Russian IL-20 shot down by Syria as Israel used it as cover for attack

[Fledermaus]

and so their descendants deserve it to live in the desert with no future?

might it be the young state of Israel provoced that a little bit because they did not want the Arabs beeing the majority in their new liberal democratic state?

How many Germans have had to pay for choosing poorly in 1933? Excrement happens and people often have to pay for generations for the poor choices of their ancestors.

 

[oneworld2]

they might - but don´t get me wrong, I´m no fan of terrorists - but I don´t like double standards either...

I think the term " terrorist " itself is highly contentious in many cases. State terrorism for example is carried out by the armed forces of a nation state and thus people are reluctant to apply it to their own military with those on the receiving end having no such difficulty .

I don't think many people are fans of terrorists or terrorism

You are right about the sickening double standards that plague this and other conflicts and ,imo , those that use them are the very ones that are the first to scream racism/bias etc etc in a case of classic projection

 

[oneworld2]

Do Jews have a right to exist?

:roll::roll:

When you gain the ability/confidence to answer questions put to you I might consider replying to all of yours , Here we are pages after you were asked to provide a list of nation state military personnel that have shot down civil aircraft still waiting but you expect answers to your ridiculous questions

 

[oneworld2]

Hard to say...I mean, given the reliability of your messaging, clearly there is a template. I'm guessing that you have to commit it to memory...did I win? :lol:

Hasbara Russian dolls ?

 

[oneworld2]

As Ive already stated, the Isrealis attack and kill their allies to provoke incidents.

google The Lavon affair

 

[oneworld2]

Syria isn't in need of defending itself.

LOL

Every state is in need of defending itself and especially Syria over the last few years . See this is what I am saying about the double standards that are being constantly applied here by the likes of yourself. Jews defending themselves in their own state is an absolute given but Syrians or Palestinians etc etc well , perhaps not. Complete double standard

It is attacked due to terrorists behind hosted by it in its territory allowing terror acitvity to take place there.

Hezbollah are allies of Assad so of course they are going to assist his army in seeing off what they consider to be terrorist proxies supported by foreign hostile states. You don't have a monopoly on who can be called a terrorist and who can't. And what " terrorist activity " are you referring to ?

Hezbollah is an Isalmic terror group targeting Jews (and also non-Jews) for murder in Israel and outside of it, it's not capable of arguing for self-defense and is not even a nation to begin with but again a group of terrorists who engage in murder and their killing is a duty for every human being really. Gazans in Gaza like Syria's case aren't in need of defending themselves from Israeli attacks that target terrorists and only exist because of threats coming from other Gazans in Gaza.

Hezbollah is a political party from Lebanon and has seats in the Lebanese parliament and as such is something more than just a "terrorist group. " Same with Hamas. That they are prepared to resist Israeli aggressions and violations of their people and territories is why you wish them only to be seen as " terrorists " and its just ridiculous

Imminent threat is a term you pulled several posts ago due to the need for manipulations. As to the UN charter, from wiki;



Clearly you fail here to provide a logical basis to your "not enough dead Jews" argument claiming that Jews only get to defend themselves when they are attacked and killed.
You're not going to base such NEDJ argument, as you never could - as it's far from being an acceptable notion to those who aren't placing Jews to special standards.
People realize that the French bombing ISIS who have been engaging in terror attacks against French citizens on French soil is in accordance with international law and their right to self-defense, those who don't treat Jews like they need to face destruction wouldn't see such case any different and would actually see that there is more logical basis behind claiming self-defense in attacks on a terror group in a bordering nation that has gone to an all out war with the country doing its duty and targeting it.

The French actions in Iraq against ISIS are much more to do with trying to stop it making gains in Iraq and to assist the Iraqis government in trying to stabilize the situation. They were given the green light by the government to assist not unlike the Russians were given the green light to fight the foreign sponsored jihadists seeking to oust the government in Syria. Al Nusra are an Al Qeada linked group that the government there see as terrorists attacking their state and government and here is the IDF attacking those that are fighting them.

How do you expect to stop conflicts and maintain some sort of order if you allow nations to attack and violate the sovereignty of other nations just because they have dangerous weapons or people deemed to be hostile ? If that is the only justification needed then any nation has the right to claim self defence and attack any other nation and the term self defence itself becomes meaningless and inseparable from aggression.

