Should Intersexed people be forced into a gender/sex at birth?

[HumblePi]

So I've been thinking about this a little because I do defend transgenderism with evidence that it could be that at least some transgendered people are in fact intersexed, but should not have to share this.

So the question is, should parents be encouraged to choose a sex for an intersexed child, and therefore a gender for them in those early years (that may change), at birth?



I like how she talks about allowing intersexed people being allowed to choose intersexed or some variant to recognize themselves as who they feel they are. It is only our own problems with accepting things outside the norm which leads us to seeing them as having an issue that we need to fix, to choose one of the "norm".

I will say that I do not think that it is just Christians who reject those that are intersexed, or at least the idea that they should be able to live life as both. I do believe that this is something that is more a cultural thing and part of human nature that simply should be examined and changed through conversations and reasoning as to why we should see choosing a sex for intersexed children as wrong.

As I have pointed out, she points out here, intersexed people represent 1-2% of the population. As a comparison, those with natural red hair make up about 1-2% of the population.

And this leads to a second question, should parents be prevented from choosing a sex/gender for their child at birth?

No matter how much you try, you do not have the capability of changing the sex of your child. Sexuality comes from the brain, not the genitals.

 

[OldFatGuy]

There is no requirement of any particular way to dress your child. It is all a matter of social pressure and/or preference, not law. Not too long ago, girls were not allowed to wear pants, and before that, you could find a picture of a US President in a dress and bonnet as a baby.

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You really don't know much about children. Most cultures kept young children wrapped in gowns, for hygienic purposes. Swaddling and gowns. Many still do so.

 

[CLAX1911]

You keep presenting this as a parent using their child to rebel. Most of the time, the children ask to wear such clothing. It has little at all to do with the parent.

it has everything to do with the parent. I remember asking for Snickers bars for dinner my parents didn't say well that's what he wants and just give it to me. You have to give a **** about your kid.

What is ****ed up is your jaded assumptions that a child, even of 3 years old, shouldn't be allowed to choose their own clothes.

there's a lot of things I wouldn't let a three year old choose. If I was the parent of a three year old my job wouldn't be to give them whatever they wanted.

Also, since it would be near impossible to tell if a child was a girl or boy at that age,

so if you had a child you wouldn't know if they were a boy or girl if they're wearing a dress? It seems like something I would probably know before the child was even born.

how would putting a 3 year old boy in a dress be rebelling against society since few people would know? Who would know?

you are the one who brought up a social pressure if you didn't want to talk about it don't bring it up.

If you see a woman with a child in a dress, how would you know what their genitals or DNA is?

this is still trash.

Obviously my talking about a child that we know the sex of.

 

[Dick Tornado]

And this leads to a second question, should parents be prevented from choosing a sex/gender for their child at birth?

We are dealing with an issue that is rare beyond description.

I would say to best understand what gender a person who is truly intersexed is, you should allow them to complete puberty and see what hormonal changes take place.

To "choose" at birth ignores the future changes and will of the individual.

How many of us would be willing to take a 50 - 50 chance on a life long choice.

It isn't like you are picking if you will be right or left handed.

It is picking a gender identity which dictates how society effectively deals with and treats you.

It covers how a person feels with the identity and if it matches.

I'm a male who has always had male feelings, but I have a friend who struggled for most of her life.

She was born a male but felt female all of her life.

She became one of the happiest people I know when she embraced and changed her gender.

I have often wondered what it would be like to have such a constant overwhelming internal battle.

 

[Lisa]

Stupid comment. It's even dumber the second time you make it. Yeah and using your child to rebel against society is extremely self centered and ****ed in the head.

this stupidity couldn't be less relevant.

Do you have a problem that it is the child's decision to wear a skirt or a dress. It isn't the parents forcing their child to do this because that would be child abuse. It is the child saying that this is why I am and this is how I want to express myself.

Do you think that a child must be reminded of their gender and forced to obey it or society will unravel if gender lines are blurred or questioned?

 

[roguenuke]

I'm not the one making a specious argument. I've read a few of the papers which made such claims, all hypothetical unproved nonsense. No respected biologist made any such claims, and those respected pointed out they were dealing with examples of freaks, never using the term intersexual, a fantasy.

You have yet to provide any support whatsoever for your stance.

