Self Identification Demands Placed On Others

[lwf]

hmm well is jesus his savior or a lesser prophet who came before muhammad?

ther are things that divide the 2 faiths even though they can be very similar

when a woman is a female and man is a male the words have a clear meaning not perfect but the 2 seem to be dived along naturally formed genitals and xx or xy chromosomes

the problem with females being men and women and males being women and men is they are the same thing at that point so every gender(most formerly sex) specific word are rendered useless and people are getting pissed off about the use of completely interchangeable words

so they can more closely be identified with a group they have striped the identity from because they value the similarities they have to (many but not all) people in that group,

the alternative is to still base gender on sex by some list of stereotypes common to most members of a sex but then you're still deciding who can be a man or a woman only now your booting females out of women if they don't conform and men out males if they don't conform.

then your only a man some place and only a woman in some places depending on local norms and you get to keep track of what gender someone is in their own time and place and your if norms shift


i think instead of treating a person's anxiety about what sex/gender a person generally fits in more with that a better approach would to be to broaden people's views about what someone with an xx chromosome and common female bits or xy chromosome with common male can be in the 1st place

people who have genetic difference to either of those or different anatomy and chromosome combo will need ther own definitions but no one should bat an eye about ther nature and what they choose to do based ther sexual classification either ( though all parties involved have a right to make an informed choice when it comes to sexul activitys based on ther own preferences for which sexes they want to get sexy with )

differences should be acknowledged between the sexes/genders but stigma for not conforming to gender/sex stereotype should be combated

I think that's generally the way things are going. Very few trans people omit the "trans" part of their gender. They generally specify that they are trans-woman or trans-man when that sort of distinction might matter. There is no reason not to refer to them with the pronouns they prefer.

 

[code1211]

Really? So race can be identified at birth too ?

Nurses have some sort of color scale to determine it ?

DNA is a miraculous road map to the roots we can all trace for about every physical feature we display.

Are you really not aware of this?

 

[code1211]

Did I tell you to accept that the leg exists? Did I tell you to accept that transgender person's biological sex magically changed? That's your fantasy of what I am trying to tell you and YOU want me to accept your interpretation of what I told you. :lamo

One example of "fantasy" (your word) that you might understand. You have seen women with beautiful, full and firm cleavages? The reality is that some of them have droopy and disappointing breasts. Some of them have them pushed up with tighter or special bras because they want you to see them as attractive. Same goes with make ups. With some of them you'd be screaming in horror when you wake up to their faces in the morning after one night stand. But you have no problem with calling them beautiful and attractive.

What does anything you have posted have to do with the topic we are discussing?

 

[code1211]

I stumbled upon something regarding this PC ideology. And I think this probably permeates much of our ideology.

Stay with me on this. I'm going to use some examples.

It is a way for people to feel more sophisticated. Just think of the emperor's New clothes.

So an example. You have neighborhood where the housing market is real low in the property value is real low. All the sudden you see it start being gentrified. Of course people say this raises property values but it's what happens before the gentrification that raises property values.

People who had nothing to do with this neighborhood start moving in they buy houses neighborhood businesses and they upgrade them make them nice. They are sophisticated once everyone starts moving in. It's not sophisticated any more.

At one point drinking Pabst blue ribbon beer what is sophisticated then everybody started drinking it so it's no longer sophisticated.

The same thing occurs with PC culture. The create new words and new ideas to show how sophisticated they are. If you doubt this just look at the arrogance. They may not use the word unsophisticated to describe the Neanderthals that don't hold their Hi brow new age views. But they will call you bigot, knuckle dragger the most recent one mouth breather. Then they'll tell you how you need to be educated cutting edge sciences.

Have you ever wondered why it keeps going further and further out into outer space? Seems 15 years ago it was all about gay people and how we need to accept that once most people did it wasn't sophisticated any more.

The worst thing you can do to these people, the thing that will break them. Is agree. Especially if you're a Christian white gun-toting man. Because you are not sophisticated.

Another example, think about hipsters. They would wear ski caps and scarves when it's 90 degrees outside and 80% humidity. Because that was what you weren't doing. And the fact that you thought it was stupid made it cool.

The problem they will encounter there will be no place left to go.

It makes me wonder what would happen if people just embraced this crap right away. How long will the fad last

I know a whole bunch of gay people. They have preferences that are good for them. I have preferences that are good for me. If a couple has two husbands, two wives or a wife and a husband, it's all good.

Gentrified neighborhoods are a great thing for cities. Take blighted areas and make them into beautiful, vital, thriving and safe incubators for people and communities. Again, all good.

