The "Muslim Problem": First hand experience?

[PeteEU]

How? Are you claiming the poll results dont match reality?

Polls rarely match reality. Polls only match the question asked and even then it is questionable since not everyone was asked. Yes there is maths behind it, but we both know polls can be quite wrong.

For example.. If you are asked. Do you think Muslims are a majority in prisons and do the most crime? Yes or no. I bet you, that most will think that it is true that they do, because that is how the media have been promoting for decades. Reality and facts are a whole other matter.

 

[Apocalypse]

The difficulties with integrating Muslim communities are mostly in France and Belgium, certainly not in the US.

 

[Auvergnat]

It seems most of these stories come out of France and Belgium, at least more so than elsewhere.

This is because we have more Muslims, and because they are mostly of Northern-African origin. In many cases this immigration is also older. Many countries will eventually experience the same problems, meanwhile we will experience ones even worse.

France has 8% of Muslims, Belgium 6%, UK 5%, Germany 5%, Spain 4%, USA 2%.

On many sides, though, France is actually better achieving than most. 42% of French Muslims feel French first, 13% in Germany, 7% in GB, 3% in Spain.

 

[PeteEU]

This is because we have more Muslims, and because they are mostly of Northern-African origin. In many cases this immigration is also older. Many countries will eventually experience the same problems, meanwhile we will experience ones even worse.

France has 8% of Muslims, Belgium 6%, UK 5%, Germany 5%, Spain 4%, USA 2%.

On many sides, though, France is actually better achieving than most. 42% of French Muslims feel French first, 13% in Germany, 7% in GB, 3% in Spain.

Immigration of so called Muslims to France really only started in strength in the 1960s, when France lost its colonies. That is 10 years before the immigration wave started for most other countries (not the UK) with first the Turks coming to Germany and Scandinavia and then later others.

 

[Manc Skipper]

This is because we have more Muslims, and because they are mostly of Northern-African origin. In many cases this immigration is also older. Many countries will eventually experience the same problems, meanwhile we will experience ones even worse.

France has 8% of Muslims, Belgium 6%, UK 5%, Germany 5%, Spain 4%, USA 2%.

On many sides, though, France is actually better achieving than most. 42% of French Muslims feel French first, 13% in Germany, 7% in GB, 3% in Spain.

So North Africans don't integrate?

 

[Auvergnat]

So North Africans don't integrate?

It always vary from one individual to the next. Assimilation is simply less frequent with Muslims, and even less with Northern-Africans (although all Muslim groups tend to pose problems). But inviting hordes of immigrants from the same group is always a bad idea anyway.

I emphasize the choice of assimilation rather than integration. Integration is not enough, a mere cohabitation leads to relentless long-term conflicts and territorial segregation and secession.

 

[nunoMS]

It always vary from one individual to the next. Assimilation is simply less frequent with Muslims, and even less with Northern-Africans (although all Muslim groups tend to pose problems). But inviting hordes of immigrants from the same group is always a bad idea anyway.

I emphasize the choice of assimilation rather than integration. Integration is not enough, a mere cohabitation leads to relentless long-term conflicts and territorial segregation and secession.

I think that integration is and was always the way to go you get to keep your "beliefs" (your identity essentially) and respect the new culture your in (voluntarily), assimilation to me implies things that would make me "run".

 

[VanceMack]

I would say you need to better define 'the Muslim problem'.

There is a minority but not insignificant number of Muslims that are fundamentalist. I'm not taking about radical terrorist fundamentalists...Just fundamentalists that adhere to strict interpretations of Islam. We are talking entire countries of people. There are large numbers of fundamentalists that believe in conquest and that Sharia law should rule the world. There are also not insignificant numbers of extremist fundamentalist that are more than willing to engage in terror attacks. It is called being radicalized, but the tip from fundamentalist to radical fundamentalist is not all that great, as was seen recently in Ohio and San Bernardino California.So...what is 'the Muslim problem'? Denying fundamentalist Islam is a concern? Fundamentalist Islamists kill their own children for disobedience. They kill gay people for being gay. They deny women rights. They kill rape victims in the name of honor. Is THAT the Muslim problem? Is it a problem that you cant really tell the difference between an Islamist and a radical Islamist until they have set off a pressure cooker bomb in Boston?

I think there are LOTS of problems with 'Muslims'. So what are you defining as THE Muslim problem?

 

[Auvergnat]

I think there are LOTS of problems with 'Muslims'. So what are you defining as THE Muslim problem?

This is a good point, I was uncomfortable with the statement, as if "the" problem was delinquency and assaults. I suppose this is convenient for him because he may link delinquency to poverty, then poverty to discrimination, and finally blame non-Muslims for Muslims' behavior.

