The Stupidity of AR-15 Bans

[bluesmoke]

cast bullets in a high velocity rifle

You give me your evidence and I'll give you mine.

 

[aociswundumho]

Guns in the home cause more harm than DGU does good.

1. Guns in the home cause more harm than the good of 500,000 to 2,000,000 DGUs per year?

2. For deciding trade-offs like this, shouldn't the choice be up to the individual? About 300 kids drown in swimming pools every year. Once could state that the pleasure of owning a swimming pool isn't worth these lost lives thereby justifying a ban on pools. Do you find that argument to be convincing?

 

[TurtleDude]

You give me your evidence and I'll give you mine.

I have been reloading ammo for thirty years. even with a gas check (can you tell us what that is without googling it), cast bullets are not recommended in high velocity rifles. I am unaware of cast bullet cartridges commonly available for the 556 and I doubt any of the active shooters hand loaded cast bullets.

For the other shooters out there who understand ballistics-are you aware of people commonly using cast bullets for 556 rifles?

 

[TurtleDude]

1. Guns in the home cause more harm than the good of 500,000 to 2,000,000 DGUs per year?

2. For deciding trade-offs like this, shouldn't the choice be up to the individual? About 300 kids drown in swimming pools every year. Once could state that the pleasure of owning a swimming pool isn't worth these lost lives thereby justifying a ban on pools. Do you find that argument to be convincing?

He just is wrong. This is what happens when someone's gun control views are politically based and they try to pretend that their anti gun views are derived from evidence.

 

[bluesmoke]

1. Guns in the home cause more harm than the good of 500,000 to 2,000,000 DGUs per year?

2. For deciding trade-offs like this, shouldn't the choice be up to the individual? About 300 kids drown in swimming pools every year. Once could state that the pleasure of owning a swimming pool isn't worth these lost lives thereby justifying a ban on pools. Do you find that argument to be convincing?

See my post #106 Thread: 4 Points for No Assault Weapon Ban

Safety oriented states have safety requirements for pools, like fences, which have cut down on pool deaths considerably. In 2017 there were nearly 40,000 gun deaths in the US. Of them, 2,824 were children. That's a little bit more than 300 that die in swimming pools. A multitude more children play in the pool than with guns. If America had as much safety concern with guns as with pools, gun deaths would go down.

 

[aociswundumho]

See my post #106 Thread: 4 Points for No Assault Weapon Ban

From the link in that post:

"Simply put: for every time a gun in or around the home was used in self-defense, or in a legally justified shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides."

You have include all times guns are used for self-defense, not just in the home. Guns are used for self-defense in hundreds of different contexts, you can't just look at incidents which occur at the gun owner's residence. Again, the number of DGUs is between 500k and 2 million per year.

In 2017 there were nearly 40,000 gun deaths in the US. Of them, 2,824 were children. That's a little bit more than 300 that die in swimming pools. A multitude more children play in the pool than with guns.

But I could easily argue that 300 kids is 300 too many. Apparently you're not willing to ban swimming pools, so our disagreement comes down to how many deaths you are willing to accept. Again, I say it should be decided by the individual - whether it's pools or guns. Why do you believe that there's one completely arbitrary number of deaths (regarding guns or pools) that is "acceptable" and should be imposed on the entire population by law?

 

[bluesmoke]

I have been reloading ammo for thirty years. even with a gas check (can you tell us what that is without googling it), cast bullets are not recommended in high velocity rifles. I am unaware of cast bullet cartridges commonly available for the 556 and I doubt any of the active shooters hand loaded cast bullets.

For the other shooters out there who understand ballistics-are you aware of people commonly using cast bullets for 556 rifles?

Of the rifles I’ve read that have had no problem using properly sized and lubed hard-cast bullets, I don’t recall any being an AR-556. I’ve heard of AR-15 barrels with polygonal rifling to better release the gas when using hard-cast bullets that still have good accuracy, but not said to have been tested using hundreds of rounds. Just testing for accuracy.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Three thousand four hundred and fifty three people died from AR-15 fire in 2015.

Oh, no, wait... That's swimming pool drowning deaths.

The number of people killed by rifle fire is about 200 on an average year. That's about 3% of the total number of gun deaths.

Most gun deaths are due to handguns. More people are killed on an average Chicago weekend by handguns than are killed all year by rifles of all kinds, much less AR-15s.

Why is the focus on AR-15s? It's stupid. You don't see any gang bangers carrying AR-15s. People don't shoot themselves with AR-15s.

Banning AR-15s will do almost nothing aside from hurting law abiding owners.

Making light of gun deaths doesn't sound good but the facts are the facts. There are many more deadly things out there that nobody seems to worry about. It's politics. It's like flying, when a plane goes down its' big news but we know that statistically flying is the safest form of travel.
Outlawing AR15's doesn't offend me personnally other than to infrige on a person's 2nd amendment rights. However I don't see it being of any real help in curbing gun violence. A person who wants to commit a mass murder will find a weapon. The Virginia Tech shooting killed 32, the second most deadly and the shooter had two handguns. Several perpetrators have used automobiles. Home made bombs have been used. The answer is not gun control.
Schools are not well protected and that is the problem. We have 330+million folks living here and some are mentally ill, some are just evil, and many, many are great caring folks. We need to protect our children from the crazy and the evil not the average gun owner.

 

[bluesmoke]

doesn't matter-and trying to ban guns because a few of them are misused is moronic

You say "doesn't matter" because you have nothing to counter the facts I gave that refute what you say. You can't debate based on fact. You only debate based on unsupported belief that is then refuted by fact. You have a problem with fact.