 

[oneworld2]

Clearly you fail here to provide a logical basis to your "not enough dead Jews" argument claiming that Jews only get to defend themselves when they are attacked and killed.

Okay let's say that your position is the right one for arguments sake and we'll see how it pans out when applied universally. Which is how it should be applied elst it has no legitimacy.

So, Jews are allowed to attack and kill any and every one/group that poses a threat to them at any time and in any location

Let's apply it to the people in Lebanon. The history shows that Israel is a grave threat to the people of Lebanon. If you were applying things evenly you would surely support Hezbollah attacks on IDF personnel seeing as they pose a serious and imminent threat to the people of Lebanon. But you don't , you claim their actions are illegitimate terrorism etc

Let's apply it to the Palestinians. Do we really need to explain why the IDF is a threat to them ? So, if it is justified that Jews attack and kill those who pose a serious threat then it is likewise justifiable when Palestinians attack and kill IDF personnel right ? Well according to you , judging by the thousands of times you have denounced these very actions , this too is unjustifiable terrorism.

What about Iran ? Has Israel threatened Iran ? Has it banged the drums of war for others to attack Iran ? Is it a danger to Iran and Iranians ? And you would support the right of Iranians to target and kill Jews I suppose ?

So what we see in your positions is what I have always stated, that ONLY Jews should enjoy the "justifiable " right to kill others they fear pose a threat.

Thus it is you that wants to apply , and for everyone to support , a superior status towards Jewish lives over the lives of others. In other words Jewish supremacy and a supremacy based on race is classic racism

 

[Apocalypse]

LOL

Every state is in need of defending itself and especially Syria over the last few years . See this is what I am saying about the double standards that are being constantly applied here by the likes of yourself. Jews defending themselves in their own state is an absolute given but Syrians or Palestinians etc etc well , perhaps not. Complete double standard

The double standard like many other things you say exists only in your head.
A person defending himself from an armed robber is engaging in self defense, a person attacking an old woman with a bat clearly isn't defending himself or his bat from the old lady.
Your delusional argument relies solely on the claim that Israel attacking terror targets in Syria counts as an act of aggression against Syria they have the right to defend against - a claim which is itself delusional.

Hezbollah are allies of Assad so of course they are going to assist his army in seeing off what they consider to be terrorist proxies supported by foreign hostile states. You don't have a monopoly on who can be called a terrorist and who can't. And what " terrorist activity " are you referring to ?

Moving arms to terror group, creating bases from which to operate against citizens in villages and cities near the Syrian border, etc.
Organizations built to create terror against the citizens of one or more nations are terror groups and should be identified and faced as such by the defensive forces of these nations as is their duty to protect the citizens' security.

Hezbollah is a political party from Lebanon and has seats in the Lebanese parliament and as such is something more than just a "terrorist group. " Same with Hamas. That they are prepared to resist Israeli aggressions and violations of their people and territories is why you wish them only to be seen as " terrorists " and its just ridiculous

Having a political wing doesn't change the Islamist terrorist nature of terror groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas. Citing their delusional claims for "resisting aggression" doesn't make them a reality, it merely makes the one citing them a pawn for Islamic terrorists. They are terror groups that engage in the mass murder of innocents and are to be treated as such, hence their killing and destruction as already stated is a duty for the governments protecting their citizens. The expectation that nothing will be done against terror groups by the governments that have the duty to protect the citizens being targeted by them is equal to the murdering of innocent civilians in its morality.

The French actions in Iraq against ISIS are much more to do with trying to stop it making gains in Iraq and to assist the Iraqis government in trying to stabilize the situation. They were given the green light by the government to assist not unlike the Russians were given the green light to fight the foreign sponsored jihadists seeking to oust the government in Syria. Al Nusra are an Al Qeada linked group that the government there see as terrorists attacking their state and government and here is the IDF attacking those that are fighting them.

How do you expect to stop conflicts and maintain some sort of order if you allow nations to attack and violate the sovereignty of other nations just because they have dangerous weapons or people deemed to be hostile ? If that is the only justification needed then any nation has the right to claim self defence and attack any other nation and the term self defence itself becomes meaningless and inseparable from aggression.

