however, that the Constitution isn't that explicit on the subject, and that anti-secessionism wasn't the Law of the Land until after Lincoln decided it was.

Lincoln did not create the idea of fighting for the Union.

 

[Tangmo]

The Confederate Colonels

At Gettysburg Lee lost 19 colonels on day three by his attack against the Union center embedded across a big open field. Among the colonels was the young VMI graduate James Keith Marshall who Pettigrew had advanced to brigade commander. The Brigadier Pettigrew became division commander after Maj.-Gen Heth was evacuated due to artillery wounds. Pettigrew selected the dynamic and courageous leader J.K Marshall over the senior colonels:

Colonel James Keith Marshall


Born in 1839 James Keith Marshall was a teacher in North Carolina who began the war as a captain in the 1st North Carolina Infantry. He eventually became colonel of the 52nd North Carolina Infantry. This unit arrived at Gettysburg as a part of Pettigrew's North Carolina Brigade in Heth's Division. When General Heth (pronounced Heath) was wounded by artillery fire on the first day of battle, Pettigrew was placed in command of the division. Pettigrew put his North Carolina Brigade under the able command of Colonel James Keith Marshall. Despite the brigade having suffered 1,100 casualties out of 2,584 men on the first day of battle, they were ordered to participate in "Pickett's Charge" on the third and final day. As Marshall led the brigade past the Emmitsburg Road, he turned to General Heth's lieutenant son and said, "We do not know which of us is to fall next." Moments later as his brigade neared the stonewall, Colonel Marshall was struck in the forehead by two bullets and killed instantly. He was buried on the battlefield and probably removed to Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond, Virginia along with his men after the war. He was 24 years old.

Tim Kent's Civil War tales: The 19 Confederate Colonel's of Gettysburg: Part III


Many of Lee's colonels at Gettysburg were twentysomething graduates of VMI and too many of them were buried in the days following Lee's retreat. While Pettigrew took the one brigade he had remaining of his division to cover Lee's retreat from Gettysburg, Union cavalry set upon them killing Pettigrew and inflicting 56% casualties on the already decimated brigade. As the last casualty of Gettysburg Pettigrew died and took his division with him.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Rommel was never defeated tactically. He had the same problem Lee had: he ran out of beans and bullets.

Lol not really.

Rommel's defeat at El Alamein was the direct result of his failure to understand his own logistical and strategic situation. He built his reputation on his admittedly great understanding of the flow of battle and where to apply pressure, but when it came time to put together a sustained campaign he very quickly showed he was out of his element and subsequently was decisively defeated by Montgomery.

I would actually play Lee about Rommel since Lee possessed a superior understanding of strategy, even if it was ultimately limited.

 

[Ouroboros]

Lincoln did not create the idea of fighting for the Union.

I'm sure a lot of people before Lincoln talked the talk.

He's the first post-Revolution President who actually walked the walk, though.

 

[Tangmo]

Rommel was never defeated tactically. He had the same problem Lee had: he ran out of beans and bullets.

Same as with Lee it turned out badly for Rommel's troops he also needed a lot more bandages. You forgot it's beans, bullets and bandages. If you ever knew it that is.

Montgomery formed a battle line across the desert that left Rommel looking grimly at all of four options:

1) Attack head on which Rommel did not have the resources to execute;
2) Run his tanks into the Med to his north;
3) Run his tanks off into a deep crevass to his south;
4) Turn around fast and dash like hell to Egypt.


Recognizing impending doom Rommel chose to go to Normandy to defend against an allied invasion of Europe from across the Channel. That didn't go well either did it. Which places both Lee and Rommel in the Losers Hall of Fame. Bizarre it is indeed that it's fame rather than shame.

I'd already mentioned Rommel was forced to suicide for his participation in a failed plot against Hitler. That's good on Rommel because Lee never considered such a thing against his beloved racist Confederacy and Virginia. Lee and Confederate generals were more fiercely loyal to the one party Confederate state than Rommel and a bunch of German generals were to Hitler and the Nazi regime. The Confederate generals were more fanatical in their loyalties than were Attila and his Hun generals to theirs. We're talking barbarians here. There's no such thing as gentlemen barbarians either. And neither are barbarians noble.

 

[apdst]

Same as with Lee it turned out badly for Rommel's troops he also needed a lot more bandages. You forgot it's beans, bullets and bandages. If you ever knew it that is.

Montgomery formed a battle line across the desert that left Rommel looking grimly at all of four options:

1) Attack head on which Rommel did not have the resources to execute;
2) Run his tanks into the Med to his north;
3) Run his tanks off into a deep crevass to his south;
4) Turn around fast and dash like hell to Egypt.


Recognizing impending doom Rommel chose to go to Normandy to defend against an allied invasion of Europe from across the Channel. That didn't go well either did it. Which places both Lee and Rommel in the Losers Hall of Fame. Bizarre it is indeed that it's fame rather than shame.

I'd already mentioned Rommel was forced to suicide for his participation in a failed plot against Hitler. That's good on Rommel because Lee never considered such a thing against his beloved racist Confederacy and Virginia. Lee and Confederate generals were more fiercely loyal to the one party Confederate state than Rommel and a bunch of German generals were to Hitler and the Nazi regime. The Confederate generals were more fanatical in their loyalties than were Attila and his Hun generals to theirs. We're talking barbarians here. There's no such thing as gentlemen barbarians either. And neither are barbarians noble.

Montgomery outnumbered Rommel 3:1. It's not like Montgomery had to face overwhelming odds.

 

[apdst]

Lol not really.

