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Should NATO disband?

Fledermaus said:
You were blatantly incorrect when you stated : Goddard never made a functional rocket.

Try admitting you are wrong when you are clearly wrong.

As to "no space rocket".

Do you have some crystal ball that shows you what might have been?



I know. But I still work on it.

It is so hard when the "small people" can't admit when they **** up.
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Goddards rockets where mere toys. Von Braun was the real game.
 
Rostocker said:
Goddards rockets where mere toys. Von Braun was the real game.
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Intentional ignorance noted.

Had it not been for Goddard there would have been no V2 because Germany would have been kaput long before the first terror weapon would have been launched.

But feel free to bask in your ignorance.
 
Fledermaus said:
Intentional ignorance noted.

Had it not been for Goddard there would have been no V2 because Germany would have been kaput long before the first terror weapon would have been launched.

But feel free to bask in your ignorance.
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Wrong again.

The V was just one weapn series. Others were quite effective as well.

As for "kaputt". Germany had worse. The 30 year war for example. So far we always recovered. we have a saying here. What doesnt kill you, makes you stronger.
 
Rostocker said:
Wrong again.

The V was just one weapn series. Others were quite effective as well.

As for "kaputt". Germany had worse. The 30 year war for example. So far we always recovered. we have a saying here. What doesnt kill you, makes you stronger.
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V1, V2

Quite the series.

Please share the other series weapons that were successful.

V1 - Could be taken down by interceptors.

V2 - Couldn't be intercepted. But carried a small payload. Large cost. Little return.

Maybe there is a W series of weapons? An X series? A Y series.

Please share all the wonderful weapons....

Me-163 Rocket powered interceptor? Extremely short range and endurance and tended to explode on landing.

Me-262 Jet? No that showed promise. Until bungling by Hitler delayed production. Had the war dragged on US and British jets would have faced it.

Had there been no Goddard there would have been no V2.
 
Rostocker said:
No nation will give up its largest trading partner and european security. Its thag easy.
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are you referring to Germany? What "security" does Germany provide for Europe? You are one that constantly talks up Germany's tiny military.
 
Dayton3 said:
are you referring to Germany? What "security" does Germany provide for Europe? You are one that constantly talks up Germany's tiny military.
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Germany is Europe. Its that easy, the center of the continent. The economical, scientific and cultural heart. The european nation that is connected to the entire world.

Your former president Reagan said it quite well. When he wants to adress europe, he calls the chancellor.
 
Rostocker said:
Germany is Europe. Its that easy, the center of the continent. The economical, scientific and cultural heart. The european nation that is connected to the entire world.

Your former president Reagan said it quite well. When he wants to adress europe, he calls the chancellor.
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"Germany is Europe" concept died 1944-1945…
 
Rostocker said:
Emperor Otto Germany always will dominate europe because it has largest population, strongest economy. Its gravitational center.
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I was thinking of the Austrian paperhanger.

And post Napoleon you were neither largest population nor strongest economy. A collection of minor states in search of a nation.

And much of your time as "Holy Roman Empire" was much the same.
 
Fledermaus said:
I was thinking of the Austrian paperhanger.

And post Napoleon you were neither largest population nor strongest economy. A collection of minor states in search of a nation.

And much of your time as "Holy Roman Empire" was much the same.
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Germans were Always largest population
 
swing_voter said:
Europe seems strong enough to handle the Russian and Middle East situation.


We could cut our defense spending down from 3.4% to 2% and use that money for social programs.
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I doubt they really could but several are nuke capable so there is that.

We both know that wont happen.
 
Dayton3 said:
A nation with a history like Germany possessing WMDs is a threat.

United Kingdom and France even with nuclear weapons are not a threat.
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France and United Kingdom have a horrible history of enslavement, opression and genocide.

Germany had 12 bad years, UK and France ahd hundreds of horrible years. India to this days has not recovered from the genocidal rule of the british. But thats not the point.

We live in 2020 and things have changed. Germany today is seen as the most constructive and positive power in the world.

Germany replaces US as country with best international image | News | DW | 17.11.2017


When NATO dispands, Germany will need to go nuclear. Its that easy. For 75 years Germany lived under the american nuclear umbrella. This Umbrella is fading away now and the option to share nukes with UK and France is not there.

