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Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments [W:609]

Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Oh, now you want to argue it. As you may have noticed and judging by the above post, you didn't, his rhetoric regarding this subject has been changing. How can you call a temporary ban to ascertain vetting procedures and give all of the countries time to provide information be considered a permanent policy? Especially in light of how few Muslims were impacted and the secular arguments in light of the countries being terror sponsors or in a state of war?

Its not about the countries being Muslim, its about Muslim terrorists coming from those countries.

lol...is Saudi Arabia on the list? Seems to me that all but one hijacker came from there. Oh, and the other came from a country that is not on the list either.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Tje decision they just made has 3 prior supreme court decisions opposing it.

Which? I haven't read that before. Can you point to them?
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

lol...is Saudi Arabia on the list? Seems to me that all but one hijacker came from there. Oh, and the other came from a country that is not on the list either.

Given Al Qaeda's ability to fake documents, I doubt you or anyone else knows what the true nationalities of the 9/11 hijackers were. And even if it could be proven that most of them came from Saudi Arabia, that would not show that the Saudi government supported them. The people who planned that attack could have found the jihadists they needed in Afghanistan, Libya, Sudan, Somalia or almost any other predominantly Muslim nation.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

lol...is Saudi Arabia on the list? Seems to me that all but one hijacker came from there. Oh, and the other came from a country that is not on the list either.

Saudi Arabia has pretty good identification procedures in place. They communicate identity issues with the US expeditiously. The same is not true of the other nations. Which is part of the secular issues at hand--being unable to identify real identities from the countries mentioned in the EO.

Why do you so regularly sidestep valid points so much?
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Saudi Arabia has pretty good identification procedures in place. They communicate identity issues with the US expeditiously. The same is not true of the other nations. Which is part of the secular issues at hand--being unable to identify real identities from the countries mentioned in the EO.

Why do you so regularly sidestep valid points so much?

So, how do you explain 18 of 19 hijackers plus one Osama Bin Laden having Saudi Arabian passports?
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

So, how do you explain 18 of 19 hijackers plus one Osama Bin Laden having Saudi Arabian passports?

I think you will find we examine things differently now than we did then.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

I think you will find we examine things differently now than we did then.

Too bad we don't examine gun applicants more closely now than we did before Newtown. But, those who want to limit religious rights (for Muslims, of course, not Christians--oh no, we can't do that) won't budge on a few gun rights, like requiring expanded background checks.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Too bad we don't examine gun applicants more closely now than we did before Newtown. But, those who want to limit religious rights (for Muslims, of course, not Christians--oh no, we can't do that) won't budge on a few gun rights, like requiring expanded background checks.

There you go again. You refuse to even discuss the secular reasons for the EO, but you claim its solely based in religion. But you refuse to back your argument. Then you keep coming back to restricting 2nd rights because you believe 1st amendment rights are being restricted. Which is just stupidly retarded as an idea.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

There you go again. You refuse to even discuss the secular reasons for the EO, but you claim its solely based in religion. But you refuse to back your argument. Then you keep coming back to restricting 2nd rights because you believe 1st amendment rights are being restricted. Which is just stupidly retarded as an idea.

It's not secular because Trump clearly stated his intent to impose a Muslim Ban...said it darn near every day for about 6 months. So, your argument is false.

As for the 2nd, I am offering a compromise. You get your Muslim Ban, and the Left get's their gun ban.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

It's not secular because Trump clearly stated his intent to impose a Muslim Ban...said it darn near every day for about 6 months. So, your argument is false.

As for the 2nd, I am offering a compromise. You get your Muslim Ban, and the Left get's their gun ban.

Address the Order, if you can. Does it establish a Muslim ban? Are muslims from those countries specifically targeted? Are all Muslims targeted?

Your compromise is retarded. Rights are not something that is bartered.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Address the Order, if you can. Does it establish a Muslim ban? Are muslims from those countries specifically targeted? Are all Muslims targeted?

Your compromise is retarded. Rights are not something that is bartered.