 

[bluesmoke]

the author of Heller has stated on the record that semi auto rifles are protected by Heller. and your dishonest attempts to use a very rare form of murder to pretend that semi auto rifles are used in more than 2% of murders is patently obvious. The fact is, common use does not change because a few nutcases use the most popular rifle in the USA to commit crimes. The rifle does not become "unusually dangerous" merely because a few nutcases misuse them

Perhaps banning all semi-auto rifles is protected, but banning particular semi-autos may not be. Anyway, I don’t know of the quote you’re speaking of. Perhaps you can provide a link.

Please quote may saying “semi auto rifles are used in more than 2% of murders” or words to that effect.

A rifle can be unusually dangerous whether a “few nutcases misuse them” or not.

 

[TurtleDude]

You say "doesn't matter" because you have nothing to counter the facts I gave that refute what you say. You can't debate based on fact. You only debate based on unsupported belief that is then refuted by fact. You have a problem with fact.

there are no facts that support taking millions of guns away from millions of law abiding people

 

[TurtleDude]

Perhaps banning all semi-auto rifles is protected, but banning particular semi-autos may not be. Anyway, I don’t know of the quote you’re speaking of. Perhaps you can provide a link.

Please quote may saying “semi auto rifles are used in more than 2% of murders” or words to that effect.

A rifle can be unusually dangerous whether a “few nutcases misuse them” or not.

if a rifle is in common use and not unusually dangerous, it cannot be banned. There is nothing currently legal that is unusually dangerous.

and real machine guns that are hand portable aren't unusually dangerous either

 

[bluesmoke]

smart people understand that the law proves what the bannerrhoid movement wants.

and lets cut the crap-you want to ban guns not because you are worried about having a gun in your own home, rather you don't like how gun owners tend to vote

I never thought of that. Now that you've brought it up, nope. How about you? Is it not about the issue, but that you don't like how people who favor gun safety vote? I mean, it sounds like you're projecting.

 

[danielpalos]

We need better management regarding our militia. There should be a better way to become more organized.

 

[bluesmoke]

From the link in that post:

"Simply put: for every time a gun in or around the home was used in self-defense, or in a legally justified shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides."

You have include all times guns are used for self-defense, not just in the home. Guns are used for self-defense in hundreds of different contexts, you can't just look at incidents which occur at the gun owner's residence. Again, the number of DGUs is between 500k and 2 million per year.



But I could easily argue that 300 kids is 300 too many. Apparently you're not willing to ban swimming pools, so our disagreement comes down to how many deaths you are willing to accept. Again, I say it should be decided by the individual - whether it's pools or guns. Why do you believe that there's one completely arbitrary number of deaths (regarding guns or pools) that is "acceptable" and should be imposed on the entire population by law?

“You have include all times guns are used for self-defense, not just in the home. Guns are used for self-defense in hundreds of different contexts, you can't just look at incidents which occur at the gun owner's residence. Again, the number of DGUs is between 500k and 2 million per year.”

Excellent point. I totally missed that. The FBI figure of 67,740 DGU per yr. applies to the total number of DGU anywhere, not just the home. So, how many home DGU do you think there were in the home? That would justify the 14,723 children shot, incl 2,824 deaths?

“But I could easily argue that 300 kids is 300 too many. Apparently you're not willing to ban swimming pools, so our disagreement comes down to how many deaths you are willing to accept. Again, I say it should be decided by the individual - whether it's pools or guns. Why do you believe that there's one completely arbitrary number of deaths (regarding guns or pools) that is "acceptable" and should be imposed on the entire population by law?”

I’m not willing to ban all swimming pools. Just the ones that are unsafe. Same with guns that don’t comply with safety requirements. I trust you understand there are different safety needs and concerns between the two. It’s not like there are people purposely drowning kids in swimming pools. But there are kids accidentally shooting themselves, of which results in death, with guns in the home.

 

[zsu2357]

We need better management regarding our militia. There should be a better way to become more organized.

There is. Remove the anti gun atmosphere and hysteria of anything scary looking,and you have more people coming together "more organized" if you will.

 

[danielpalos]

There is. Remove the anti gun atmosphere and hysteria of anything scary looking,and you have more people coming together "more organized" if you will.

That is not what I am talking about.

this is the common law for the common defense:

The defense and protection of the state and of the United States is an obligation of all persons within the state. The legislature shall provide for the discharge of this obligation and for the maintenance and regulation of an organized militia.

 

[TurtleDude]

“You have include all times guns are used for self-defense, not just in the home. Guns are used for self-defense in hundreds of different contexts, you can't just look at incidents which occur at the gun owner's residence. Again, the number of DGUs is between 500k and 2 million per year.”

Excellent point. I totally missed that. The FBI figure of 67,740 DGU per yr. applies to the total number of DGU anywhere, not just the home. So, how many home DGU do you think there were in the home? That would justify the 14,723 children shot, incl 2,824 deaths?

“But I could easily argue that 300 kids is 300 too many. Apparently you're not willing to ban swimming pools, so our disagreement comes down to how many deaths you are willing to accept. Again, I say it should be decided by the individual - whether it's pools or guns. Why do you believe that there's one completely arbitrary number of deaths (regarding guns or pools) that is "acceptable" and should be imposed on the entire population by law?”

I’m not willing to ban all swimming pools. Just the ones that are unsafe. Same with guns that don’t comply with safety requirements. I trust you understand there are different safety needs and concerns between the two. It’s not like there are people purposely drowning kids in swimming pools. But there are kids accidentally shooting themselves, of which results in death, with guns in the home.

what makes a firearm unsafe in your learned opinion? almost no accidental shootings involve semi automatic rifles. Few murders involve those either