Shoah

[bongsaway]

Well I might have miswrote this. I didnt mean to say the majority were not German, but rather a large portion of them were from other countries, because what I did learn from this was that the Germans didnt act alone in their antisemitism.

Either way a horrible group of people.

 

[Tigerace117]

The German military and police forces were not radical enough in the space behind the front in Russia. In 1943 alone, a total of about 11,000 track blastings, 9,000 derailed trains, 40,000 destroyed wagons and 22,000 destroyed vehicles were counted.
This is no way to win a war. They would have had to torture suspects to to get information. To systematically track down and destroy the terrorists. For the cultured Central Europeans, such a thing was too brute.
The Russians were really tough and inhumane. They've exterminated each other before. With the Russians, a human life was worth nothing. In Stalin, Hitler has found his master.

The Nazis were more than “radical enough”. The atrocities they committed against the Jewish populace and the non-collaborating locals in places like Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltics and elsewhere was what caused much of the resistance against their rule. They were actively attempting to exterminate or enslave as many of the “undesirables” as possible.

And no, the people fighting the Nazis were not “terrorists”; no, the Nazis did not have to torture innocent civilians; and no, they were not “cultured”.

 

[HK.227]

There were however a few - up to 20 or so I think - individual Norwegians who joined the German Waffen SS, along with some 50 Swedes.

200 Swedes, 2000 Norweigans, and 6000 Danes joined the Waffen SS.
Swedish volunteers in the Waffen-SS
Norwegian Legion - Wikipedia
Free Corps Denmark - Wikipedia

I've often wondered why so the number of Norweigans was so high.
The Swedes were big on Nordic racial superiority but tended to volunteer with the Finnish Army, while the Danish government surreptiosuly allied with and openly encouraged Nazi recruitment (and then prosecuted the survivors after the war). But the Norweigans actually fought the Germans, so I would have expected there to have been fewer of them joining.

 

[Ringo Stalin]

As far as your hero Stalin goes, all you have to do is read about his "killer Jewish doctors" plot to understand his views:
Doctors' plot - Wikipedia

In fact, the "doctors' case " was an ordinary reaction of the Soviet government to the groupism, nepotism and corruption of the Jewish community.
Even in a note from Abakumov to Malenkov dated July 4, 1950, attention was drawn to the rapid development of groupism, nepotism and corruption among doctors of Jewish nationality. The head of Ministry of state security Abakumov reported:
"According to data, as a result of the violation of the Bolshevik principle of recruitment in the clinic of medical nutrition Academy of medical sciences of the USSR created a situation of nepotism and factionalism. For this reason, of the 43 positions of management and research staff of the clinic, 36 are occupied by persons of Jewish nationality, and mainly jews are admitted to the clinic for treatment.

The Deputy Director of the Institute of Protein nutrition on this issue said: "after a Closer look at the clinic's apparatus, I saw that 75-80% of researchers are of Jewish nationality. In the clinic, when filling out the medical history, the columns "nationality" and "party"were excluded." I suggested that the Belikov, Deputy Director of the clinic, include these graphs, since they are needed for statistics. They were included, but five days later Pevsner again canceled it.
According to the current situation, patients must enter the clinic of medical nutrition according to permits issued by the Ministry of health of the USSR and some clinics in Moscow, as well as the Institute of medical nutrition Of the Academy of medical Sciences of the USSR. In fact, the clinic is mostly attended by people of jewish nationality on the subject of the Institute of nutrition, that is, with the permission of the Director of the Institute Pevzner and the Head of the reception room Bremer. The senior nurse of the clinic, E. A. Gladkevich, who is in charge of patient registration, said: "it is characteristic to note that the majority of patients treated in the clinic are Jews. As a rule, they are placed on treatment with documents signed by Pevzner, Gordon or Bremer"".

As we can see, the note was, in fact, about the flourishing of groupism on a national basis, corruption and nepotism in one of the research institutes of medical profile.