Clothing choices are what they are. Wearing a wool hat in 100 degree temps is outside my understanding, but it the wearer is free to do it.

Now, if any of these folks determine that I need to join them in what they are doing and wish to force me to do so against my will, that's where I draw the line.

That is also what this thread is about.

 

[code1211]

This professor does a great job explaining it.

Political Correctness is simply a form of censorship. This particular iteration is a form of prior restraint.

Feigned outrage caused by the imagined slights against any minority, real or contrived, is now an accepted "thing".

It's just another tool employed by the Leftist Elites to splinter the whole and divide the population into grasping, greedy, bickering factions.

 

[code1211]

False. Gender has no biological basis. Just because it is often associated with sex does not mean that it is the same thing. Religion is often associated with ethnicity, but they are not the same thing. There are as many physical markers of gender as there are of religion. A nude corpse has no religion and no gender, just a sex and an ethnicity. Maybe they were a Muslim in life, maybe they were a woman, but all you can truly tell from physical and biological markers are sex and ethnicity.

I have no idea why you are introducing religion into this discussion. Any human can be any religion. There are no physical markers for religion.

"Religion is often associated with ethnicity." By whom? How? In what way? For what end?

On the other hand, physical markers are pretty obvious in determining the sex of the person in question. Determining the sex of the person is what we are discussing, is it not?

If not, then why would the accommodation of allowing a 40 year old man to use a ladies room be at question?

 

[Rich2018]

DNA is a miraculous road map to the roots we can all trace for about every physical feature we display.

Are you really not aware of this?

Yes but can races of humans be clearly divided ?


You can prove through DNA who a man's father was so yes you can show relationships beyond that.

That is not the same as proving membership of a race or tribe.

 

[AProudLefty]

What does anything you have posted have to do with the topic we are discussing?

Sighs. I cannot understand how you are not able to see a simple concept.
I never told you to accept the "fantasy" that a transgender person actually have the opposite biological sex.

 

[AProudLefty]

Now, if any of these folks determine that I need to join them in what they are doing and wish to force me to do so against my will, that's where I draw the line.

How are you being forced?

 

[CLAX1911]

I know a whole bunch of gay people. They have preferences that are good for them. I have preferences that are good for me. If a couple has two husbands, two wives or a wife and a husband, it's all good.

Gentrified neighborhoods are a great thing for cities. Take blighted areas and make them into beautiful, vital, thriving and safe incubators for people and communities. Again, all good.

Clothing choices are what they are. Wearing a wool hat in 100 degree temps is outside my understanding, but it the wearer is free to do it.

Now, if any of these folks determine that I need to join them in what they are doing and wish to force me to do so against my will, that's where I draw the line.

That is also what this thread is about.

I was explaining what the whole thing was about why they seem to go further and further and it's because they want to be sophisticated. I was giving examples of that and other areas

 

[CLAX1911]

Political Correctness is simply a form of censorship. This particular iteration is a form of prior restraint.

Feigned outrage caused by the imagined slights against any minority, real or contrived, is now an accepted "thing".

It's just another tool employed by the Leftist Elites to splinter the whole and divide the population into grasping, greedy, bickering factions.

It's a way for them to show they are more sophisticated than you.

 

[code1211]

Yes but can races of humans be clearly divided ?


You can prove through DNA who a man's father was so yes you can show relationships beyond that.

That is not the same as proving membership of a race or tribe.

With some accuracy, this is a fun little thing to follow up.

My wife and I have done the 23 And Me little thingy. That little exercise is revealing of where the folks that came before came from. My sister did the Ancestry.Com thingy.

Really doesn't matter what the origins are. What matters to this consideration is that there are actual, real world markers present in our physical bodies that have recorded our origins. This is not an imaginary thing.

We are what we are. Our DNA reveals some of the "Nature v Nurture equation" questions we all have at times.

 

[code1211]

Sighs. I cannot understand how you are not able to see a simple concept.
I never told you to accept the "fantasy" that a transgender person actually have the opposite biological sex.

You never seem to tell much.

It might help to understand your position if you would state it.

 

[code1211]

How are you being forced?

Not using transgender pronouns could get you fined

<snip>
Penalties of up to $250,000 can be imposed for violations that are deemed to be the result of malicious intent.

The idea of using pronouns other than “he/she” has come to light in the past decade as more people are identifying with “non-binary” gender roles, meaning not traditional male/female.

The Obama administration last week issued a decree mandating that every US public-school district allow transgender students to use the bathroom that matches their gender identities.