No, the French targeted ISIS right after being a target to their attacks as calls for actions against them were made in France. This isn't different, only perhaps more legitiamte due to the geographical distance and the history of warfare.

Nations indeed have the right to defend themselves. Your belief that Israel do not was already shown to be detached from reality. Acts of self defense are quite separable from acts of aggression; a case such in which a nation targets the terrorists that have made their goal to use terror against the citizens of that nation is indisputably self-defense. A case of a nation targeting another nation because they want to destroy it - is an act of aggression.

Fairly simple, it takes a lot to misunderstand such concepts.

 

[Evilroddy]

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[oneworld2]

The double standard like many other things you say exists only in your head.
A person defending himself from an armed robber is engaging in self defense, a person attacking an old woman with a bat clearly isn't defending himself or his bat from the old lady.
Your delusional argument relies solely on the claim that Israel attacking terror targets in Syria counts as an act of aggression against Syria they have the right to defend against - a claim which is itself delusional.



Moving arms to terror group, creating bases from which to operate against citizens in villages and cities near the Syrian border, etc.
Organizations built to create terror against the citizens of one or more nations are terror groups and should be identified and faced as such by the defensive forces of these nations as is their duty to protect the citizens' security.



Having a political wing doesn't change the Islamist terrorist nature of terror groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas. Citing their delusional claims for "resisting aggression" doesn't make them a reality, it merely makes the one citing them a pawn for Islamic terrorists. They are terror groups that engage in the mass murder of innocents and are to be treated as such, hence their killing and destruction as already stated is a duty for the governments protecting their citizens. The expectation that nothing will be done against terror groups by the governments that have the duty to protect the citizens being targeted by them is equal to the murdering of innocent civilians in its morality.



No, the French targeted ISIS right after being a target to their attacks as calls for actions against them were made in France. This isn't different, only perhaps more legitiamte due to the geographical distance and the history of warfare.

Nations indeed have the right to defend themselves. Your belief that Israel do not was already shown to be detached from reality. Acts of self defense are quite separable from acts of aggression; a case such in which a nation targets the terrorists that have made their goal to use terror against the citizens of that nation is indisputably self-defense. A case of a nation targeting another nation because they want to destroy it - is an act of aggression.

Fairly simple, it takes a lot to misunderstand such concepts.

All based on your strawman that I believe that only Jews in the Jewish state don't have the right to defend themselves. I believe all peoples nations have the right to defend themselves , you certainly don't when it comes to Arabs or Iranians as is evidenced by your denouncements of those threatened by the Israeli threat to them

 

[Apocalypse]

Okay let's say that your position is the right one for arguments sake and we'll see how it pans out when applied universally. Which is how it should be applied elst it has no legitimacy.

So, Jews are allowed to attack and kill any and every one/group that poses a threat to them at any time and in any location

A terror group known to engage in terrorism against Jewish civilians for being Jewish in Israel and outside it, a terror group that is a proxy of Iran which is a country that wages a war against the West and specifically against Israel and is the no.1 state sponsor of terrorism. Yes, not only are they allowed to attack such organization and kill its members it's the duty of the government to do so as the most important role of a government is always to protect the security of the citizens it represents and terrorists placing a target on those citizens' back will always pose an active threat to the lives of those citizens.

Let's apply it to the people in Lebanon. The history shows that Israel is a grave threat to the people of Lebanon. If you were applying things evenly you would surely support Hezbollah attacks on IDF personnel seeing as they pose a serious and imminent threat to the people of Lebanon. But you don't , you claim their actions are illegitimate terrorism etc

Let's apply it to the Palestinians. Do we really need to explain why the IDF is a threat to them ? So, if it is justified that Jews attack and kill those who pose a serious threat then it is likewise justifiable when Palestinians attack and kill IDF personnel right ? Well according to you , judging by the thousands of times you have denounced these very actions , this too is unjustifiable terrorism.

What about Iran ? Has Israel threatened Iran ? Has it banged the drums of war for others to attack Iran ? Is it a danger to Iran and Iranians ? And you would support the right of Iranians to target and kill Jews I suppose ?

