The Electoral College: Purpose, Problems, Alternatives

[Rich2018]

Laughable, I live in Illinois, I have read about Lincoln over and over in my life as well as all sorts of Lincoln lore from the state. Lincoln lived to cure the injustices of others, not himself.

True. Totally true - he got his excuses in early by claiming the system was rigged before the election he never expected to win.

We're talking about Trump.

 

[haymarket]

We still retain the republican form of government if we have the President elected by popular election.

 

[Rich2018]

We still retain the republican form of government if we have the President elected by popular election.

IMO the biggest mistake the founders made with the Constitution was not to split the offices of head of state and the head of the government.
The head of state should be politically neutral and be above party politics,

 

[haymarket]

IMO the biggest mistake the founders made with the Constitution was not to split the offices of head of state and the head of the government.
The head of state should be politically neutral and be above party politics,

And by what mechanism would those two positions be acquired?

 

[Rich2018]

And by what mechanism would those two positions be acquired?

The president by popular vote, the head of government by votes in the House (as the current speaker is elected)


This system is used by pretty much all Western republics

France has a hybrid with the head of state AND the head of government having areas to preside over, which is unworkable at times.

 

[haymarket]

The president by popular vote, the head of government by votes in the House (as the current speaker is elected)


This system is used by pretty much all Western republics

France has a hybrid with the head of state AND the head of government having areas to preside over, which is unworkable at times.

Thanks for the quick response. Now you have given me something to think about.

And that is a good thing.

 

[Rich2018]

Thanks for the quick response. Now you have given me something to think about.

And that is a good thing.

I'm glad, check out the constitution of Germany which basically is the West German constitution that was drafted under the direction of the USA.

 

[Jay59]

None, since that was not a democracy that failed - it never really started The only real democracy that failed was the Wiemar Republic
France 1789 was a Republic as was the Wiemar Republic. Did the USA ever think to abandon the republic as a form of government due to its poor record ? (ancient Athens was a republic too wasn't it, as was the Roman republic that transformed into the Roman Empire with a emperor)

You keep saying republic. What is your point?

And the legislature and the army and eventually Totally Give Edward Snowden a pardon and have his testimony in a congressional public inquiry

The army came first. Hitler had to build it up.

Snowden is small change. If that chills you, Crossfire Hurricane ought to freeze you solid.

There we part, the EC is a hindrance to democracy IMO.

Based on your other comments, you should embrace it.

 

[Jay59]

For Hitler he joined a party called The National Socialist and German Workers Party which was so named as to make it more attractive sounding in an era where there was a distict possibily that Germany could become communist.
Hitler was never a socialist though, he was motivated by racial and nationalist goals.

Stalin took over the CPSU from Lenin but like Hitler he was motivated by Russian nationalism...he wanted to turn the USSR into the next Russian empire
When congratulated by a British diplomat for capturing Berlin, his response was "Alexander (in 1814) made it to the Seine"
Communism was just a tool to unite all the different peoples for him.

You make a valid point. Neither Stalin nor Hitler remained faithful to their ideology. That said, they both promoted a socialist agenda on their way up.

 

[Vadinho]

Its intended to be. The founders feared a Democracy because Democracies tend to disenfranchise the minority. Simple majorities make up a Democracy and the government then does whatever the Democracy majority wants, from taking property to capital punishment. Republics have rules that protect individual rights, Democracies don't.

No. Countries are created with a body of laws, these laws protect the citizens from actions or actors that break the law. We are a nation of laws not men or women. The idea that a majority could force an illegal policy or decision upon the minority is not a case against democracy, it is a case for weak separation of powers. It is patently absurd to discount the courts and our tri-partite government in any discussion about the EC.

 

[Rich2018]

You keep saying republic. What is your point?

The point, when asked, right wing Americans keep saying they're in a Republic and Democracy is akin to "mob rule"
They cite ancient Athens as a reason the USA should reject democracy even though it happened in a very basic form 2,500 years ago like it's somehow relevant today.

But they won't cite the ancient Athenian, Roman, or less ancient French and Wiemar republics for rejecting that as a form of government.

...the army came first. Hitler had to build it up...

It wasn't very big early on...Hitler made it bigger and generals loved him for it. They even changed their oath of allegiance to him and not Germany.