In itself, the case of doctors was associated with the incompetence of doctors who treated high-ranking figures and, due to lack of medical practice, often committed serious medical errors. In short, it all started in 1948, when the leader of the Leningrad group, a member of the Politburo, A. Zhdanov, doctors could not detect a myocardial infarction. The clinical picture was blurred, and the electrocardiogram also gave conflicting results. One doctor, Karpay, did not find signs of a heart attack on the electrocardiogram, while another, Timashuk, considered that there was a heart attack.
The doctor's council decided that there was no heart attack. They sent Zhdanov to a sanatorium, instead of prescribing strict bed rest. Timashuk just in case wrote a denunciation, where she indicated that Zhdanov had a heart attack. As they say, it's better to overdo it than to underdo it. In the sanatorium Zhdanov died of a heart attack. This is where the suffering of the members of the medical Council began. At the autopsy, it turned out that Zhdanov had already suffered a heart attack a few days before. Vinogradov had to press another Council to give a conclusion that could be interpreted either way. For 4 years, the causes of Zhdanov's death were forgotten. +

 

[Ringo Stalin]

His death was remembered after a letter from the senior investigator of the investigative unit of the MGB of the USSR on particularly important cases, Lieutenant Colonel M. Ryumin, given to Stalin on July 2, 1951 by G. Malenkov. The letter contained a whole bunch of serious accusations against the Minister of state security V. Abakumov. One of them was that he banned Ryumin, who was conducting the case of the former consultant of the medical and sanitary Department of the Kremlin a professor-therapist Etinger, to investigate the terrorist activities of the latter, who admitted that he contributed to the wrecking treatment in 1945, the death of the Secretary of the Central Committee of the Party) A. Shcherbakov. Moreover, Ryumin claimed that, having received this testimony, Abakumov ordered the defendant to be kept in conditions that were obviously dangerous for his health, which deliberately brought him to death — and thereby " silenced the case of the terrorist Etinger, causing serious damage to the interests of the state."
On July 4, 1951, Ryumin was summoned to see Stalin, in whose office, in the presence of Molotov, Malenkov, Beria, and Bulganin, something like a confrontation with Abakumov took place. At the same time, a decision was made to create a Politburo Commission consisting of Malenkov, Beria and the head of the Department of party, Komsomol and trade Union bodies of the Central Committee Ignatiev, as well as to remove Abakumov from his duties as Minister of state security. And on July 11, according to the report of the Chairman of the Commission, Malenkov, the Politburo adopted a resolution "on the unfavorable situation in the Ministry of state security of the USSR", which was sent two days later in the form of a closed letter to the leadership of the regional bodies of the party and state security.
It is interesting that after the death of Stalin, Ignatiev said that when he was appointed on August 9 to the post of Minister of state security (instead of the arrested Abakumov), the leader allegedly demanded that "decisive measures be taken to open a group of terrorist doctors, whose existence he has long been convinced of". This evidence may be nothing more than an attempt by Ignatiev to cover up his incompetence.
By that time, intensive interrogations had already been conducted for several months by another actor in this prison-investigative drama, doctor S. E. Karpay, who was arrested on July 16 as a "hidden terrorist".
As the head of the functional diagnostics Department of the Kremlin hospital until 1950, in 1944-1945 she controlled the cardiac activity of Shcherbakov and Zhdanov by means of electrocardiography and made a professional mistake. Karpaj strongly denied incriminating her "knowingly incorrect diagnosis of the disease", but then Timashuk's vigilant letter surfaced. Zhdanov's death was added to the case.
At the end of September 1952, Ignatiev presented Stalin with a summary of Ryumin's report on the results of interrogations of arrested doctors, medical examinations, etc., which claimed that the Kremlin doctors deliberately killed Shcherbakov and Zhdanov. The arrests began. Doctors G. I. Mayorov and A. N. Fedorov were taken into custody, as well as Professor A. A. Busalov, who headed the Kremlin's medical Center until 1947. On October 18, 1952, Professor P. I. Yegorov was arrested, a month and a half before he had been removed from the post of head of the Kremlin's medical Department. At the same time, they arrested his wife Yegorova, who testified against her husband.
Note that there are few jews on the list of those arrested. It is highly unlikely that Stalin forced Ignatiev to fight with jewish doctors, but he arrested russians. In November, professors V. N. Vinogradov, V. H. Vasilenko, M. S. Vovsi, and B. B. Kogan were arrested. In December, Professor A. M. Grinstein, A. I. Feldman, J. S. Temkin. Note that jews only appear at the very end…
Professor Vinogradov during the interrogation, he showed the following: "on July 5, 1948, the electrocardiograms taken by the doctor KARPAY were not typical for a myocardial infarction, so I, YEGOROV, VASILENKO, MAYOROV and KARPAY, after discussing among themselves, decided not to diagnose a myocardial infarction. I will not hide that the main blame for this falls on me, since I had the final word in determining the nature of A. A. Zhdanov's illness.
QUESTION: Doctor TIMASHUK, who took comrade Zhdanov AA electrocardiograms after KARPAY, signaled to you that the patient has a myocardial infarction and you are causing him irreparable harm with your treatment?