Address the obvious--your president called it a Muslim Ban before he tried saying it wasn't a Muslim Ban.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

"Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
Address the Order, if you can. Does it establish a Muslim ban? Are muslims from those countries specifically targeted? Are all Muslims targeted?" oc

"Your compromise is retarded. Rights are not something that is bartered.
Address the obvious--your president called it a Muslim Ban before he tried saying it wasn't a Muslim Ban." c
I can't break that tie.
But there's no informed denial that candidate Trump advocated suspending the immigration of all Muslims "until we can figure out what the #@!^ is going on!"
"While it is important to avoid impropriety,
it is also important to avoid the appearance of impropriety." psychologist Joy Browne
Trump is a political oddity in that he has both great strengths (beating over a dozen more qualified competitors in the Republican primary), and severe weaknesses.

Speculating about the majority Muslim nations the Trump administration chose to discriminate against might without context leave reasonable doubt.

In the context of Trump's repeated promise to indefinitely suspend immigration of Muslims into the U.S., there doesn't seem to be much doubt.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Address the obvious--your president called it a Muslim Ban before he tried saying it wasn't a Muslim Ban.

One would think that the most obvious aspect of Donald Trump's commentary is that he has shown himself to be an unmatched bombastic flip-flopper, shifting his often ambiguous comments to whatever he thinks his coalition of voters wanted to hear - all the while denying that his views on just about every subject "evolves". He has held many contradictory views of Muslims.

In September of 2015 he said "I love the Muslims," and "I think they're great people." And he said he would he would be willing to appoint a Muslim to his cabinet, "absolutely," having "No problem with that.".

But then came the San Bernardino slaughter, so in December, the politician flips from "no problem" to: "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on," and he follows up in a January, explaining: "We have to get down to creating a country that's not going to have the kind of problems that we've had with people flying planes into the World Trade Centers, with the — with the shootings in California, with all the problems all over the world. ... We have to find out what's going on."

In May, perplexed by the criticism of his idea he protested that "It's a temporary ban."... that "hasn't been called for yet" and says "This is just a suggestion until we find out what's going on." Says he is open to other suggestions.

But when another massacre occurs in Orlando, Florida, of June 13th of 2016 he tacks back, reminding voters of his prior proposed ban. "And although the pause is temporary, we must find out what is going on. We have to do it," he said. "It will be lifted, this ban, when and as a nation we're in a position to properly and perfectly screen these people coming into our country."

A little over a week later, on June 24-25, Trump traveled to Scotland. He offers new views, at one point Trump tells reporters that he'd be fine with Muslims from Scotland or the U.K. coming to the U.S. Trump later takes to Twitter to explain: "We must suspend immigration from regions linked with terrorism until a proven vetting method is in place." His campaign spokesperson Katrina Pierson confirms it, telling CNN, “It doesn’t matter where you’re coming from, except for fact that the terrorist nations, which is something he is adding to this policy to make it more clear, that if you are coming from a hostile nation and you can not be vetted, absolutely you should not come into this country.” Trump has however shied away from labeling this change as a “rollback,” of his policy, but an "expansion" to use territorial criteria rather than "Muslim".

Now only a fool (or a judge) could claim to know the real intentions (or knowledge) of Donald Trump expressed in this EO - ESPECIALLY because the same EO could have been written by anyone else and been considered legal. A rational person could also suggest Trump has no nefarious motives:

First, Trump is like almost all politicians, only worse. His rhetoric reflects what he thinks people want to hear––for him, his actual religious (or anti-religious) beliefs don't exist and are ever changing. As a disingenuous panderer, he wants to showboat, pretending that he is doing something effective about terrorism. That may cynical but does mean he has actual religious animus and intentions to discriminate on that basis.

Second, we know Trump is unsophisticated and often vague...and slowly learns. At first he thinks in common sense universal terms (why not ban Muslims, the source of most modern terrorism?), then after being tutored, he rolls it back to something more sensible and legal...temporarily banning some kinds of travel from a handful of Muslim terrorist nations with vetting problems.

Hence, he arrives at the same kind of policy that, if issued by anyone else, is legal.

In any event, it is a fool that says he/she knows what trumps motivations for the EO are...I doubt even he knows.
 
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Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

One would think that the most obvious aspect of Donald Trump's commentary is that he has shown himself to be an unmatched bombastic flip-flopper, shifting his often ambiguous comments to whatever he thinks his coalition of voters wanted to hear - all the while denying that his views on just about every subject "evolves".

In September of 2015 he said "I love the Muslims," and "I think they're great people." And he said he would he would be willing to appoint a Muslim to his cabinet, "absolutely," having "No problem with that.".

