Should Intersexed people be forced into a gender/sex at birth?

[CLAX1911]

If it's their choice to believe in wacky things, that's on them.

so if an identity is based on a belief such as the belief that you are a male trapped in a female's body then that's on whoever believes that?

But feeling religious?

I never said anything about feelings that is your mischaracterization I will hold off on calling it a strawman because I don't know if it was intentional.

I was talking specifically about identity.

You choose to identify as

so identity is a choice? Or is it just the identities you cherry-pick based on whatever metric if you're using any that are choices?

Keep in mind I've been consistent and that identity is choice. You are saying it is for some people but not for others.

a Christian and that can change at any time because thats a meme, with little part in biology.

so can a trans person. Have you ever heard of gender fluidity? Or is that just all nonsense?

If you want to talk about acting the part and identify as an opposite sex, sure you can do that. Actors do that all the time. There's something called method acting.

Well if you identify as a tall person but you're five foot one your identity is wrong. That's actually called being diluted.

 

[CLAX1911]

There is a difference between ridiculing people and ridiculing their beliefs.

such as the belief that they're the opposite sex then what they were born as?

 

[CLAX1911]

Do you know what a Fundie is?

I know how I would define it but that seems to vary from person to person.

What gives you the right to make fun of them but other people don't have the right to make fun of transgender people?

Ok why do they ridicule transgender and gay people?

No but I don't ridicule fundamentalists or Muslims either. Mostly I try to understand them and what makes them think the way they do. You're not going to get anywhere if you tell them how stupid they are.

 

[roguenuke]

such as the belief that they're the opposite sex then what they were born as?

Gender and sex are different. And several transgenders have ended up being the opposite sex genetically. Others were born intersexed, so their belief would not be wrong. They were simply presented to the public as a sex chosen by their parents rather than what they are, intersexed.

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[CLAX1911]

That is what I'm asking you since you seem to believe that we can only raise them like that rather than as both or as neither.

well if you're asking me I would say that is your raising make child you would tell them that one day they'll grow up to be a man and girl will grow up to be a woman. What that means is your role in reproduction. If you are a woman you can become pregnant and that means you'll have a child if your man the person that gets the woman pregnant.

And that's it. That's what it means.

 

[bomberfox]

I thought gender and sex were different things. How are parents choosing gender for their child they're only choosing the sex of their child?

Unless gender and sex are connected

They still are different. I dont know what to say on this subject maybe just leave as is and choose gender neutral names.

 

[roguenuke]

well if you're asking me I would say that is your raising make child you would tell them that one day they'll grow up to be a man and girl will grow up to be a woman. What that means is your role in reproduction. If you are a woman you can become pregnant and that means you'll have a child if your man the person that gets the woman pregnant.

And that's it. That's what it means.

Not all women can become pregnant. In fact, in many cases, many intersexed people can't become pregnant or get a woman pregnant (does depend on how they are situated). So then for most intersexed children, even if you chose their sex for them at birth they likely wouldn't learn they would be having or making babies.

So what else is there that isnt already adaptively taught to intersexed people or that can't be taught to someone being raised as neither male or female? Which bathroom to use? Probably not something that can't be accommodated.

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[AProudLefty]

so if an identity is based on a belief such as the belief that you are a male trapped in a female's body then that's on whoever believes that?

You're conflating religious beliefs with gender identity. Let me ask you a question: what would an intersexed person "believe".

I never said anything about feelings that is your mischaracterization I will hold off on calling it a strawman because I don't know if it was intentional.

I was talking specifically about identity.

You're confused again. Understandable. You mentioned a study of religious vs non religious people. The study has nothing to do with specific religions, in your case Christianity. Believing, experiencing something, feeling something there are more and such is a part of the study. Believing specific things come AFTER and are due on whims based on info and situations.

so identity is a choice? Or is it just the identities you cherry-pick based on whatever metric if you're using any that are choices?

Again I base it on science and common sense.

Keep in mind I've been consistent and that identity is choice. You are saying it is for some people but not for others.

I've state no such thing.

Well if you identify as a tall person but you're five foot one your identity is wrong. That's actually called being diluted.

I am not aware of any one claiming as such. However people have had leg lengthing surgeries or wear shoe lifts.

 

[AProudLefty]

I know how I would define it but that seems to vary from person to person.

What gives you the right to make fun of them but other people don't have the right to make fun of transgender people?


No but I don't ridicule fundamentalists or Muslims either. Mostly I try to understand them and what makes them think the way they do. You're not going to get anywhere if you tell them how stupid they are.

Do you make fun of con men who take advantage of others?

 

[CLAX1911]

They still are different. I dont know what to say on this subject maybe just leave as is and choose gender neutral names.

I don't know either. to me that seems like a cross this bridge when you come to it concept.

 

[CLAX1911]

Not all women can become pregnant.

that's true some women have birth defects or other ailments or even idiopathic issues that doesn't mean that women aren't the ones who get pregnant.

In fact, in many cases, many intersexed people can't become pregnant or get a woman pregnant (does depend on how they are situated). So then for most intersexed children, even if you chose their sex for them at birth they likely wouldn't learn they would be having or making babies.

hence the reason I call it a birth defect.

