Trump: 'Robert E. Lee was a great general'

[Tigerace117]

Because they also have a right to be free. Its two separate issues.

Except they were explicitly fighting to keep other people from being free.

Your argument is incredibly hypocritical.

 

[Buzz62]

Sorry that actual history, as opposed to Lost Cause hagiography, offends you. :roll:

Whether it offends me or not, I entreat you to please continue.
The more people like you whine about history, the better the chances the Republicans hold both houses.
And I'd hate to think Congress was being lead by Pelosi and Feinstein...or even Chuck Shumer.
So ya...please continue.

 

[Jack Hays]

Notice the court didnt actually cite the constitution. That is a court opinion, not the law. Show me where in the actual law that states agreed to never be able to leave the union.

"The Constitution is what the judges say it is." --Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes

 

[Buzz62]

No, you will continue to spew myths and be outraged when people are no longer willing too tolerate the celebration of slavers.

Or you will emulate right wingers in the past who started shrieking about the Taliban and spewing the moronic fantasy that people are "trying to destroy memory of the civil war".

If removing statues to traitors and slavers is what upsets Republicans, that says one hell of a lot about Republicans.....none of it good.

yessss...good.
Please keep going.
Get really down and dirty.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

People as individuals may renounce their citizenship but that has no effect on the Union. States may leave the Union with the consent of the other states via the Constitutional amendment process.

As it should be.

In the case of the south clearly the majority wanted to no longer be a part of the union. That many people should have been allowed to secede. I clearly do not agree with slavery any more than I agree with exploiting illegal aliens today or immigrants of the past. However that many people have the right to govern themselves as they choose. Whether it is Russia or the USA the military should not be used to take away the right of the people to decide how to govern temselves and force them to remain a part of the current regime.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

OK, but the problem is what you want cannot work in this reality. And people like what an all powerful government does. Doesn't have to be as big as the U.S., see, Europe, but what I've seen is people want the "all powerful" government when it delivers exactly what they want, and nothing more, and what they want depends on what they need, which is unpredictable.

Maybe we'd be better off splitting off the former CSA and parts of the west and the NE etc. but that's not going to happen without a collapse of this government, which will no doubt happen at some point. History is clear enough on that point. And in the meantime, states seceding and taking with them all that this COUNTRY has invested in those areas by filing a piece of paper just isn't going to happen...

Clearly a lot of people are not happy with the current government. I know lots of people living in rural areas that are tired of being told how to live by populous cities. NYC tells the rest of the state of NY how they should live. You cannot compare LA to Idaho. A handful of crowded cities want to take away several states right to govern themselves as they see fit. The push by a few cities to run this country on mob rule and take away the voice of the minority is not right.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

I'm sorry you can't seem to comprehend the inherent hypocrisy in defending people for "wanting to govern themselves" only for them to make it very clear they had no intention of letting large numbers of their people do any such thing.

I will never agree that a government should force rule upon the people whether it is China, the USSR, or the USA.

 

[Tigerace117]

yessss...good.
Please keep going.
Get really down and dirty.

Yep, I will continue to debunk the usual Neo Confederate myths.

None of that is “dirty” but I get you need whatever fantasies you can find to avoid having to live in the real world.

 

[Tigerace117]

I will never agree that a government should force rule upon the people whether it is China, the USSR, or the USA.

So in other words your entire argument is laughably flawed because in those terms the Confederacy was far, far, far worse than the Union.

 

[JasperL]

Whether it offends me or not, I entreat you to please continue.
The more people like you whine about history, the better the chances the Republicans hold both houses.
And I'd hate to think Congress was being lead by Pelosi and Feinstein...or even Chuck Shumer.
So ya...please continue.

I'm not whining about history, I'm correcting Lost Cause BS.

And what you're saying is you or others will vote Republican to spite the liberals, who are correct on the history, which is incredibly stupid and to admit it is even more pathetic.

 

[JasperL]

Clearly a lot of people are not happy with the current government. I know lots of people living in rural areas that are tired of being told how to live by populous cities. NYC tells the rest of the state of NY how they should live. You cannot compare LA to Idaho. A handful of crowded cities want to take away several states right to govern themselves as they see fit. The push by a few cities to run this country on mob rule and take away the voice of the minority is not right.

OK but what's the option? I'm not happy with the current government! I don't think I'm entitled to be happy, actually. What I'm entitled to is a say like everyone else has a say, and if I'm unhappy the freedom to speak, lobby, protest, advocate with my neighbors and more for changes.

And why should people in rural areas have MORE say than the cities. If around here 1 million live in the metro area, and 60,000 live in the surrounding rural areas, should we still not have one person, one vote? Are farmers entitled to 20 votes and city dwellers 1? Should it be 10-1, or 5-1? How is that fair to city dwellers?

 

[JasperL]

I will never agree that a government should force rule upon the people whether it is China, the USSR, or the USA.

