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Trump accuses Obama of wiretapping Trump Tower

Nobody has presented any evidence that Trump conspired with the Russians to fix the election.

Except for every intelligence organization in the free world of course. They all monitored the communications between the Trump campaign and Russian agents.
 
Does your patella ever scream out in pain when that little rubber hammer hits your kneecap causing those automatic responses?

The Russian issue and the Trump claim are two different things.

The "Russian issue" can only be an issue if the Obama Admin was investigating Trump and/or his campaign.
Obviously, if there was no investigation, then it pretty much knocks out the whole 'Trump and the Ruskies rigged the election' claim.
If there was an investigation, the scope and breadth of it is fair game to question.

Which is more plausable? That President Trump conspired to fix the elections? Or that wiretaps were ordered in pursuit of such an investigation?
Perhaps both are nonsense (but then from where did all that leaked stuff come from?).
 
The "Russian issue" can only be an issue if the Obama Admin was investigating Trump and/or his campaign.
Obviously, if there was no investigation, then it pretty much knocks out the whole 'Trump and the Ruskies rigged the election' claim.
If there was an investigation, the scope and breadth of it is fair game to question.

Which is more plausable? That President Trump conspired to fix the elections? Or that wiretaps were ordered in pursuit of such an investigation?
Perhaps both are nonsense (but then from where did all that leaked stuff come from?).

That makes no sense. We already have the collective findings of 17 intelligence and defense agencies that Russia did interfere in our election on behalf of Donald Trump who is on public record inviting them to get involved.
 
Except for every intelligence organization in the free world of course. They all monitored the communications between the Trump campaign and Russian agents.

Isn't this what Trump is talking about?
 
That makes no sense. We already have the collective findings of 17 intelligence and defense agencies that Russia did interfere in our election on behalf of Donald Trump who is on public record inviting them to get involved.

What we have is a conclusion that Russia hacked the Democrats. We don't know that the interference was on behalf of Donald Trump. Nobody was picking him to win, anyhow. Perhaps the Russian objective was to weaken President Clinton.
 
What we have is a conclusion that Russia hacked the Democrats. We don't know that the interference was on behalf of Donald Trump. Nobody was picking him to win, anyhow. Perhaps the Russian objective was to weaken President Clinton.

Whats the weather like on the banks of the Denial this season?
 
Isn't this what Trump is talking about?
If you read the headline
President busts Child-porn Ring
would you consider it to mean the same thing as
FBI Busts Child-porn ring
I wouldn't.
The first one implies presidential participation much greater than merely being president at the time of the bust

Trump said Obama tapped his phones.

Trump didn't say that the FBI tapped his phones.

Trump's statements meaning is that Obama had some significant hand in the matter.


Though, to be fair, the White House and others have come out to clarify that Trump was just asking "IF" Obama had tapped Trump's phones.
 
The "Russian issue" can only be an issue if the Obama Admin was investigating Trump and/or his campaign.
It seems like there could be an investigation of the Russians activities w/o investigating Trump.
To me anyway.
In my mind, the Russians and Trump are not so inextricably intertwined that one cannot investigate one without investigating the other.
But you see it differently.

You're saying that the Russians cannot be investigated w/o also investigating trump.
That doesn't seem right...to me.
 
If you read the headline
President busts Child-porn Ring
would you consider it to mean the same thing as
FBI Busts Child-porn ring
I wouldn't.
The first one implies presidential participation much greater than merely being president at the time of the bust

Trump said Obama tapped his phones.

Trump didn't say that the FBI tapped his phones.

Trump's statements meaning is that Obama had some significant hand in the matter.


Though, to be fair, the White House and others have come out to clarify that Trump was just asking "IF" Obama had tapped Trump's phones.

The Republican nominee for president is being investigating by the incumbent president who wants the GOP rival to win.
I mean, isn't this kind of a major undertaking? The potential for Some sort of massive political fallout existing? Is it really plausable that Obama role here was simply of disinterested spectator?
 
It seems like there could be an investigation of the Russians activities w/o investigating Trump.
To me anyway.
In my mind, the Russians and Trump are not so inextricably intertwined that one cannot investigate one without investigating the other.
But you see it differently.

You're saying that the Russians cannot be investigated w/o also investigating trump.
That doesn't seem right...to me.

The assumption is that Russia and Trump (or associates) conspired to throw the elections. All we really know is that Russia hacked the Democrats. We can infer that the objective was tip the scales toward old 45. Or we can infer that the objective was to cause chaos in American politics, or to weaken a president Clinton.

But if one wishes to conclude a Trump/Putin axis, then one has to conclude an investigation by the Obama Admin. And it's absurd to conclude President Ovama was not aware of it. Wiretapping doesn't seem implausible. Wiretapping the HQ of the GOP candidate for President? With the President's knowledge? It seems reasonable speculation in such circumstances.
 
The Republican nominee for president is being investigating by the incumbent president who wants the GOP rival to win.
You're taking the conclusion as a premise?

I mean, isn't this kind of a major undertaking?
I have no experience in this field.
I don't know how this sort of an undertaking compares with other FISA activities.
It could be more involved than any other investigation that's ever been conducted.
Or it could be straight forward business as usual, fair to middling sort of an undertaking.
Or, perhaps even a super simple one.

I've never worked counter intelligence against foreign intelligence agents.

The potential for Some sort of massive political fallout existing?
Certainly.

Is it really plausable that Obama role here was simply of disinterested spectator?
Is it plausible that Trump made another hyperbolic claim?