So what we see in your positions is what I have always stated, that ONLY Jews should enjoy the "justifiable " right to kill others they fear pose a threat.

Thus it is you that wants to apply , and for everyone to support , a superior status towards Jewish lives over the lives of others. In other words Jewish supremacy and a supremacy based on race is classic racism

Israel would only attack targets in Lebanon in response to terror activity coming from that territory, hence Lebanon is in no position to claim self-defense. A country not bringing to justice and halting terror activity (and actually being a partner to it as Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government) directed against another nation will have attacks on its soil and will not be able to claim self-defense in reacting and attacking the country that is defending against the terrorists in its soil.
Same with the Palesitnians and same with Iran.
When the French targeted ISIS they've done so in self-defense.
Jews have that same right whether you recognize it or not. They're equal to the French, to the British, to anyone else really.

It is not such calls for equality that are racist (if it wasn't obvious enough). It is not the comparison between Jews and French and British and others. It is the claim made by antisemitic Jew haters that Jews are unique, in that they don't get to defend thesmelves unlike the rest, that is originating in racism in its purest form - the form that allows and calls for the murder of innocents due to their ethnic, religious or national identity.

 

[Apocalypse]

All based on your strawman that I believe that only Jews in the Jewish state don't have the right to defend themselves.

Proven beyond doubt and based on your remarks. That is your position undeniably and that is why you are opposed.

I believe all peoples nations have the right to defend themselves , you certainly don't when it comes to Arabs or Iranians as is evidenced by your denouncements of those threatened by the Israeli threat to them

You literally argue against Jews not dying here.

 

[oneworld2]

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

I never had God down as an estate agent myself.

BTW the very last part of that cartoon ( mushroom clouds ) is my underlying fear and a large part of my participation in debate regarding this conflict. It's not an intractable conflict imo and its continuance may well spell complete disaster on a global scale one day.

 

[oneworld2]

Proven beyond doubt and based on your remarks. That is your position undeniably and that is why you are opposed.

Nope, definitely your strawman because if you can't undermine the argument you are invariably reliant on attacking the messenger..........same as it ever was

You literally argue against Jews not dying here.

I'm arguing against assertions based on Jewish supremacism , only Jewish lives matter and/or in keeping with the general theme of your posts

 

[Evilroddy]

I never had God down as an estate agent myself.

BTW the very last part of that cartoon ( mushroom clouds ) is my underlying fear and a large part of my participation in debate regarding this conflict. It's not an intractable conflict imo and its continuance may well spell complete disaster on a global scale one day.

Bolding in quote is mine.

oneworld2:

Let's hope cooler heads and more open hearts will one day prevail. Until then let's hold all the feet of all the maniacs on all sides to the fire of public scrutiny and review in order to keep them in check.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Apocalypse]

Nope, definitely your strawman because if you can't undermine the argument you are invariably reliant on attacking the messenger..........same as it ever was



I'm arguing against assertions based on Jewish supremacism , only Jewish lives matter and/or in keeping with the general theme of your posts

Again, you're literally arguing against Jews not dying here and that is your only point.
Arguing that Jews should only react when murdered is arguing against Jews not dying.
It's rooted in antisemitism. Claiming that the reference to Jews as equal is "Jewish supremacism" and "only Jewish lives matter" is like claiming that demanding equal rights for blacks is "black supremacism". Just as such claim would be made to mask one's anti-black raism, this claim you make is made to mask antisemitic racism. And it's a real failure as I already told you more than a dozen times.

 

[oneworld2]

A terror group known to engage in terrorism against Jewish civilians for being Jewish in Israel and outside it, a terror group that is a proxy of Iran which is a country that wages a war against the West and specifically against Israel and is the no.1 state sponsor of terrorism. Yes, not only are they allowed to attack such organization and kill its members it's the duty of the government to do so as the most important role of a government is always to protect the security of the citizens it represents and terrorists placing a target on those citizens' back will always pose an active threat to the lives of those citizens.