It's kind of the nature of the beast. Anarchy is the other option and that doesn't tend to work out too well. The good thing is we in the U.S. are free to leave and pick any other country on this big planet!

 

[Buzz62]

Yep, I will continue to debunk the usual Neo Confederate myths.

None of that is “dirty” but I get you need whatever fantasies you can find to avoid having to live in the real world.

Good. Keep going.

 

[Buzz62]

I'm not whining about history, I'm correcting Lost Cause BS.

And what you're saying is you or others will vote Republican to spite the liberals, who are correct on the history, which is incredibly stupid and to admit it is even more pathetic.

Yes...stupid and pathetic.
You too...keep going please.

 

[slick]

Now that you mention it you guyz lost in Vietnam too.

The Ten Years War was another lost cause.

Westmoreland was a general from South Carolina who, like Lee of Virginia also fought and lost in his own wilderness. We in contrast can do without these loser generals thx anyway.


And it wuz a hundred years later besides, so we know how you guyz must feel...

"Aggression from the North":
State Department White Paper on Vietnam
February 27, 1965
Aggression from North


Except you guyz got it twice, in two once in a century wars. Lee's problem was that he was an engineer for 32 years, not a strategist. Lieutenant-Colonel Lee dug ditches and raised mounds to new heights. A thousand times over. Napoleon he was not.

Lee spent much of his time in Mexico repairing roads and sweeping trails for Gen. Scott's army. Each Lee and Napoleon ended up much the same regardless, i.e., in exile. Napoleon initiated the era of modern war while Lee initiated his Fanboyz recently revived mass treason against the United States.

The one thing you guyz haven't said about Lee is that he was a chessmaster. That's because Lee played checkers tactics while the Union found itself some serious generals who knew the only way was to go forward aggressively to defeat the enemy, not to pamper 'em. Napoleonic Wars went on for 12 years while the War of Secession got cut off at the knees in four.

Lee was a great general that's a fact that few deny but he was no Napoleon.
He led the 'Army of Northern Virginia' towards Pennsylvania whuch had been consistantly victorious against superior numbers. After Frederickburg (Dec 1862) & Chancellorsville
(May 63) his soldiers had as solid a faith in their leader as any army that ever marched.
That alone elevates Lee to greatness.

So at the high watermark of the confedercy Lee ventured north with the largest army
he ever led an army that may have matched for the first time the north in numbers
& munitions but he did so without Thomas Jackson & without the knowledge that
JEB Stuart, who was known to run circles around Union cavaly, would
fail him for the first time at the most important battle.
Historians have called Chancellorsville 'Lee's perfect battle' & though he may have planned it, it was Jackson's impletation of the battle that won the day,
No Jackson no 'Lee's perfect battle'. At Gettysburg no Jackson no chance!

In the end Lee was a manager of a cause that from the beginning had little chance
of success and the success he did have was astonishing. If you know baseball history
the Yankees of 'Murderors Row' fame appeared to be unstoppable winning the World
series of 27 & 28 with ease & were predicted to do so for years to come until
Connie Mack garnered a quatet of Hallof Famers Grove, Foxx, Simmons & Cochrane who
out performed "murderers Row' winning the pennant from 29-31 then with his couffers barren yearly finally selling Foxx last and the A's finished last in the AL 7 of the next nine years and never recovered long after Mack retired. All managers need their key
players to succeed & Lee was minus Stuart & Jackson at Gettysburg and surely afterwards
his situation became dire!

If anyone can be compared to Napoleon tactically during the war it's not
Lee, it's not Grant, it's Forrest! Forrest had the uncanny ability, not
unlike that of Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, and other great
military leaders, to immediately read a battlefield, to read the disposition
of his opponents, and to know when his opponents had reached the breaking
point. Actually, Forrest duplicated many of the tactics of Bonaparte,
though he had not been trained in them, nor most likely did he know the name
of a single principle of war. Yet, few generals in history made better use of them.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

So in other words your entire argument is laughably flawed because in those terms the Confederacy was far, far, far worse than the Union.

It is not a matter of which was worse but a matter of people have the right to choose. What the USA did to the Native Americans could be considered genocide. We literally exterminated them. The treatment of the native Americans was right up there with slavery if not worse. It does not get much worse than genocide.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

OK but what's the option? I'm not happy with the current government! I don't think I'm entitled to be happy, actually. What I'm entitled to is a say like everyone else has a say, and if I'm unhappy the freedom to speak, lobby, protest, advocate with my neighbors and more for changes.

And why should people in rural areas have MORE say than the cities. If around here 1 million live in the metro area, and 60,000 live in the surrounding rural areas, should we still not have one person, one vote? Are farmers entitled to 20 votes and city dwellers 1? Should it be 10-1, or 5-1? How is that fair to city dwellers?