Rommel's defeat at El Alamein was the direct result of his failure to understand his own logistical and strategic situation. He built his reputation on his admittedly great understanding of the flow of battle and where to apply pressure, but when it came time to put together a sustained campaign he very quickly showed he was out of his element and subsequently was decisively defeated by Montgomery.

I would actually play Lee about Rommel since Lee possessed a superior understanding of strategy, even if it was ultimately limited.

Montgomery, at 2nd El Alamein outnumbered Rommel 3:1. Montgomery had 2 options: win, or surrender.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Montgomery, at 2nd El Alamein outnumbered Rommel 3:1. Montgomery had 2 options: win, or surrender.

And? The British had outnumbered Rommel before and he had still beaten them, so clearly numbers were not Rommel's problem.

No, the reality is Rommel put himself in a terrible position by failing to grasp the operational situation he was in. He is directly at fault for the German defeat.

 

[apdst]

And? The British had outnumbered Rommel before and he had still beaten them, so clearly numbers were not Rommel's problem.

No, the reality is Rommel put himself in a terrible position by failing to grasp the operational situation he was in. He is directly at fault for the German defeat.

As I've pointed out: Rommel wasn't defeated tactically.

What part of that don't you understand?

 

[Jredbaron96]

As I've pointed out: Rommel wasn't defeated tactically.

What part of that don't you understand?

It's almost like there's more to warfare than just tactics...

In fact, it's almost like tactical situations can be influenced and altered by operational factors and strategic considerations.

If only there were some way to divide warfare into levels, like the tactical, operational, and strategic level. Too bad no one, not even the Soviets, ever thought of some kind of operational level of war to focus on.

 

[Tigerace117]

I do not condone slavery or any exploitation of people. I have no clue what you are talking about.

I’ve repeatedly explained it to you, but I will do so again.

The Confederacy was fighting to keep other people enslaved. That was their cause. If they thought they could continue to enslave people inside the US they would have happily done so. Claiming they were fighting “to be free” is nonsensical.

 

[Tangmo]

Montgomery outnumbered Rommel 3:1. It's not like Montgomery had to face overwhelming odds.

Montgomery, at 2nd El Alamein outnumbered Rommel 3:1. Montgomery had 2 options: win, or surrender.

Montgomery was on offense. The time proven formula to enable the success of an offensive operation and campaign is a 3:1 advantage for the attacker. Montgomery had virtually everything he needed militarily. Rommel conversely didn't get what he needed, which was a miracle. You know less about battle plans, order of battle and engagement operations than a Girl Scout knows.

Still however the engineer Lee knew more than you do which is a low bar indeed. Lee was a career Army engineer if you don't know. Until the civil war Lee never commanded any unit of infantry, cavalry, artillery. Lee instead dug fortifications and built mounds to new heights. Going into the civil war Lee had the nick of King of Spades for it. Later in 1861 Lee was reassigned to be Davis' military assistant in Richmond due to his losses and inconclusive engagements that earned him a new nick, Granny Lee. Lee learned soon after that to rely on his much sharper and well versed generals. The more generals Lee lost KIA the more Lee, well, lost. Grant twisted the blade to finish off Lee for good.

 

[Tigerace117]

There is documentation of people using disease going back to 400BC and most likely a lot longer than that.

... Captain Simeon Ecuyer had bought time by sending smallpox-infected blankets and handkerchiefs to the Indians surrounding the fort -- an early example of biological warfare -- which started an epidemic among them. Amherst himself had encouraged this tactic in a letter to Ecuyer.

None if which occurred in North America

Nobody actually appears to know if the plan was ever actually implemented; merely encouraging something, even something despicable, is not the same as actually ordering it.

Not to mention the fact that it occurred before there was a United States in the first place.

 

[CMPancake]

It's almost like there's more to warfare than just tactics...

In fact, it's almost like tactical situations can be influenced and altered by operational factors and strategic considerations.

If only there were some way to divide warfare into levels, like the tactical, operational, and strategic level. Too bad no one, not even the Soviets, ever thought of some kind of operational level of war to focus on.

Apdst is the barely literate E-6 that complains about POGs all day despite not knowing where to put his name on his leave form or how to inspect his humvee.

 

[Jack Hays]

I'm sure a lot of people before Lincoln talked the talk.

He's the first post-Revolution President who actually walked the walk, though.

The Confederates were the first to secede. And Andrew Jackson was pretty strong in 1832.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Apdst is the barely literate E-6 that complains about POGs all day despite not knowing where to put his name on his leave form or how to inspect his humvee.

Barely literate people dont put over 90,000 posts up on a discussion forum over near a decade.

Where do you get your ideas?

 

[Tangmo]

It's almost like there's more to warfare than just tactics...

In fact, it's almost like tactical situations can be influenced and altered by operational factors and strategic considerations.

If only there were some way to divide warfare into levels, like the tactical, operational, and strategic level. Too bad no one, not even the Soviets, ever thought of some kind of operational level of war to focus on.

I'm a bit more direct but that's good too. Very good in fact.

Basic stuff delivered well sarcastically but with wit for max impact. LMAO.

Never mind that apdst will never get it. Others do thx.

 

[CMPancake]

Barely literate people dont put over 90,000 posts up on a discussion forum over near a decade.

Where do you get your ideas?

Barely literate people post here all the time. I mean, you're evidence to that being true.

 

[Atomic Kid]

But does it necessarily follow that Lincoln's primary reason for fighting the war was because he wanted an end to slavery?

Lincoln did not go in looking to start a war. He had war forced upon him. And as his House divided speech indicated. If it was going to be left up to him the institution slavery would come to an end in America. There is no way he was leave slavery intact after the war to have another opportunity to divide this nation ever again.