 

[roguenuke]

We are dealing with an issue that is rare beyond description.

I would say to best understand what gender a person who is truly intersexed is, you should allow them to complete puberty and see what hormonal changes take place.

To "choose" at birth ignores the future changes and will of the individual.

How many of us would be willing to take a 50 - 50 chance on a life long choice.

It isn't like you are picking if you will be right or left handed.

It is picking a gender identity which dictates how society effectively deals with and treats you.

No it isn't. 1-3% of the population is intersexed, the same percentage as people with red hair.

 

[Phys251]

Dop you have a problem that it is the child's decision to wear a skirt or a dress. It isn't the parents forcing their child to do this because that would be child abuse. It is the child saying that this is why I am and this is how I want to express myself.

Do you think that a child must be reminded of their gender and forced to obey it or society will unravel if gender lines are blurred or questioned?

LGBTQs: We're getting physically attacked, harassed, and killed for just being ourselves.
Supporters of fascism: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
LGBTQs: Hate speech from Trump and Pence makes this worse.
Supporters of fascism: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
LGBTQs: Tens of thousands of Americans die every year from gun violence.
Supporters of fascism: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
LGBTQs: It's OK for a boy to wear a dress.
Supporters of fascism:

Spoiler

:soap :2mad: :alert

 

[roguenuke]

it has everything to do with the parent. I remember asking for Snickers bars for dinner my parents didn't say well that's what he wants and just give it to me. You have to give a **** about your kid.

there's a lot of things I wouldn't let a three year old choose. If I was the parent of a three year old my job wouldn't be to give them whatever they wanted.

so if you had a child you wouldn't know if they were a boy or girl if they're wearing a dress? It seems like something I would probably know before the child was even born.

you are the one who brought up a social pressure if you didn't want to talk about it don't bring it up.

this is still trash.

Obviously my talking about a child that we know the sex of.

And so you never were allowed to have a Snickers Bar? Even if you bought it with your money or your parents flat out said "choose any candy you want"?

Of course you wouldn't, because you obviously have some issues with going outside of gender norms. That doesn't mean others should be prevented from going outside those gender norms just because you have issues.

This is not about someone and their child. But if their child is intersexed, from birth, then it is quite possible that they would allow their child to be intersexed, not identifying specifically as either. How would you know which they were closest to if you weren't their parent?

Most children you come into contact with you would not know the sex of, but rather be guessing. And, as the woman in this video pointed out, if a parent chose to raise their child as "intersexed" there is little chance you would know which sex the child was "closest" to.

 

[roguenuke]

You really don't know much about children. Most cultures kept young children wrapped in gowns, for hygienic purposes. Swaddling and gowns. Many still do so.

Wrong again. This was simply a picture, not everyday. It was an open dress, sort of like a baptismal gown.

I happen to be a mother of two, and helped raise many, many other children, since I came from a Catholic family.

 

[Lisa]

LGBTQs: We're getting physically attacked, harassed, and killed for just being ourselves.
Supporters of fascism: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
LGBTQs: Hate speech from Trump and Pence makes this worse.
Supporters of fascism: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
LGBTQs: Tens of thousands of Americans die every year from gun violence.
Supporters of fascism: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
LGBTQs: It's OK for a boy to wear a dress.
Supporters of fascism:

Spoiler

:soap :2mad: :alert

Appearanty I am supposed to be at home in a dress, heels, and pearls like June Cleaver, making dinner for a guy and accepting that I am his property instead of being educated in a STEM career and working in a very male-dominated environment.

I will never obey that 1950s patriarchial nonsense.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Oh, yes. Absolutely. I'm for them choosing their own sex/gender, or remaining intersexed. It should be the person's choice, not their parents (at least not if surgeries and hormones are necessary to make someone a certain sex) or even a doctor.

Having undetermined or intersexed should be available when it comes to a birth certificate, the same as red is available as a hair color choice on licenses (same prevalence).

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Progress is being made:

Intersex Birth Certificate Issued in Colorado Is State First | them.

More states allowing gender-neutral birth certificates, IDs - UPI.com

 

[Phys251]

Appearnety I am supposed to be at home in a dress, heels, and pearls like June Cleaver, making dinner for a guy and accepting that I am his property then being educated in a STEM career and working in a very male-dominated environment.