...Snowden is small change. If that chills you, Crossfire Hurricane ought to freeze you solid....

Then let's hear it.

Nevertheless I want Snowden pardoned and to testify publicly.

...based on your other comments, you should embrace it.

How so

How can you support a system that allows a candidate with a minority of support to beat one with a majority of support ?

 

[Rich2018]

You make a valid point. Neither Stalin nor Hitler remained faithful to their ideology. That said, they both promoted a socialist agenda on their way up.

I think they had to.

When in power, Hitler let huge corporations exist provided they were loyal. Like Krupp and BMW. In fact politics students term Nazism the corporate state.

Stalin kept the USSR communist but it did seem to be working for a while - he died in 1952.

 

[OpportunityCost]

No. Countries are created with a body of laws, these laws protect the citizens from actions or actors that break the law. We are a nation of laws not men or women. The idea that a majority could force an illegal policy or decision upon the minority is not a case against democracy, it is a case for weak separation of powers. It is patently absurd to discount the courts and our tri-partite government in any discussion about the EC.

No, it isn't. Its happened locally in several cases if you cared to learn about them.

 

[OpportunityCost]

True. Totally true - he got his excuses in early by claiming the system was rigged before the election he never expected to win.

We're talking about Trump.

No, sir, we are talking elections. If you want to marginalize this thread to only Trump's election, you are missing the point.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Where do you get that crap from ?

Why would the founders fear democracy - how is hindering democracy a good thing.

If anything the founder should fear a republic is the Athenian, roman and French republics were any guide (not to mention the Wiemar Republic)

Because Democracies that are unrestrained become tyrannies in very short order.

 

[Rich2018]

Because Democracies that are unrestrained become tyrannies in very short order.

When ?

When has a democracy ever turned into a tyranny ? Only one democracy has failed in modern times and that was the Wiemar Republic

You could add the French 1st Republic to that list but really it never got going as a true democracy.

Blinkered, right wing American might cite the Athenian democracy as one that failed but its political system didn't. Athenian democracy was a direct form (if it really happened at all) and it was a Republic too, as was the failed Roman Republic that turned into an empire.

I'm curious why you're mistrustful of democracy but so forgiving of republics with their failed history turning into tyrannies ?

 

[James972]

Either of your examples were Americans in the USA. Your post thus fails.

people are people whether American European or Asian . They supported Hitler Stalin Mao and will do it again if liberals get their way. Do you understand?

 

[James972]

In this country, that does not exist as the minority have specific rights to prevent tyranny.

The original Constutution gave them rights but modern liberals oppose the original Constitution and originalist judges. We all have to support the near genocidal liberal welfare programs, pay Social Security, and support socialist health care. What are minority rights???? A liberal will have no idea on earth what he is talking about.

 

[James972]

Because it was the 1700's and the educational level was very low

THe Founders were among the greatest geniuses in human history. They knew human nature. They knew modern 20th Century human beings would support HItler Stalin Mao FDR Sanders AOC so they did not give us direct democracy or mob liberal rule.

 

[James972]

When Republicans are bit in the ass by the EC the way Democrats have been five different times , they will shift their position and change.

and when they are helped by the EC they will maintain their position. Isn't learning fun??

 

[James972]

Again calling Nazis liberals...and why don't you like green?

liberals support the libNazi Green New Deal Depression, and the lib Nazi school to prison pipeline. They spied for Hitler and Stalin. Maybe the more general term, Fascist, is more accurate?

 

[James972]

Maybe because he[Madison] lived in the pre-industrial, agrarian society of the 18th century when they still believed in witches.

of course the treasonous liberal hates the Founders though they created the greatest country in human history by far based on freedom from liberal govt..

 

[James972]

Again calling Nazis liberals...and why don't you like green?
So if a country had a small government it wouldn't be tyrannical ?

the smaller the govt the smaller the tyranny of which it is capable. 1+1=2 see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance.

 

[James972]

In case you haven't noticed, tyrannies don't happen in democracies.

Madison gave us a Republic, after reading history, because liberal mob rule democracies had turn into tyrannies.


Jefferson: (warning us against liberals)

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

 

[James972]

Exactly... it is a rigged system I think would be the words.

nothing rigged about being protected from mob rule democracy. Hopefully in 2020 it will protect us from the LibNazi Green New Deal!!