ANSWER: There was such a signal.

QUESTION: What did you do?

ANSWER: We didn't listen to TIMASHUK.

QUESTION: what's More, did you try to discredit her? +

 

[Ringo Stalin]

RESPONSE: Admit.

...I have nothing to say for myself. These facts are irrefutably incriminating. But nevertheless, I still insist that there is no malice in my actions personally. Be so. On July 25, I made a medical mistake by underestimating the electrocardiographic data. On August 28, when the second electrocardiogram taken by the doctor TIMASHUK confirmed that A. A. Zhdanov had a myocardial infarction, and on August 29 the patient had a second heart attack, I realized that my mistake led to the wrong treatment of A. A. Zhdanov and threatens the patient with tragic consequences. From that moment on, I began to do everything to hide my mistake, to protect myself and those who took part in the treatment of A. A. Zhdanov, YEGOROV, VASILENKO, MAYOROV and KARPAY, for whom it was no secret that we were all guilty of the premature death of A. A. Zhdanov…

On August 31, 1948, in an effort to beat out of the hands of doctor TIMASHUK its main trump card-electrocardiographic data, I held a correspondence consultation with professors ZELENIN, ETINGER and NEZLIN, who gave me the necessary conclusion. +

 

[Ringo Stalin]

I have known ZELENIN for decades, he is a Professor of the old pre-revolutionary school, who strictly observed the rule "do not harm another", and I was sure that if he understood my predicament, he would always give a helping hand. And so it happened. ZELENIN gave a vague conclusion, which later allowed me to say that the consultation did not find a myocardial infarction in the patient A. A. Zhdanov. ETINGER is also close to me, my relationship with him allowed me to hope that he would not let me down, and NEZLIN is his student, always following his teacher. In short, all three of them — ZELENIN, ETINGER and NEZLIN-after I pointedly told them at the beginning of the consultation that, in my opinion, the patient does not have a heart attack, joined my point of view.

QUESTION: We will expose you further. You have already admitted that your fault was not only the life of comrade Zhdanov AA, but also the life of comrade Shcherbakov as was shortened. Is that it?