There's a fair bit of room between "disinterested spectator" and organizing / ordering / initiating the whole affair.

Given that the WH has declined to stand by the claims in the tweets, and given that the WH has 'clarified' the message from, "Obama did this!" to "IF this were to've happened, it'd be a big deal. Someone else should look into this," I am not certain that there is a "there" there.

It looks like Trump conflated some things in his mind and then posted hyperbolic comments.

I'd like to rule out that possibility before I start considering conspiracy theories.
 
And it's absurd to conclude President Ovama was not aware of it.
If the President were merely aware of an impending FBI raid of a child-porn ring, would you find this headline to be accurate or suck-up pandering:
"President busts child-porn ring"
Shouldn't that headline be "FBI busts child-porn ring"?

How much involvement would a President have to have before we'd find it accurate to give him credit for busting a child-porn ring?
For me, it'd have to be some pretty unusual and significant involvement.

If the President were merely aware that the FBI was trying to bust some sex-traffickers, that wouldn't be enough for me to start giving the President credit for the hard work the FBI guys.

Does that assessment of language and credit sound reasonable to you?

Wiretapping doesn't seem implausible. Wiretapping the HQ of the GOP candidate for President? With the President's knowledge? It seems reasonable speculation in such circumstances.

Lot's of things seem plausible.
We're both aware that plausible is not the same thing as "actually true".

Trump is The Boss of the executive branch.
He doesn't have to speculate—he can verify.
As Hayden said, perhaps Trump forgot that he was President.

The WH came out the very next day to 'clarify' that Trump was not actually accusing Obama of having Trump's phone tapped—Trump was just asking about IF it happened.
Huckabee Sanders, Spicer, and Nunes have all come out saying that the PotUS was not making an accusation. Trump actually was just asking about IF Obama had tapped Trump's phones.

The WH's inability to back the tweets, combined with the general lack of available evidence supporting the specific charge, combined with Trump's self declared strategy of making hyperbolic statements, make me want to rule out the possibility that Trump was speaking hyperbolically before I get ready to start buying into conspiracy theories.

Let's rule out the simpler explanations first before we go propagating unnecessary entities in our theory.
 
Another lie by Donald Duck Trump adding to his list of lies. He needs to step down and hand the job to Pence. He is the most dangerous man on the planet.
 
No. He cannot.

But yeah...y'all would love it if he went around declassifying stuff. LOL!! The media would have a field day with that, wouldn't they?

You can't declassify what doesn't exist.
 
The link which was offered didn't have a front page.


fwiw the White House doesn't think Trump's phones were tapped either

...Sean Spicer, told reporters, “There is no reason that we have to think the president is the target of any investigation whatsoever.

I offered two links that show the front page of the NYT.

"Did not target Trump specifically". These word games are on the same level of lying. No wonder the NYT is losing millions of dollars a month. It was the Trump campaign that was targeted probably not Trump personally. Your own source says that, and that is what I and everyone else was saying. This is like defending Obama by insisting there is no way Obama himself broke into Trump Tower and planted the phone taps.
 
I offered two links that show the front page of the NYT.
You probably did somewhere on this site.
Obviously, you don't intend to do so again.

"Did not target Trump specifically". These word games are on the same level of lying. No wonder the NYT is losing millions of dollars a month. It was the Trump campaign that was targeted probably not Trump personally. Your own source says that, and that is what I and everyone else was saying. This is like defending Obama by insisting there is no way Obama himself broke into Trump Tower and planted the phone taps.

Do you find these two headlines to be the same?

FBI busts child-porn ring

President busts child-porn ring


If a headline read "President busts child-porn ring", what would you think of the author if the President didn't do something like lead, organize or initiate the raid?
Would you think that the author of the article was a biased suck-up?
 
And if this was done legally with a warrant........ because there was probably cause presented to a court that there was a conspiracy afoot to hijack our very election by collision with a foreign power? How would that hit you?

Assume it was done legally, using warrants. So what? If intelligence officials in the Obama administration then selectively leaked classified information which had been obtained through this warranted electronic eavesdropping to journalists, who then used it to tar Mr. Trump and his close associates by innuendo, those officials violated federal felony statutes. How would that hit you? Either that is what happened, or all those stories about improper contacts with Russia by this or that Trump associate that have appeared in various news outlets for all these months, invariably citing unidentified sources in U.S. intelligence agencies as their source, have been lies.
 
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That made me think of truman.

We need a little more acceptance of personal responsibility.

'The buck stops here' - the meaning and origin of this phrase

If it happens under your watch you should accept responsibility..

Unless of course you have a george bush beanbag that wont fight back.

Imagine the captain of a U.S. warship, after it had negligently been allowed to run aground, trying to blame the navigators, engine crew, sonar operators, and so on, while claiming he was out of the loop. Something tells me that kind of bull would go nowhere fast with the captain's superior officers.
 
The link which was offered didn't have a front page.


fwiw the White House doesn't think Trump's phones were tapped either

...Sean Spicer, told reporters, “There is no reason that we have to think the president is the target of any investigation whatsoever.

No.

... “there is no reason to believe there is any type of investigation with respect to the Department of Justice.” The press secretary insisted he was not disavowing the president, who posted his tweets early on Saturday morning from Mar-a-Lago, his resort in Palm Beach, Fla.

“The tweet dealt with wiretaps,” Mr. Spicer said. “The other is an investigation. They are two separate issues.”
 
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Except for every intelligence organization in the free world of course. They all monitored the communications between the Trump campaign and Russian agents.

Thanks you for demonstrating how Obama wiretapped Trump.
 
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