 

[CLAX1911]

You're conflating religious beliefs with gender identity. Let me ask you a question: what would an intersexed person "believe".

no I'm talking specifically about identity. You completed religious beliefs with identity not me.

You're confused again. Understandable. You mentioned a study of religious vs non religious people. The study has nothing to do with specific religions, in your case Christianity. Believing, experiencing something, feeling something there are more and such is a part of the study. Believing specific things come AFTER and are due on whims based on info and situations.

So what? You said identity wasn't a choice and then you said it was.

Again I base it on science and common sense.

Your position isn't consistent so I doubt that.

I've state no such thing.

Yes you did. You said identity isn't a choice. Then you said Christian identity is a choice. Those two statements conflict with one another.

I am not aware of any one claiming as such. However people have had leg lengthing surgeries or wear shoe lifts.

It's a hypothetical I didn't say anybody claimed such a thing.

 

[CLAX1911]

Do you make fun of con men who take advantage of others?

No, I just try to undermine propaganda with truth.

 

[OldFatGuy]

There is no such thing as intersex. Another myth in the making to satisfy confusion. Social scat of no real value. There are only two genders, male and female, no matter pervasion of the norm, nothing else in-between or in addition. In the end, sex is only friction, one way or another.

 

[AProudLefty]

no I'm talking specifically about identity. You completed religious beliefs with identity not me.


So what? You said identity wasn't a choice and then you said it was.


Your position isn't consistent so I doubt that.


Yes you did. You said identity isn't a choice. Then you said Christian identity is a choice. Those two statements conflict with one another.



It's a hypothetical I didn't say anybody claimed such a thing.

What exactly is a Christian identity? And you know Christian identity is a racist group?
Christian Identity - Wikipedia
:lamo

You can identify as a.Christian. You can identify as a Kung Fu master. You can identify as a Muslim. Those things are external to self. People are not born that way. It's learned. Were you born a Christian?

 

[AProudLefty]

There is no such thing as intersex. Another myth in the making to satisfy confusion. Social scat of no real value. There are only two genders, male and female, no matter pervasion of the norm, nothing else in-between or in addition. In the end, sex is only friction, one way or another.

Uh what? Google intersex anatomy and look at the pictures.

 

[AProudLefty]

No, I just try to undermine propaganda with truth.

That's what we're doing.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

What exactly is a Christian identity? And you know Christian identity is a racist group?
Christian Identity - Wikipedia
:lamo

You can identify as a.Christian. You can identify as a Kung Fu master. You can identify as a Muslim. Those things are external to self. People are not born that way. It's learned. Were you born a Christian?

Well a Calvinist might have an answer to this question...

 

[VySky]

So I've been thinking about this a little because I do defend transgenderism with evidence that it could be that at least some transgendered people are in fact intersexed, but should not have to share this.

So the question is, should parents be encouraged to choose a sex for an intersexed child, and therefore a gender for them in those early years (that may change), at birth?



I like how she talks about allowing intersexed people being allowed to choose intersexed or some variant to recognize themselves as who they feel they are. It is only our own problems with accepting things outside the norm which leads us to seeing them as having an issue that we need to fix, to choose one of the "norm".

I will say that I do not think that it is just Christians who reject those that are intersexed, or at least the idea that they should be able to live life as both. I do believe that this is something that is more a cultural thing and part of human nature that simply should be examined and changed through conversations and reasoning as to why we should see choosing a sex for intersexed children as wrong.

As I have pointed out, she points out here, intersexed people represent 1-2% of the population. As a comparison, those with natural red hair make up about 1-2% of the population.

And this leads to a second question, should parents be prevented from choosing a sex/gender for their child at birth?

God chooses your sex with genital assignment

-VySky

 

[AProudLefty]

Well a Calvinist might have an answer to this question...

Oh yeah. I've had many interesting debates with Calvinists. Potter and clay and all that crap.

 

[roguenuke]

that's true some women have birth defects or other ailments or even idiopathic issues that doesn't mean that women aren't the ones who get pregnant.

hence the reason I call it a birth defect.

But it really isnt something that needs to be corrected. It simply is how they are born.

And again, how would you raise someone as a boy vs as a girl? Does everyone have to raise their children as you would? What guidelines are required, necessary? I've shown that your first part wouldn't apply to most intersexed people no matter how they are raised, boy, girl, or other, since they probably won't be involved in such reproductive matters and even if they are, whatever they are taught can be adjusted for their situation.


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[roguenuke]

There is no such thing as intersex. Another myth in the making to satisfy confusion. Social scat of no real value. There are only two genders, male and female, no matter pervasion of the norm, nothing else in-between or in addition. In the end, sex is only friction, one way or another.

Please learn some science and stay out of conversations that you simply, obviously know nothing about.

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[roguenuke]

God chooses your sex with genital assignment

-VySky

And some people are born with both or "assignment" that does not match their DNA or the rest of their body and how it functions. Hence this discussion.

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[VySky]

And some people are born with both or "assignment" that does not match their DNA or the rest of their body and how it functions. Hence this discussion.

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Some? Many babies are born with birth defects. Doesn't change their sex.

-VySky

 

[roguenuke]

Some? Many babies are born with birth defects. Doesn't change their sex.

-VySky

This is 1-2% of the population (same percentage as natural redheads) and deals directly with their sex.

So what determines a person's sex?

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