ANSWER: Yes, I admitted it. If the patient A. S. Shcherbakov had a serious disease-a massive myocardial infarction complicated by a heart aneurysm, I and ETINGER and LANG, who were involved in his treatment, were obliged to create a long bed rest for him. We did not stand up to this regime until the end: in the last period of A. S. Shcherbakov's life, we allowed him to make excessive movements that adversely affected the patient's health. ESPECIALLY lang insisted on this, who once even told the sick A. S. Shcherbakov: "If you were in my clinic, I would have discharged you by now." This created an A. S. in the patient. Scherbakov's false impression that he can allow himself a greater load than allowed by the state of his health. If we add to this the fact that the patient A. S. Shcherbakov made two long trips by car on may 8 and 9, 1945, and the doctors who were on duty with him, RYZHIKOV and KAJARDUZOV, did not prevent this, then it becomes obvious that the fault of us, the doctors, A. S. Shcherbakov's life was shortened."
On December 4, 1952, Stalin submitted to the Central Committee Presidium the question "On the situation in the MGB (State safety ministry) and on sabotage in medical practice". Goglidze, who made a report, laid the main blame for the long-term and unpunished activities of "saboteur doctors" on Abakumov and the former head of the Main security Department of the MGB of the USSR, N. S. Vlasik (arrested on December 16, 1952). The USSR health Minister E. I. Smirnov also paid the price — he was dismissed. In the adopted resolution of the Central Committee "on the situation in the MGB", the leadership of the state security bodies was instructed to "raise the level of investigative work, unravel the crimes of the members of the terrorist group of Kremlin doctors, find the main culprits and organizers of the atrocities they carried out."
Finally, on January 13, 1953, Pravda published an article claiming that Zhdanov had died as a result of improper treatment. However, instead of naming the true culprits of Zhdanov's death, professors Yegorov and Vinogradov, the article for some reason named doctors of jewish nationality, Vovsi, Kogan, Feldman, Etinger, Greenstein, and others who had very little to do with Zhdanov's death.
The text of this article, together with the TASU statement, was adopted at a meeting of the Bureau of the Presidium of the Central Committee of the CPSU on January 9, 1953. Stalin was absent, and the minutes of the meeting (unlike the previous ones) do not have the leader's personal signature, and in its place is a faceless "Bureau of the Presidium of the Central Committee of the CPSU". Historian Mukhin convincingly proves that it was for the MGB (note that the special services are again on the scene) that it was advantageous to shift the emphasis from doctors to jews.
Meanwhile, in connection with the publication of the article, rampant fantasies of anti-soviets continue to appear. So it is claimed that at a meeting of the Politburo on January 9, 1953, where the upcoming TASU statement was discussed, Stalin (actually absent from this meeting) read out a letter from Lydia Timashuk. According to the testimony of Stalin's daughter, after the publication of this letter, he was very worried and said that he did not believe in dishonesty of doctors.
The most interesting thing is that a number of prominent Jews (including Ehrenburg) signed a collective appeal demanding the punishment of the arrested doctors. But on February 2, a brief note appeared on this collective letter of the jews: "To archive", which meant that Stalin had stopped the case. Both the hard and soft versions of this letter were not published — it was Stalin who did not allow this to be done. Is this another manifestation of his anti-semitism?

Indeed, those who claim this are probably themselves victims of some"saboteur doctors".

 

[truthatallcost]

No, definitely correct there - anti semitism was an issue all around the world. There are numerous stories of boats full of fleeing Jews being turned away from countries, including America and Canada. It was not a good time.

I've also read that America took in a quarter of a million Jews during this time period, which is half the total number that were living in Germany. Another 100,000 or so moved to Palestine/Israel, and the ones who didn't successfully migrate were mostly lower and middle class. The rich paid to leave, and left the poor behind.

 

[Jean-s]

Socialists typically hate Jews because as a group they tend to do very well economically under capitalism. ...

Your comment, in the guise of criticizing antisemitism has managed to perpetuate that jaded antisemitic cliché about capitalist Jews. Knock it off. Also, your calumny against socialists is belied by the important contributions of Jewish socialists for which they incurred the hostility of fascists.

 

[Chagos]

I've also read that America took in a quarter of a million Jews during this time period, which is half the total number that were living in Germany. Another 100,000 or so moved to Palestine/Israel, and the ones who didn't successfully migrate were mostly lower and middle class. The rich paid to leave, and left the poor behind.