France explicit said that Germany needs its own stockpile and cant outsource the responsibility (there goes your bull**** argument that France would acat against a german bomb).

As this article states:

Why Germany Is Talking About Getting Its Own Nuclear Weapons

Having Decided It Can’t Rely On America, Germany Debates Acquiring Its Own Nuclear Weapons

You can read the debate in english here:

Why Germany Should Get the Bomb | The National Interest

Even the former polish foreign minister said: He is less worried about a german bomb than about the absence of a german bomb"

I might remind you that Poland doesnt think too high about us for historic reasons but they know strategy.

As USA is taken out of Europe, the French and UK are to weak to secure european security, simply because they lack the economic power. The key to Europe is Germany.

With NATO dissolution a german bomb is a strategic necesserity. Its that simple.

Germany stockpiled 2500 tons of Plutonium for exactly that reason and only because we were under teh american umbrella we did never obtain the bomb.

No matter how much we prop up our conventional military, we could never defend ourself against a nuclear power. Even small and weak countries like North Korea or Iran could force us to accept whatever they order.

And that Dayton is exactly the reason why even your own defense experts like Mattis say a german bomb is the only alternative for NATO.

To explain it: Imagine Iran has its first primitive nukes and a Germany without the NATO nuclear umbrella. The Ayatollah could threaten to nuke german cities and blackmail us to give them technology and trade.

You know what that means? Withon months the Ayatollah would have german technology which would allow him now to make his nukes mobile on a global scale.

Its the reason why polands foreign minister said he fears the absence of a german bomb much more than a german bomb.

German strategists know that, and thats the reason why we chose nuclear latency. We can build any nuclear device and even you admit that even so we disagree in the way how fast. I say in weeks and you say in months.

So you admit that german authorities have this scenario always in their mind

So the death of NATO is the birth of the german bomb.

There are american thinktanks who even say thats better for you guys since you save money
 
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Rostocker said:
With NATO dissolution a german bomb is a strategic necesserity. Its that simple.
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When exactly is NATO supposed to dissolve? Give us a year or range of years.

And you haven't really thought about what the end of NATO would mean for Germany have you? France, Poland, all the rest of them without NATO and not being able to rely on the U.S. will expect Germany to be the leader. And thus they will expect Germany to spend money and provide troops to support all European military interests around the world.

What if Iran decides to close the Strait of Hormuz? If you can't count on the U.S. to reopen it and take out the Iranians what are you going to do? Beg the Japanese and Chinese to do it? Do you really want China controlling a vital sea lane? Get the British and French to send their only aircraft carriers and handful of ships to handle it? At the very least those nations are going to expecting Germany to cough up tens of billions (perhaps hundreds of billions) to fund operations there.

After all, that is what a "leading nation" does.
 
Dayton3 said:
When exactly is NATO supposed to dissolve? Give us a year or range of years.

And you haven't really thought about what the end of NATO would mean for Germany have you? France, Poland, all the rest of them without NATO and not being able to rely on the U.S. will expect Germany to be the leader. And thus they will expect Germany to spend money and provide troops to support all European military interests around the world.

What if Iran decides to close the Strait of Hormuz? If you can't count on the U.S. to reopen it and take out the Iranians what are you going to do? Beg the Japanese and Chinese to do it? Do you really want China controlling a vital sea lane? Get the British and French to send their only aircraft carriers and handful of ships to handle it? At the very least those nations are going to expecting Germany to cough up tens of billions (perhaps hundreds of billions) to fund operations there.

After all, that is what a "leading nation" does.
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We are well aware of that. The article states it as well. When NATO ends Germany will need its own nuclear weapons. France agrees on that and Poland as well. We will also need to prop up our non nuclear defense.

NATO is in its death throws and would not survive another 4 Trump years. When its dead, its dead.

What if Iran decides to close the strait of hormuz?

We dont depend on the strait of hormuz dayton, its their seaway and they share it with arab nations. Its up to Saudi Arabia to deal with that.

I dont want my country to be world police
 
Rostocker said:
I dont want my country to be world police
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Then you'd better pray the U.S. is still the leading world power. Because I guarantee you aren't going to like it if the Chinese or someone else takes up that role.
 
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