I think people in LA who have never stepped foot in Montana should not be deciding how the people of Montana should live. Yet we have federal laws that apply to both when it shouldn't. Laws needed to stop inner city violence across this country should not be forced on the rural community who do not have that particular problem.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

It's kind of the nature of the beast. Anarchy is the other option and that doesn't tend to work out too well. The good thing is we in the U.S. are free to leave and pick any other country on this big planet!

As individuals we can leave. But why should a million people in Montana leave their home because NYC is forcing stupid laws down their throat that apply to inner city gang violence. What if 99% of the people of Montana decide they would rather be a part of Canada. They believe that Canadian laws better fits their life style than NYC or LA law does. They like the health care situation along with many other things. Why are they being forced to stay a part of a union they do not wish to be a part of.

 

[JasperL]

I think people in LA who have never stepped foot in Montana should not be deciding how the people of Montana should live. Yet we have federal laws that apply to both when it shouldn't. Laws needed to stop inner city violence across this country should not be forced on the rural community who do not have that particular problem.

Not sure what to say - not sure what laws you're referring to. I'm sure Montana people don't have a problem getting guns, so how exactly are their freedoms being infringed on because of stuff in LA?

And, again, not sure what the option might be. There are rural parts of California. Should laws only apply to city people, but if you live on a farm, you don't have to abide by them? Which laws? All laws, some laws? If you live in the city, but travel to a farm, which laws apply?

 

[JasperL]

As individuals we can leave. But why should a million people in Montana leave their home because NYC is forcing stupid laws down their throat that apply to inner city gang violence. What if 99% of the people of Montana decide they would rather be a part of Canada. They believe that Canadian laws better fits their life style than NYC or LA law does. They like the health care situation along with many other things. Why are they being forced to stay a part of a union they do not wish to be a part of.

Not sure what to say. When 99% of the people in Montana decide they'd rather be part of another big government regime with higher taxes, socialized medicine, and so to jump from the frying pan into the fire, I guess we'll find out.

For the record, NYC can't force a damn thing. Montana has two Senators, same as NY. I'm not sure of any mechanism for the two Senators in NY to impose anything on the rest of the country that two Senators in Montana cannot also impose.

 

[Cattle Company]

I'm sure a thread like this TRIGGERS lots of gullible leftwinger propagandists to come in here and tell us some of their lies and BS stories. They never miss a chance to FOOL THE MASSES with more leftie BS.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Lee was a great general that's a fact that few deny but he was no Napoleon.
He led the 'Army of Northern Virginia' towards Pennsylvania whuch had been consistantly victorious against superior numbers. After Frederickburg (Dec 1862) & Chancellorsville
(May 63) his soldiers had as solid a faith in their leader as any army that ever marched.
That alone elevates Lee to greatness.

So at the high watermark of the confedercy Lee ventured north with the largest army
he ever led an army that may have matched for the first time the north in numbers
& munitions but he did so without Thomas Jackson & without the knowledge that
JEB Stuart, who was known to run circles around Union cavaly, would
fail him for the first time at the most important battle.
Historians have called Chancellorsville 'Lee's perfect battle'

If anyone can be compared to Napoleon tactically during the war it's not
Lee, it's not Grant, it's Forrest! Forrest had the uncanny ability, not
unlike that of Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, and other great
military leaders, to immediately read a battlefield, to read the disposition
of his opponents, and to know when his opponents had reached the breaking
point. Actually, Forrest duplicated many of the tactics of Bonaparte,
though he had not been trained in them, nor most likely did he know the name
of a single principle of war. Yet, few generals in history made better use of them.

LOL! How ridiculous. How can anyone have fought a "perfect battle" after losing over 20% of our men. And please. Napoleon, Grant and Lee commanded grand armies. Forrest commanded a small company. If you want to fawn over a murdering racist KKK grand wizard please go do it somewhere else.

 

[cpwill]

Robert E. Lee was a ****ing traitor who should have been hung in public.

Trump was in Ohio, and the clowns who cheered are laughably pig-ignorant of the fact that Lee and his army killed thousands of Ohioans.

**** Lee, **** his memory and **** treason.

Trump was praising native-son Grant for defeating Lee.


But hey. Why let mere facts get in the way of degrading others for the sin of disagreeing with you

 

[Jack Hays]

As it should be.

In the case of the south clearly the majority wanted to no longer be a part of the union. That many people should have been allowed to secede. I clearly do not agree with slavery any more than I agree with exploiting illegal aliens today or immigrants of the past. However that many people have the right to govern themselves as they choose. Whether it is Russia or the USA the military should not be used to take away the right of the people to decide how to govern temselves and force them to remain a part of the current regime.

Please see #747.

 

[marke]

Making the CSA Great Again. Sounds like 45 and his followers. Is anyone surprised by this?

I think that will not go well with the "Goddamn America" black panther black lives matter boys in the hood.