But the main Muslim problem imo is the very rise of an Arabo-Muslim population in our countries: we do not want this retrograde cultural influence, and this identity cohabitation is a precariously unstable state of things and an endless source of conflicts. And it will become a major threat if their demographics do not stabilize.

 

[Auvergnat]

I think that integration is and was always the way to go you get to keep your "beliefs" (your identity essentially) and respect the new culture your in (voluntarily), assimilation to me implies things that would make me "run".

Yes, integration means that you can keep your identity and this is exactly why it can only end up with endless conflicts if millions do this, and blood bathes if this persists and grows.

Assimilation means that you, or rather your children, abandon your barbarian religion and foreign identity, and behave like regular citizens of the host country. This is the only realistic way to make it work. There is no room for Islam in non-Islamic cultures, although the problem exists with all identities to (very) different extents.

 

[GhostlyJoe]

We have a large Muslim population in my city. I've never had a negative encounter. I recently stopped by a nearby mosque that was having sort of a bake sale. It was nice; the food was amazing; everyone was friendly. We've had no religious attacks. The local imam has joined with priests and ministers on charity initiatives. Multiculturalism has worked fairly well here, as it does in most American cities.

Now, if I were to date a Muslim woman, would I expect some backlash? Absolutely. I would expect disapproval from many in her community and in my own family. That's life. I encountered some cultural discrimination with my Hispanic girlfriend (when you're the only white guy at the Barrio Latino festival, you get some weirdness from some people). When people assimilate, cultural traditions start to fade or get altered. That's a threat to some traditionalists. The more culturally homogeneous a community, the more dogmatic its likely to be.

So as I see it there is no "Muslim problem," just factionalism and intolerance and suspicion and human nature to greater and lesser degrees.

Also, I love schawarma.

 

[nunoMS]

Yes, integration means that you can keep your identity and this is exactly why it can only end up with endless conflicts if millions do this, and blood bathes if this persists and grows.

Assimilation means that you, or rather your children, abandon your barbarian religion and foreign identity, and behave like regular citizens of the host country. This is the only realistic way to make it work. There is no room for Islam in non-Islamic cultures, although the problem exists with all identities to (very) different extents.

Thus why i mentioned respect the local culture. I am not found of religion (any of them) but if you choose to believe in something just for the sake of it and it doesn't clash with your surroundings, why wont local society accept that?
Is kind of same of football fans, if you can tolerate football fans other then your team why not extend the courtesy to other "stuff".

 

[Auvergnat]

Thus why i mentioned respect the local culture. I am not found of religion (any of them) but if you choose to believe in something just for the sake of it and it doesn't clash with your surroundings, why wont local society accept that?

You are considering the immediate individual POV, I am considering the long-term population POV.

Millions and then tens of millions of people with another identity than the dominant one are bound to clash with this one, now and in the future decades and centuries, as long as they will have to cohabit and find agreements. Conflicts are inevitable on the long-term, whether the mater is political issues, power issues or economical issues.

Multi-identity situations are temporary unstable states. Eventually they lead to assimilation, secession or extermination. Aside of small minorities or very compatible identities.


We tolerated Islam as long as it was an immigrant's thing who kept a low profile. But now the children and grand-children of those immigrants want to make Islam a legitimate part of France, with a strong public presence, political activism, legal and cultural transformations and a distinct identity. The identity conflicts have started and we are reacting against Muslims: there is no room for Islam in France.

 

[nunoMS]

You are considering the immediate individual POV, I am considering the long-term population POV.

Millions and then tens of millions of people with another identity than the dominant one are bound to clash with this one, now and in the future decades and centuries, as long as they will have to cohabit and find agreements. Conflicts are inevitable on the long-term, whether the mater is political issues, power issues or economical issues.

Multi-identity situations are temporary unstable states. Eventually they lead to assimilation, secession or extermination. Aside of small minorities or very compatible identities.

That is true if the society is made of barbarians, if you had a modern education to have grown past that you will see my point. Just look at cities like NY.

 

[Auvergnat]

That is true if the society is made of barbarians, if you had a modern education to have grown past that you will see my point. Just look at cities like NY.

People do not tolerate to see their environment being rewritten. Never, neither yesterday nor tomorrow, regardless of education.

NY's identity is precisely to be cosmopolitan under a western framework, so nothing is being rewritten as long as the American liberalism dominates. This framework is an inclusive edge case by nature, but its inclusiveness is conditioned to the existence of nearby homogeneous American environments and of the American domination of the place. Most of Americans who live there were born elsewhere and will die elsewhere. In more American places.