What absolutely dishonest balderdash. In the time span of 1933-1939 the US actually refused entry to something like the number cited and only round about 50,000 managed to flee to (British) Palestine.

 

[Novalis]

I've also read that America took in a quarter of a million Jews during this time period, which is half the total number that were living in Germany. Another 100,000 or so moved to Palestine/Israel, and the ones who didn't successfully migrate were mostly lower and middle class. The rich paid to leave, and left the poor behind.

When the GDR was integrated into West Germany after 1989, an immense number of applications came from Jews claiming ownership of GDR territory.
One could ask where these millions of applications came from. We are told, and this is the truth, which must not be doubted in case of punishment: The Jews were exterminated in the genocide!
Well, when the GDR dissolved, millions of applications for the retransfer of property of Jews came.
Amazing, they rose like Jesus to make money... Well, Jews always like to cash in.

 

[Novalis]

That is the difference, by the way, if a Silesian or East Prussian wants his property back there is a kick in the ass. The Jews in Germany got everything back. But Silesian workers or East Prussian farmers are not personally to blame.

 

[Novalis]

That annoys me, by the way. In Bergen-Belsen there was a clearly arranged and beautiful documentation centre.
Then, a few years ago, a huge concrete block was put up there as a new documentation centre for almost $20 million.
The old centre now stands empty next to it.
For such nonsense, huge amounts of money are burned. There is also no factual documentation of history in the centre. There manipulative things are presented. They are supposed to serve the purpose that is intended.
I find it very sad. I have been there several times for hiking, in the heath. The German tank museum is also nearby, I like it better. So more honest information.

 

[truthatallcost]

Your comment, in the guise of criticizing antisemitism has managed to perpetuate that jaded antisemitic cliché about capitalist Jews. Knock it off. Also, your calumny against socialists is belied by the important contributions of Jewish socialists for which they incurred the hostility of fascists.

View attachment 67280767

Rosa Luxemburg is not a hero. She's a big reason why Germans hated foreign jews in the 1920s.

 

[Tigerace117]

That annoys me, by the way. In Bergen-Belsen there was a clearly arranged and beautiful documentation centre.
Then, a few years ago, a huge concrete block was put up there as a new documentation centre for almost $20 million.
The old centre now stands empty next to it.
For such nonsense, huge amounts of money are burned. There is also no factual documentation of history in the centre. There manipulative things are presented. They are supposed to serve the purpose that is intended.
I find it very sad. I have been there several times for hiking, in the heath. The German tank museum is also nearby, I like it better. So more honest information.

Oh look, another Holocaust denier. Somehow I’m not surprised :roll:

But then again, given that Holocaust Denial is a crime in Germany, what “annoys” you is totally irrelevant.

I’m sure the German taxpayers are annoyed at the amount of money that’s been wasted on you.

 

[Chagos]

Rosa Luxemburg is not a hero. She's a big reason why Germans hated foreign jews in the 1920s.

You know nothing of Germans. Not of those in the 1920s, not of those today. And you know nothing of Luxemburg either

By the time she was murdered (before the 1920s), Rosa Luxemburg had been a German citizen for 19 years. A status indeed acquired by the dubious manipulation of a "fixed" marriage, but legal, nevertheless.

A dyed in the wool leftie that would not have been my cup of tea at all, but to say that "Germans" hated foreign Jews because of her is just another of your lies.

No surprise either.

 

[Chagos]

When the GDR was integrated into West Germany after 1989, an immense number of applications came from Jews claiming ownership of GDR territory.
One could ask where these millions of applications came from. We are told, and this is the truth, which must not be doubted in case of punishment: The Jews were exterminated in the genocide!
Well, when the GDR dissolved, millions of applications for the retransfer of property of Jews came.
Amazing, they rose like Jesus to make money... Well, Jews always like to cash in.

If one were to consider the bolded (by me) as truth, I guess that would make you Jewish then.