I will never obey that 1950s patriarchial nonsense.

What supporters of fascism choose not to understand is that for all genders, it should be a choice. To stay home and cook, to go out in the world and seek a prosperous career, or to do both, should be a choice open to everyone.

 

[roguenuke]

No matter how much you try, you do not have the capability of changing the sex of your child. Sexuality comes from the brain, not the genitals.

This isn't sexuality.

I do agree that sexuality cannot be changed (I think it can change, or at least sexual orientation, how we view our actual sexuality, can change), but this isn't about sexuality, which is only related to sex in how we identify someone's sexuality.

This is about intersexed people, who I believe we also cannot change. I think the problem is in how many cannot seem to grasp that there are many things that affect how we view our gender, our sex. And no other deviance from the norm is as confusing to those who don't want to deviate from a binary interpretation of sex than intersex situations because they naturally form that way, and we know from history/research that trying to force someone into a gender that doesn't match them, even if try to force a sex upon them, can cause serious issues with their mental health. The story in the opening of the video is a great example of this.

 

[Lisa]

What supporters of fascism choose not to understand is that for all genders, it should be a choice. To stay home and cook, to go out in the world and seek a prosperous career, or to do both, should be a choice open to everyone.

I have to wonder what is missing in their life that they feel the need to control how others how they can live. I used to think that my undergrad psych courses were just liberal arts fluff but as I get older being able to understand peoples drives is very important.

 

[CLAX1911]

Do you have a problem that it is the child's decision to wear a skirt or a dress.

I can remember at six years old wanting to wear my swim team uniform, (a brief bathing suit) to school. Should I have been allowed to?

It isn't the parents forcing their child to do this because that would be child abuse. It is the child saying that this is why I am and this is how I want to express myself.

So if the child wants to express homily by eating cookies for dinner, we should let them?

Do you think that a child must be reminded of their gender

yes. I had a nice that I looked after for a couple of years when she was four she had some gum stuck in her hair I've had to cut it short she kept talking about when she was a girl. I told her she's still a girl she just has short hair.

Kids don't understand all this nonsense you want them to understand. To a child sex is based on a haircut

and forced to obey it or society will unravel if gender lines are blurred or questioned?

No just to accept a reality otherwise you're purposefully making them diluted to show how woke you are I find that extremely self-centered.

 

[roguenuke]

I can remember at six years old wanting to wear my swim team uniform, (a brief bathing suit) to school. Should I have been allowed to?

So if the child wants to express homily by eating cookies for dinner, we should let them?

yes. I had a nice that I looked after for a couple of years when she was four she had some gum stuck in her hair I've had to cut it short she kept talking about when she was a girl. I told her she's still a girl she just has short hair.

Kids don't understand all this nonsense you want them to understand. To a child sex is based on a haircut


No just to accept a reality otherwise you're purposefully making them diluted to show how woke you are I find that extremely self-centered.

Would wearing your swimsuit to school be against the rules at the school? Pretty sure it would in most cases (although I got to wear a swimsuit during school for almost a quarter of the day my sophomore year, every day, for a whole semester).

Your entire argument tries to compare denying things that are actually bad for a child (junk food for dinner) or prevented for all children (wearing a swimsuit to school) to something that is allowed for some children (girls) but you claim is bad for others (boys) based on nothing but your feelings, opinions.

Children are not the ones normally confused by a boy with long hair or a girl with short hair. That normally is adults. Children are much more accepting of variances than adults are, especially if they are presented in a positive way, without bias or negativity from adults in their lives.

Reality is that intersexed children are born as both sexes, in some way. That is reality. It is only intervention (unnecessary, medically speaking, in most cases) by doctors and/or parents that lead to them having to become one or the other.

 

[Lisa]

I can remember at six years old wanting to wear my swim team uniform, (a brief bathing suit) to school. Should I have been allowed to?

So if the child wants to express homily by eating cookies for dinner, we should let them?

these are both faulty analogies. Did girls get to wear their bathing suits to school? How is it unhealthy to wear a dress to school, unlike eating cookies for dinner.

yes. I had a nice that I looked after for a couple of years when she was four she had some gum stuck in her hair I've had to cut it short she kept talking about when she was a girl. I told her she's still a girl she just has short hair.

