Trump clashes with Pelosi, Schumer on border security

[Perotista]

I'm not arguing that because of course that's the basic strategy. I've lived through many 'shutdowns' as well and read the news.



I don't know why you quoted me and ignored my point. I said they are needlessly disruptive, if they last long will harm lots of businesses around here, and all over the country, and aren't harmless stunts. I didn't argue they were doom and gloom, but maybe if you had a hotel and half cancelled at Christmas because the national park closes down, the $5,000 a night in cancelled rooms to your little business in an otherwise busy holiday season is "doom and gloom" for that business, if not the country.

What I'm trying to explain is the "no big deal" story you're telling about your own experience during a shutdown is most definitely NOT the experience of local businesses around here near the park. You can argue it's worth the trouble, or you don't give a damn about them because you got paid for the time off, but I can promise you the locals all around here will suffer ACTUAL harm that they'll never recover if the government is shut down and the national parks are, like they always have been, part of that shutdown. They don't get a do-over for the cancelled Christmas holiday traffic in mid January.

I buy the needless part 100%. If congress was doing their jobs, there wouldn't be a shutdown, period.

 

[Lutherf]

Your premise starts with the idea that a Great Wall of Trump is the best way, or even an effective way, to secure the border. I don't accept that premise because the data I've seen reject the premise. For starters, Trump envisions these massive concrete barriers, 10 feet deep, 30 feet high, or whatever it is he's dreamed up, and that will not work in lots of places because of problems with rain, runoff, etc. and in remote areas, which is much of the border, building such a structure would be immensely stupid and incredibly expensive.

Second, I've seen multiple accounts that a concrete barrier is a detriment to border patrol because they can't see what's going on on the other side.

Third, any wall or barrier is only as good as the people patrolling the area, because they can all be scaled with ladders or ropes or tunnels dug beneath them, so we'll need a forever commitment of people to patrol this shiny new wall. And if you have the people, you don't really need a wall.

But in a larger sense, I have no idea what this $5 billion will do. If it's to build out the Great Wall of Trump, he'll need about 10 of these appropriations, for starters, and ignoring maintenance, and he'll be long gone before he gets them. So what exactly will this $5B in funding do? A big part of the problem is Trump is a f'ing moron and doesn't know or care what it will do - it's a game chip and he wants to win the chip. That's it. If he got someone in his administration to tell us what it will fund and how this small part of the new Great Wall of Trump is essential to our national security and well being, when the other hundreds of miles of existing barriers didn't do any good, then I'm open to hearing their suggestions. In the meantime it appears based on the EVIDENCE to be a monument to Trump's ego and stupidity.

You're entirely incorrect about my premise. You can find my original comment in this thread here - https://www.debatepolitics.com/government-spending-and-debt/340078-trump-clashes-pelosi-schumer-border-security.html#post1069400230

My premise is that we need strong, effective border security before we start negotiating amnesty and other programs to bring foreign nationals in.

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

Any Junior High school student with a map and can see because of the Gulf Of Mexico a wall won't work.

Trump can see the storm that's heading right at him and his crime family. So it's time for him to throw some red meat to his racist, foaming at the mouth base....

Build a wall!!! Lock her up!!!!! Will be heard often over the next few months.

 

[Gunny2009]

More dopey talk.This So Called precious Government shuts down from 5 PM on a Friday till
9 AM on Monday every week.And during Holidays a few days longer.
Government employees get paid for following orders and/or pushing paper.
It's not like a Hospital or even a Fast Food joint.

Members of the military are government employees and they do not get paid as long as the shut down goes on and they have to still report to work

 

[JasperL]

I buy the needless part 100%. If congress was doing their jobs, there wouldn't be a shutdown, period.

You should also "buy" the actual harm a shutdown does to local businesses. It's real, and unlike you federal employees, they're not paid for the lost sales, lost rooms, meals, gift shop sales, etc. It's just gone.

I'm also not sure when it became an obligation of the Congress to give POTUS exactly what he wants. The GOP House tried to pass immigration this summer, including Trump's ask on border wall funding, and failed, so I'm not really sure who in Congress will be to blame. It's going to be hard to argue this is the democrats' fault when Trump can't even get his ask through the GOP House.