 

[truthatallcost]

When the GDR was integrated into West Germany after 1989, an immense number of applications came from Jews claiming ownership of GDR territory.
One could ask where these millions of applications came from. We are told, and this is the truth, which must not be doubted in case of punishment: The Jews were exterminated in the genocide!
Well, when the GDR dissolved, millions of applications for the retransfer of property of Jews came.
Amazing, they rose like Jesus to make money... Well, Jews always like to cash in.

That's fascinating. I'm curious as to the outcome of that episode. Were their demands successful?

I'm aware of the similar issue today, regarding Poland this time. Every piece of earth that once belonged to a jew prior to 1939 is now the rightful property of a living jew today, according to those making demands. Poland, the new holy land!

 

[truthatallcost]

You know nothing of Germans. Not of those in the 1920s, not of those today. And you know nothing of Luxemburg either

By the time she was murdered (before the 1920s), Rosa Luxemburg had been a German citizen for 19 years. A status indeed acquired by the dubious manipulation of a "fixed" marriage, but legal, nevertheless.

A dyed in the wool leftie that would not have been my cup of tea at all, but to say that "Germans" hated foreign Jews because of her is just another of your lies.

No surprise either.

Luxemburg was executed for her role in the November Uprising, the attempt lead primarily by jews of foreign background to overthrow Germany for the Communists. Many patriotic Germans carried resentment against Luxemburg and her jewish compatriots throughout the 1920s, referring to them as the November Criminals. Today, historians call the German reaction to the wannabe revolutionaries, 'The Stabbed in the Back Myth', as if it never occurred at all, or it did occur, but wasn't a significant event.

 

[Jean-s]

Rosa Luxemburg is not a hero. She's a big reason why Germans hated foreign jews in the 1920s.

Rosa Luxemburg was a German citizen who was honored with a German postage stamp in the 1970s because of her contribution to the political left, not least in giving her life. Not all Germans hated Jews in the last century. Many German Jews died for Germany in the Great War.

 

[truthatallcost]

Rosa Luxemburg was a German citizen who was honored with a German postage stamp in the 1970s because of her contribution to the political left, not least in giving her life. Not all Germans hated Jews in the last century. Many German Jews died for Germany in the Great War.

Violent revolutionary turned postage stamp honoree, lol. I know who she is Jean, you don't have to do all that. So what makes Rosa someone who should be admired in the 21st century?

 

[Jean-s]

Violent revolutionary turned postage stamp honoree, lol. I know who she is Jean, you don't have to do all that. So what makes Rosa someone who should be admired in the 21st century?

I demonstrated that not all Germans hated Jews and that some Jews were socialists not least Rosa Luxemburg who was honored by the Federal Republic as well as the Democratic Republic of Germany. Your mocking tone is to be expected from a person who hates Jews today.

 

[Fledermaus]

When the GDR was integrated into West Germany after 1989, an immense number of applications came from Jews claiming ownership of GDR territory.
One could ask where these millions of applications came from. We are told, and this is the truth, which must not be doubted in case of punishment: The Jews were exterminated in the genocide!
Well, when the GDR dissolved, millions of applications for the retransfer of property of Jews came.
Amazing, they rose like Jesus to make money... Well, Jews always like to cash in.

Citation for this miraculous rising like Jesus?

 

[truthatallcost]

I demonstrated that not all Germans hated Jews and that some Jews were socialists not least Rosa Luxemburg who was honored by the Federal Republic as well as the Democratic Republic of Germany. Your mocking tone is to be expected from a person who hates Jews today.

1. I never said 'all Germans hated Jews'.
2. Rosa Luxenburg was a violent revolutionary. You don't dispute this apparently, or at least you didn't in your reply.
3. Who wouldn't mock honoring a violent revolutionary with a postage stamp? Does that not seem inappropriate to you?

 

[truthatallcost]

Citation for this miraculous rising like Jesus?

Jokes don't have citations Fled. At least not original ones.