I think it's more of a case that the West led by the US and Israel that is waging a war against Iran for slipping the leash and attempting that most untenable of situations that of independent nationalism. The Wests treatment of the Arab world and other regional ethnic groups , including Iranians , is a litany of crimes and suppression. that you wish to present it in the complete opposite form is just hysterical though not surprising

Israel would only attack targets in Lebanon in response to terror activity coming from that territory, hence Lebanon is in no position to claim self-defense. A country not bringing to justice and halting terror activity (and actually being a partner to it as Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government) directed against another nation will have attacks on its soil and will not be able to claim self-defense in reacting and attacking the country that is defending against the terrorists in its soil.
Same with the Palesitnians and same with Iran.
When the French targeted ISIS they've done so in self-defense.
Jews have that same right whether you recognize it or not. They're equal to the French, to the British, to anyone else really.

It is not such calls for equality that are racist (if it wasn't obvious enough). It is not the comparison between Jews and French and British and others. It is the claim made by antisemitic Jew haters that Jews are unique, in that they don't get to defend thesmelves unlike the rest, that is originating in racism in its purest form - the form that allows and calls for the murder of innocents due to their ethnic, religious or national identity.

You don't get to decide who should and who should not have the right to self defence even if you think you have the power to do so.............. every nation/people have it.

" Terror activity " ?.............. seems like a deliberately vague and malleable term so as to justify ANY Israeli attack against others. Western sophistry no more no less

 

[oneworld2]

Again, you're literally arguing against Jews not dying here and that is your only point.
Arguing that Jews should only react when murdered is arguing against Jews not dying.
It's rooted in antisemitism. Claiming that the reference to Jews as equal is "Jewish supremacism" and "only Jewish lives matter" is like claiming that demanding equal rights for blacks is "black supremacism". Just as such claim would be made to mask one's anti-black raism, this claim you make is made to mask antisemitic racism. And it's a real failure as I already told you more than a dozen times.

No your dismissal of the right to self defence of your regional enemies is just blatant Jewish supremacism. You are allowed to defend yourselves but they are not . That's not seeking to be treated equally , it's wanting to be seen as superior .

Israel being the only democracy in the region claim. Denying that the Palestinians also function as a democracy , just a democracy you choose not to respect if you don't like the result of the election. The fact that you think it right that Israel also meddles in their elections arresting candidates and shutting down activism etc etc................ again deeming you have the right to do these things also denotes an air of Jewish superiority over Arabs

Jews in the US have coopted the US administration to seek to impose on its citizens laws that see criticism of the actions policies of the state of Israel ALONE is a criminal offence. That's not equality , it's supremacism. The same is taking place in the UK too , it's not equality but supremacy

The holocaust AFAIK is the only genocide that brings with it criminal charges for those who question or query the officially accepted version. You can disagree with deny the events surrounding the Armenian one , Rwandan one , the first nation American and/'or Latin American ones , events in Leopolds Congo even but question the Jewish one and you could end up in court. That's not equality , it's supremacism.

Jews only roads in the territory of another people you illegally occupy and settle also adds to the argument that many people like you don't see yourselves as equals but as superiors.

Military courts for Palestinians and civil ones for illegal settlers.

Planning permission for Jews but not for Arabs

The list is long and ugly and at every turn reeks of notions of Jewish racial superiority

I must end by stating that these hardline Jewish supremacist views are not shared by all Jewish people some of whom are not even Zionists to begin with. Even in Israel there is a small but extremely brave minority of anti racist Jews working hard to get others to treat the Palestinians and others as people.

 

[Fledermaus]

:roll::roll:

When you gain the ability/confidence to answer questions put to you I might consider replying to all of yours , Here we are pages after you were asked to provide a list of nation state military personnel that have shot down civil aircraft still waiting but you expect answers to your ridiculous questions

Is that a "yes" or a "no"?

 

[german hick]

How many Germans have had to pay for choosing poorly in 1933? Excrement happens and people often have to pay for generations for the poor choices of their ancestors.

good example! - yes, Germany lost a lot and deserved that - but: we got Marshall plan, we got peace, 10 years after the war nearly everything was normal and now we are one of the richest countries in the world with trustable allies and no fear for existance - not suffering for decades with no hope that it will be better any time

you know, the soil where allies grow, not enemies ;o)

 

[Apocalypse]

I think it's more of a case that the West led by the US and Israel that is waging a war against Iran for slipping the leash and attempting that most untenable of situations that of independent nationalism. The Wests treatment of the Arab world and other regional ethnic groups , including Iranians , is a litany of crimes and suppression. that you wish to present it in the complete opposite form is just hysterical though not surprising

Your opinions are based on empty wishes rather than reality.