 

[vesper]

You're entirely incorrect about my premise. You can find my original comment in this thread here - https://www.debatepolitics.com/government-spending-and-debt/340078-trump-clashes-pelosi-schumer-border-security.html#post1069400230

My premise is that we need strong, effective border security before we start negotiating amnesty and other programs to bring foreign nationals in.

That is the logical approach and what the majority of Americans want. It's about national security first and foremost. States are hurting financially from the massive increase of illegals. The gangs have become a real problem also draining state funds dealing with them. The amount of very addictive drugs pouring across the border being sold so cheap is also creating havoc for states and another problem draining funds to try and deal with it. Our court systems are overloaded, a direct result from the problems mentioned above. Only an intellectually dishonest person would deny such things.

You know the Constitution gave Congress only a few specific duties. One was to secure our borders. It's time those yellow belly sap suckers do their constitutional duty.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Members of the military are government employees and they do not get paid as long as the shut down goes on and they have to still report to work

Not to mention many services are cut for Americans. Sure, Congress can pass special measures to protect certain people such as keeping the militar working, but that doesn't mean their families are fully protected from suffering a shutdown.

 

[JasperL]

You're entirely incorrect about my premise. You can find my original comment in this thread here - https://www.debatepolitics.com/government-spending-and-debt/340078-trump-clashes-pelosi-schumer-border-security.html#post1069400230

My premise is that we need strong, effective border security before we start negotiating amnesty and other programs to bring foreign nationals in.

OK but the only thing Trump cares about is the monument to himself, which is The Great Wall of Trump. I listened to the meeting - he mentioned nothing other than his precious wall. It's probably about the limit of what he can think critically about. And, "A big part of the problem is Trump is a f'ing moron and doesn't know or care what [the Wall] will do - it's a game chip and he wants to win the chip. That's it."

 

[uptower]

Does he have to act so childish? When will the chest-beating red hats ever tire of this buttclown's antics?

 

[Divine_Wind]

Yes, that is if Pelosi and Schumer can keep their mouths shut. This could easily turn into a Pelosi vs. Trump even with what you pointed out. Perhaps that is even Trump's and the GOP strategy, blame it on Pelosi which nationwide is even more disliked than Trump. Questions 46A and 46F.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/yoolhxrark/econTabReport.pdf

All Americans, Trump 43% Favorable, 52% unfavorable vs. Pelosi 30% favorable, 52% unfavorable
Independents only, Trump 41% favorable, 50% unfavorable vs Pelosi 21% favorable, 54% Unfavorable.

But you're absolutely correct, lame duck session, all Republican. Which now begs the question, why was Trump meeting with Schumer and Pelosi in the first place? All of a sudden, this makes no sense. Although senate wise, you still do have the 60 vote cloture rule.

Time will tell. My money is on the inherent honesty of Americans to do the right thing. Not the loudmouthed assclowns, but the Silent Majority.

 

[Cordelier]

Neither P nor S wanted to debate on TV. Why that might be transparent or something.

The President should have taken their advice. I have never ever seen a President so owned on live TV in the Oval Office like I saw this one today.

 

[vesper]

Members of the military are government employees and they do not get paid as long as the shut down goes on and they have to still report to work

Legislation was passed during Obama and a shutdown where military were paid during the government shutdown. However, most government civilians did not receive pay during the shutdown. Things like Social Security and Medicare checks continued.

 

[uptower]

Who are these 'ten terrorists' the president just claimed they caught?

 

[Divine_Wind]

Who are these 'ten terrorists' the president just claimed they caught?

Anyone with a criminal record? I truly don't know. Perhaps someone will provide some evidence to back up his claim.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Agreed he's a leverage player. The problem is that he can't transition from NY leverage to International leverage. He's like the HS prom king and star HS quarterback who can't translate that success into real world adulthood.

That's a great summary and assessment.

 

[Lutherf]

OK but the only thing Trump cares about is the monument to himself, which is The Great Wall of Trump. I listened to the meeting - he mentioned nothing other than his precious wall. It's probably about the limit of what he can think critically about. And, "A big part of the problem is Trump is a f'ing moron and doesn't know or care what [the Wall] will do - it's a game chip and he wants to win the chip. That's it."