If tomorrow a strong Muslim presence settles in NY and tries to bend the NY identity in the direction of Islam, the same problems will occur. There is no room for Islam in NY or America.

 

[nunoMS]

NY's identity is precisely to be cosmopolitan, this is an edge case.

In regular situations places have their own identity. When many immigrants come who want to change this identity, violence ensues. Always, everywhere, yesterday and tomorrow, regardless of education levels. People do not tolerate to see their environment being rewritten.

And if tomorrow a strong Muslim presence settles in NY and tries to bend the NY identity in the direction of Islam, the same problems will occur. NY is a cosmopolitanism in a western framework. There is no room for Islam in America.

Thus why i mentioned: if you move to a new place you should respect the local culture, but you don't need to lose your identity over it. America is and always have been a melting pot, there is room for pretty much everything.^^

 

[Auvergnat]

Thus why i mentioned: if you move to a new place you should respect the local culture, but you don't need to lose your identity over it. America is and always have been a melting pot, there is room for pretty much everything.^^

I had rewritten my previous message. But America is America: if Muslims try to change America, Muslims will get shot. There is no room for Islam in America.

 

[jet57]

There is a lot of talk about Muslims allegedly taking over quarters of entire cities. Gangs, no-go areas, and so on.

People say they feel "no longer at home" in their home country, because Muslims allegedly do not just exist side to side with them, but actually display threatening behavior -- harassing or insulting Europeans/Westeners, using their high numbers to intimidate them.


I'm curious: How many of you have experienced this first hand? How many have just read about it? And if it's the latter, where have you read or heard about it?


As for myself, all these terrible things you read and hear of, I've never experienced myself. I live in Berlin, and here are plenty Muslims. There are quarters that even have a predominantly Muslim "look" -- if you count shops run by people with roots in a Muslim country, in this case Turkish. I've often been in these quarters, even at night.

I currently do a formation, and in my school, about a third of the students has roots in a Muslim country. Out of 30 students, 8 young women wear a headscarf.

Yet my impression is: There is no problem. I've never encountered hostile behavior by Muslim immigrants which I wouldn't expect from natives too under certain conditions, save for a certain rudeness occasionally (in these regards, not different from the rudeness many natives display occasionally). The headscarf girls in the school don't separate themselves, but join talks with all other students, share their plans and dreams, or talk about the latest movie or PS4 game they played.

I asked some of them if they're wearing the scarf out of religious conviction, or tradition. Many didn't even know a real answer, said they aren't really very religious, said it was just for the sake of their relatives. One said it's both, and when we talked about Islam, I found she's not radical at all -- she expressed regret that Mouhanad Khorchide, a liberal modernist German-Muslim theologician, meets so much hostility from "conservatives".

Two or three Turkish immigrant women do not wear a scarf -- they said they identify as "laicists".

No "parallel culture" in that class, as far as I can see.

What does bother me, are bunches of adolescent male Muslim immigrants, who are annoying, because they're loud, obnoxious and disrespectful on the street -- but as I said above, no real threat. Either you change the side of the street when you see them, or when you do meet them, telling them firmly to just cut the crap will usually do the trick. I've never encountered them becoming a real threat.


There were two more serious incidents in my environment, involving a Muslim perpetrator. But it was possible in these cases to attach individual blame, rather than basing it on ethnicity.


So what about you? Have you first hand experience with "the Muslim problem"?

Number 1; your titles sends a bit of memory lane chill down my spine...

Number 2; almost every major city in America has had a China town in it for some time and Mao never had any authority in those towns. It's all ultra right-wing paranoia.

 

[coldjoint]

Thus why i mentioned: if you move to a new place you should respect the local culture, but you don't need to lose your identity over it. America is and always have been a melting pot, there is room for pretty much everything.^^

Why would America want a group that resorts to violence when criticized or questioned? A group that intimidates rather than listens. You would think after 9/11 and other terror attacks Muslims would be introspective about the foundation of their religion instead of saying they are victims of a very rational fear caused by the doctrine of Islam. I only see one serious reformer, and as I have said before, not one mosque will back him.

Don't we deserve an answer of why they(Muslims) will not.

 

[nunoMS]

I had rewritten my previous message. But America is America: if Muslims try to change America, Muslims will get shot. There is no room for Islam in America.

Thats a very narrow view.

No they won't get shot, that would be silly, just think about it.

Again there is room for pretty much everything in America and there always has been.

 

[ataraxia]

So what about you? Have you first hand experience with "the Muslim problem"?