You don't get to decide who should and who should not have the right to self defence even if you think you have the power to do so.............. every nation/people have it.

" Terror activity " ?.............. seems like a deliberately vague and malleable term so as to justify ANY Israeli attack against others. Western sophistry no more no less

Who's talking about getting to decide anything? There are facts. If the facts show that a person is defending himself against an armed robber that's self defense and if they show he's using a bat to attack an old lady then that's not self-defense.
The facts are that the terrorists in the service of Iran target Jews worldwide for murder. The facts are that the targets of Israeli airstrikes are belonging to the same terrorists.

 

[Apocalypse]

No your dismissal of the right to self defence of your regional enemies is just blatant Jewish supremacism. You are allowed to defend yourselves but they are not . That's not seeking to be treated equally , it's wanting to be seen as superior .

Again there are facts. Claiming that the person hitting an old lady with a bat should be allowed to do so under the right to self defense is against the facts and against logic.
Your refusal to recognize the facts makes your position detached from reality and meaningless.

Israel being the only democracy in the region claim. Denying that the Palestinians also function as a democracy , just a democracy you choose not to respect if you don't like the result of the election. The fact that you think it right that Israel also meddles in their elections arresting candidates and shutting down activism etc etc................ again deeming you have the right to do these things also denotes an air of Jewish superiority over Arabs

Jews in the US have coopted the US administration to seek to impose on its citizens laws that see criticism of the actions policies of the state of Israel ALONE is a criminal offence. That's not equality , it's supremacism. The same is taking place in the UK too , it's not equality but supremacy

The holocaust AFAIK is the only genocide that brings with it criminal charges for those who question or query the officially accepted version. You can disagree with deny the events surrounding the Armenian one , Rwandan one , the first nation American and/'or Latin American ones , events in Leopolds Congo even but question the Jewish one and you could end up in court. That's not equality , it's supremacism.

Jews only roads in the territory of another people you illegally occupy and settle also adds to the argument that many people like you don't see yourselves as equals but as superiors.

Military courts for Palestinians and civil ones for illegal settlers.

Planning permission for Jews but not for Arabs

The list is long and ugly and at every turn reeks of notions of Jewish racial superiority

No idea what you're talking about here or how that's relevant to the discussion, looks like you're just trying to throw everything you have in your head.

I must end by stating that these hardline Jewish supremacist views are not shared by all Jewish people some of whom are not even Zionists to begin with. Even in Israel there is a small but extremely brave minority of anti racist Jews working hard to get others to treat the Palestinians and others as people.

What you see as 'Jewish supremacism' and your "crusade" against it is rooted in the belief that Jews aren't equal humans and that they should face destruction be it the men the women and the children.
Hence your positions here constantly arguing against Jews not dying and against Jews existing at all.
It's a barbaric world view shared by many throughout history and they all failed. Jews yet exist.

 

[german hick]

how lame - any thing I say is fact, anything you say is a lie - Kindergartenstyle....

now I now why you don´t get along with your neighbours - with that attitude its impossible...

 

[Apocalypse]

how lame - any thing I say is fact, anything you say is a lie - Kindergartenstyle....

now I now why you don´t get along with your neighbours - with that attitude its impossible...

Yes, it's called a factual discussion. If someone claims the moon is made of cheese and uses it in an argument, he'll get called out.
None of your posts in this thread have added anything aside of personal attacks.
It seems like you see threads with Israel or Jews in the title and think about what you can write against it.
Lame indeed.

 

[german hick]

I have nothing against Jews, and nothing against muslims, christians or buddists. Everybody should get happy on his own way. Israel is the point here, and thats a state, not a religion. If religions definde special rights against others because their god gave them special rights - there I have a problem with...

And with your answer you only confirmed what I wrote before.

Could you show me one of my personal attacs?