Trump was pushing Chuck and Nancy to make a deal. They were pushing him to keep saying "government shutdown". Everyone got a chance to be in front of the camera and nobody is going to move off their position.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Trump was pushing Chuck and Nancy to make a deal. They were pushing him to keep saying "government shutdown". Everyone got a chance to be in front of the camera and nobody is going to move off their position.

Did Nancy and Chuck hold Donnie down and force him to say "government shutdown" or did Donnie do that all on his own? Is it because Donnie is stupid or because you think government shutdown over the "Wall" is what should be done?

 

[JasperL]

Trump was pushing Chuck and Nancy to make a deal. They were pushing him to keep saying "government shutdown". Everyone got a chance to be in front of the camera and nobody is going to move off their position.

Well, someone is going to have to move and I expect it will be Trump, because Pelosi is right, he can't get his ask through the GOP House - tried that this summer before the midterms and it failed.

 

[uptower]

Anyone with a criminal record? I truly don't know. Perhaps someone will provide some evidence to back up his claim.

I doubt they'll find any. He made it up on the spot.

Of course the red hat brigade will bend over backwards to explain that what he really meant was this or that and this handful of people who may or may not have been gang members were kinda sorta terrorists in a roundabout kinda way, or something of the sort.

Does any of us really have the time to sit through another round of half the internet trying to parse the latest asinine comment to come out of Trump's mouth? I'm done with that: he made it up, case dismissed.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Huge Trump loss today for those with eyes to see.

The Trump wall "... “It’s been very effective,” he said. “…If you look at San Diego, illegal traffic dropped 92 percent once the wall was up. El Paso, illegal traffic dropped 72 percent, then ultimately 95 percent once the wall was up. In Tucson, Arizona, illegal traffic dropped 92 percent. Yuma, it dropped illegal traffic 95 to 96 percent.”
Pelosi rejected that assertion, suggesting the president’s claims about the effectiveness of a border wall were overblown. San Diego, for instance, is by far the biggest gateway for illegal drugs, despite the fact that Trump previously praised the city for building a wall along the southern border. There is no wall in Tucson, Arizona because it is not on the border. ..."


https://thinkprogress.org/fact-chec...nt-shutdown-border-wall-funding-d2d18c8b57f5/

 

[Divine_Wind]

I doubt they'll find any. ...

Talk is cheap. Money walks, bull**** walks.

Care to bet a $10 donation to the forum in the winners name? I'd bet more but doubt you could afford it.

 

[Cordelier]

Trump was pushing Chuck and Nancy to make a deal. They were pushing him to keep saying "government shutdown". Everyone got a chance to be in front of the camera and nobody is going to move off their position.

Here's how I read it... Trump was holding a gun to his own head and threatening to pull the trigger unless they did what he said. They advised him not to do it in front of reporters.... but he did it anyway.

Here's a hint for you... Chuck Schumer has pretty much got the worst poker face on Capitol Hill. If he walks away from a meeting with a big smile on his face, it means he won.

 

[What if...?]

Last I checked Trump doesn't have the authority to cancel Christmas.

Basically. while we don't need 2k miles of physical wall we do need 2k miles of strong border security. We also need some real change to immigration policy and we need to beef up immigration courts. What Chuck and Nancy seem to be saying is the same stuff the open borders crowd always says..."let them in now and we'll give you what you want later". Well, that hasn't worked out ever so Trump is saying "my idea gets done first this time and we'll talk about yours later".

Sure seems fair and reasonable to me.

Until they seriously go after employers its just a dog and pony show.

And done properly, with big fines and rewards, it would cost little or nothing.

End the jobs you end the draw.

No jobs, no money to send home, might as well stay home, right?

 

[Lutherf]

Did Nancy and Chuck hold Donnie down and force him to say "government shutdown" or did Donnie do that all on his own? Is it because Donnie is stupid or because you think government shutdown over the "Wall" is what should be done?

The government doesn't shut down without a joint effort. Trump can't do it on his own and congress can't do it without Trump. Trump wants a guarantee on border security before he signs off on the new spending bill. Chuck and Nancy don't care about border security but do care about ****ing with Trump...which is what the meeting was all about for them.

 

[Greenbeard]

Here's a hint for you... Chuck Schumer has pretty much got the worst poker face on Capitol Hill. If he walks away from a meeting with a big smile on his face, it means he won.

Didn't even really need to wait until he walked away.