I live in an ethnically very diverse part of the US- a suburb of a large city. And among other ethnicities/religions, there are a fair number of Muslims here. My son's best friend in kindergarten was a little Somali boy form a Muslim family- and they became very good friends. They went to different schools in first grade and parted ways. But their friendship has endured, and they are now young teenagers, and still stay in touch by phone/texting. This last weekend I took the two of them to dinner and to see the new Harry Potter spinoff movie. They loved it. They were laughing and comparing schools, and their friendship was as close as ever.

I really haven't seen anything I would consider a "Muslim problem". Yes, there are women who walk around with a hijab here and there. And there is a Mosque down the street from where we live- I don't even notice it much, except on Fridays there is a little more traffic in front of it. Yes, there are some occasional rude and overly demanding customers who I think may be Muslim. But we have rude overly-demanding customers from all sorts of backgrounds- Koreans, Hispanics, etc.... There are also really nice, friendly people we run into who I believe are Muslim. IOW, they are just like everybody else. There is good and bad in everybody.

It's interesting that the parts of the country which seem to be most in fear of "The Muslim Problem" are the ones with the least exposure to them. Around these parts, in contrast, we actually are starting to develop a fear of "Trump Supporters"! Nobody has seen too many of them 'round these parts, but based on what we see of them on TV, they are loud, rude, with irrational and incorrigible anger and hatred, aggressive, in-your-face, dangerously ignorant and uneducated, white rural Americans living in the middle of nowhere, where their culture basically seems limited to a McDonald's and a Dairy Queen on the street corner. Ooooooh, now those folks look and sound scary!!!!

 

[coldjoint]

I live in an ethnically diverse part of the US- a suburb of a large city. And among others, there are a fair number of Muslims here. My son's best friend in kindergarten was a little Somali boy- and they became very good friends. They went to different schools in first grade and parted ways. But their friendship has endured, and they are now young teenagers, and still stay in touch by phone. This last weekend I took the two of them to dinner and to see the new Harry Potter spinoff movie. They were laughing and comparing schools, and their friendship was as close as ever.

I really haven't seen anything I would consider a "Muslim problem". Yes, there are women who walk around with a hijab here and there. And there is a Mosque down the street from where we live- I don't even notice it much, except on Fridays there is a little more traffic in front of it. Yes, there are some occasional rude and overly demanding customers who I think may be Muslim. But we have rude overly-demanding customers from all sorts of backgrounds- Koreans, Hispanics, etc.... There are also really nice, friendly people we run into who I believe are Muslim. IOW, they are just like everybody else. There is good and bad in everybody.

It's interesting that the parts of the country which seem to be most in fear of "The Muslim Problem" are the ones with the least exposure to them. Around these parts, in contrast, we actually are starting to develop a fear of "Trump Supporters"- loud, rude, hateful, angry, aggressive, in-your-face, dangerously ignorant and uneducated, white rural Americans living in the middle of nowhere, where their culture basically starts and ends with a McDonald's and a Dairy Queen on the street corner. Ooooooh, that's scary!!!!

When you lump all Trump supporters into a group like that do not expect anyone to listen to you about another group of people. The way you view other Americans is why Trump won.

 

[nunoMS]

Why would America want a group that resorts to violence when criticized or questioned? A group that intimidates rather than listens. You would think after 9/11 and other terror attacks Muslims would be introspective about the foundation of their religion instead of saying they are victims of a very rational fear caused by the doctrine of Islam. I only see one serious reformer, and as I have said before, not one mosque will back him.

Don't we deserve an answer of why they(Muslims) will not.

Just like anywhere else if a group of people be it Muslim people or hawks fans or who ever is your NFL team doesn't respect local culture it will be out casted but if they do they just be looked like "different".

9/11 is about extremists is not about Muslims people, just like catholics trowing people at a lake and if they drown they are innocent and if they survive and come to surface they are evil witches...

What matters is how new comers can adjust or not to a new society.

 

[coldjoint]

Just like anywhere else if a group of people be it Muslim people or hawks fans or who ever is your NFL team doesn't respect local culture it will be out casted but if they do they just be looked like "different".

9/11 is about extremists is not about Muslims people, just like catholics trowing people at a lake and if they drown they are innocent and if they survive and come to surface they are evil witches...

What matters is how new comers can adjust or not to a new society.

Fundamental Islam is extreme. My question was about reform and introspection. More excuses are not the answer.

 

[nunoMS]

Fundamental Islam is extreme.

yes, that is true but is also true to everything else, catholics can be also fundamental, there is no shortage of examples of that.

My point is respect people if they respect you, doesn't matter their background or their beliefs.