“There is no room in our schools for discrimination of any kind, including discrimination against transgender students on the basis of their sex,” US Attorney General Loretta Lynch said.
<snip>

 

[code1211]

I was explaining what the whole thing was about why they seem to go further and further and it's because they want to be sophisticated. I was giving examples of that and other areas

Terrific!

 

[code1211]

It's a way for them to show they are more sophisticated than you.

That is the immediate result in the particular example.

Taking ALL of the examples reveals a much wider, much more divisive attack on the whole.

I see our society as a whole tapestry and within that whole tapestry are various threads that create a beautiful symphony of colors- each as wondrously beautiful as the rest.

The effect, and I feel the probably GOAL, of the incitement of the individuals to proclaim their differences, is the work of dividers whose only goal is to divide.

We can recognize the value of each thread in our great tapestry and yet wish to have them all woven together creating the wondrous whole. Why are the minor differences suddenly more important the whole?

It's nice that each person feels so important, but the reality is that each person is not very important at all. Dust in the wind.

 

[Rich2018]

With some accuracy, this is a fun little thing to follow up.

My wife and I have done the 23 And Me little thingy. That little exercise is revealing of where the folks that came before came from. My sister did the Ancestry.Com thingy.

Really doesn't matter what the origins are. What matters to this consideration is that there are actual, real world markers present in our physical bodies that have recorded our origins. This is not an imaginary thing.

We are what we are. Our DNA reveals some of the "Nature v Nurture equation" questions we all have at times.

You should be wary of DNA tests - you don't know who those companies sell of your DNA to. I heard they are mandated to pass on to the US government.


I recall the old South African apartheid government measuring the size of skulls in mouth the nose ratios etc to determine which tribe people were descended from before determining which "homeland" the poor black man was assigned to.

 

[AProudLefty]

You never seem to tell much.

It might help to understand your position if you would state it.

Actually it would help if you would try to understand a very simple concept. You made the claim that they are trying to force you to accept something that doesn't exist. Do you even understand what the word "transgender" means? And also you made the claim that I am trying to tell you that your "vet's" leg exist which I never did. I think you are just too confused to really understand anything. Most normal people understand it right away.

 

[AProudLefty]

Not using transgender pronouns could get you fined

<snip>
Penalties of up to $250,000 can be imposed for violations that are deemed to be the result of malicious intent.

The idea of using pronouns other than “he/she” has come to light in the past decade as more people are identifying with “non-binary” gender roles, meaning not traditional male/female.

The Obama administration last week issued a decree mandating that every US public-school district allow transgender students to use the bathroom that matches their gender identities.

“There is no room in our schools for discrimination of any kind, including discrimination against transgender students on the basis of their sex,” US Attorney General Loretta Lynch said.
<snip>

Oh you have transgender employees?

 

[lwf]

I have no idea why you are introducing religion into this discussion. Any human can be any religion. There are no physical markers for religion.

"Religion is often associated with ethnicity." By whom? How? In what way? For what end?

On the other hand, physical markers are pretty obvious in determining the sex of the person in question. Determining the sex of the person is what we are discussing, is it not?

If not, then why would the accommodation of allowing a 40 year old man to use a ladies room be at question?

Determination of sex is not what we are discussing. Determination of gender is the issue. Hence the term "trans-gender." A 40-year-old man should not use the ladies room. A 40-year-old woman should, even if she is trans-gender.

 

[code1211]

You should be wary of DNA tests - you don't know who those companies sell of your DNA to. I heard they are mandated to pass on to the US government.


I recall the old South African apartheid government measuring the size of skulls in mouth the nose ratios etc to determine which tribe people were descended from before determining which "homeland" the poor black man was assigned to.

Who knows what my DNA reflects is of no importance to me.

 

[code1211]

Actually it would help if you would try to understand a very simple concept. You made the claim that they are trying to force you to accept something that doesn't exist. Do you even understand what the word "transgender" means? And also you made the claim that I am trying to tell you that your "vet's" leg exist which I never did. I think you are just too confused to really understand anything. Most normal people understand it right away.

Why did you introduce the idea of the missing leg in the first place?

 

[code1211]

Oh you have transgender employees?

I'm retired.

 

[code1211]

Determination of sex is not what we are discussing. Determination of gender is the issue. Hence the term "trans-gender." A 40-year-old man should not use the ladies room. A 40-year-old woman should, even if she is trans-gender.

What is the recourse for the woman who is offended by the penis of the woman next to her?

 

[Rich2018]

What is the recourse for the woman who is offended by the penis of the woman next to her?

How would she know ?

(women's toilets don't have urinals)