Kids don't understand all this nonsense you want them to understand. To a child sex is based on a haircut

No it isn't about sex.

No just to accept a reality otherwise you're purposefully making them diluted to show how woke you are I find that extremely self-centered.

Ive never believed in being woke. Why can't a child be permitted to be different?

 

[CLAX1911]

And so you never were allowed to have a Snickers Bar? Even if you bought it with your money or your parents flat out said "choose any candy you want"?

Of course you wouldn't, because you obviously have some issues with going outside of gender norms. That doesn't mean others should be prevented from going outside those gender norms just because you have issues.

This is not about someone and their child. But if their child is intersexed, from birth, then it is quite possible that they would allow their child to be intersexed, not identifying specifically as either. How would you know which they were closest to if you weren't their parent?

Most children you come into contact with you would not know the sex of, but rather be guessing. And, as the woman in this video pointed out, if a parent chose to raise their child as "intersexed" there is little chance you would know which sex the child was "closest" to.

I don't remember ever having a Snickers bar for dinner. Since that's what I said I'll stick to my analogy.

Your faux psychoanalysis of me is just mental masturbation for you it's not argumentative. You have no clue what I take issue with. So when you say I have issues with something because you suck at arguing you are just attacking my person. That's called an ad hominem.

Argue your position don't worry about me.

This discussion isn't about intersexed people. If you want to talk about that go talk about that if you want to butt into conversation and try and bully everyone into talkin about what you want them to I am going to resist. I don't take kindly to domineering arrogant people.

Your last statement is still profoundly stupid. it was stupid the first time you said it will be stupid every subsequent time you said it.

 

[CLAX1911]

these are both faulty analogies. Did girls get to wear their bathing suits to school?

actually it's an apt analogy that's what I want to wear. Why should not be allowed to express myself? Are you suggesting that there is some sort of clothing that is inappropriate for a child to wear in certain settings? And that adults must tell them no?

How is it unhealthy to wear a dress to school, unlike eating cookies for dinner.

it's psychological. If you make them into transgender people by confusing them about their gender you are damning them to a condition that has the absolute highest suicide rate.

Why would you want to **** your kid over like that?

No it isn't about sex.

the term girl and boy describe sex.

Ive never believed in being woke. Why can't a child be permitted to be different?

so a little boy in must dress like a princess in order to be different? There's nothing else? That seems kind of bigoted to me.

 

[Dick Tornado]

No it isn't. 1-3% of the population is intersexed, the same percentage as people with red hair.

That depends on your interpterion of what it means to be intersexed.

Many reproductive scientist, doctors an researchers hold a tighter definition and they use data that 2 out of 10,000 births are true intersexed births.

How common is intersex? | Leonard Sax MD PhD | Physician, Psychologist, and Author

That would be considered a rare occurrence.

Red haired (ginger) people are freaks, (LOL) I know because I married one and we just celebrated our 33rd anniversary on the 16th.

I tend to feel that reproductive doctors Interpretations of how many intersexed people are born into society is likely based on sound data and investigation.

With that said I want it known that intersexed individuals should be allowed to choose for themselves on which gender they want to be identified with, even if it is none of the above....

 

[AProudLefty]

Can you clarify this a bit? I can kinda figure out which of my questions you were answering (I believe the last one) just from your posts, but wanted to make sure I wasn't wrong in this.

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Yep. Last one.

 

[AProudLefty]

It is what it is, lies, deceit, refusal to be honest.

Is that an admission?

 

[Rich2018]

Appearanty I am supposed to be at home in a dress, heels, and pearls like June Cleaver, making dinner for a guy and accepting that I am his property instead of being educated in a STEM career and working in a very male-dominated environment.

I will never obey that 1950s patriarchial nonsense.

Yeah I bet like my family, the boy got the cowboy outfit for Christmas and the girl got the nurse's uniform.

 

[Rich2018]

Oh, yes. Absolutely. I'm for them choosing their own sex/gender, or remaining intersexed. It should be the person's choice, not their parents (at least not if surgeries and hormones are necessary to make someone a certain sex) or even a doctor.

Having undetermined or intersexed should be available when it comes to a birth certificate, the same as red is available as a hair color choice on licenses (same prevalence).

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Yes, Id go with that, a person's gender is left as n/a unless they specifically wish the declare.