But then came the San Bernardino slaughter, so in December, suddenly he flips: "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on," and he follows up in a January, explaining: "We have to get down to creating a country that's not going to have the kind of problems that we've had with people flying planes into the World Trade Centers, with the — with the shootings in California, with all the problems all over the world. ... We have to find out what's going on."

In May, perplexed by the criticism he shifted again... emphasizing "It's a temporary ban."... that "hasn't been called for yet" and says "This is just a suggestion until we find out what's going on."

But when another massacre occurs in Orlando, Florida, of June 13th of 2016 he appeared to remind voters of his prior proposed ban. "And although the pause is temporary, we must find out what is going on. We have to do it," he said. "It will be lifted, this ban, when and as a nation we're in a position to properly and perfectly screen these people coming into our country."

But on June 24-25, Trump traveled to Scotland. He then offered a new response, at one point Trump tells reporters that he'd be fine with Muslims from Scotland or the U.K. coming to the U.S. Trump later takes to Twitter to offer a clarification: "We must suspend immigration from regions linked with terrorism until a proven vetting method is in place." His campaign spokesperson Katrina Pierson confirms it, telling CNN, “It doesn’t matter where you’re coming from, except for fact that the terrorist nations, which is something he is adding to this policy to make it more clear, that if you are coming from a hostile nation and you can not be vetted, absolutely you should not come into this country.” Trump has however shied away from labeling this change as a “rollback,” of his policy, but an "expansion" to territorial rather than "Muslim".

Now only a fool (or a judge) decide the EO could have only been written for purposes of pure religious discrimination - ESPECIALLY because the same EO could have been written by anyone else and been considered legal. A rational person could also suggest:

1) Trump is like almost all politicians, only worse. His rhetoric reflects what he thinks people want to hear––for him, his actual religious (or anti-religious) beliefs don't exist and are ever changing. As a disingenuous panderer, he wants to showboat, pretending that he is doing something effective about terrorism. That may cynical but does not stem from actual religious animus or intentions to discriminate on that basis.

2) Trump is unsophisticated and uncertain...and slowly learning. At first he thinks in universal terms (banning Muslims, the source of most modern terrorism), then rolling it back to something more sensible and legal...temporarily banning some kinds of travel from a handful of Muslim terrorist nations with vetting problems.

Hence, he arrives at the same kind of policy that, if issued by anyone else, is legal.

In any event, it is a fool that says he/she knows what trumps beliefs and motivations are...I doubt even he knows.

That is the price to be paid for electing such a person president.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Well, perhaps after today's ruling, where a court once again struck down Trump's Muslim Ban, some of the Right Wingers here may be interested in making a few minor adjustments to the Freedom of Religion protections granted us by the 1st Amendment. Specifically how the courts interpret it.

After all, the argument is that banning Muslims would make us safer. I do not even disagree with you all on that. It may have some merit. Not that all Muslims are terrorists, but we do know some are. So, maybe the court should not read that "...shall make no law" part in the 1st so literally. Eh?

Well, some of your mortal enemies--in this case, not the Muslims-- the Liberals, want to make a few minor adjustments to the 2nd. They would like to tweak how the court interprets that "...shall not be infringed" part. Maybe relax it a bit for certain weapons and ammunition....you know, to make us a little safer. Who knows? That too may have some merit.

So, is it time to cut a deal between these mortal enemies? The Left gives an inch on protecting the rights of all people, regardless of their religion, and the Right gives an inch on protecting the rights of all people to have any damned gun they choose?

Maybe this is a great starting point. Come to an agreement, and that way each side can go after the things they don't like. The Right can go after bad religions and the Left can go after bad guns. Win win.

Banning non citizens Muslims has nothing to do with Freedom of Religion in the United States...
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

One would think that the most obvious aspect of Donald Trump's commentary is that he has ... shifting his often ambiguous comments to whatever he thinks his coalition of voters wanted to hear -

Elected officials are SUPPOSED to act the way that their voters want them to... that is the whole point of elected officials.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

I can't break that tie.
But there's no informed denial that candidate Trump advocated suspending the immigration of all Muslims "until we can figure out what the #@!^ is going on!"

Trump is a political oddity in that he has both great strengths (beating over a dozen more qualified competitors in the Republican primary), and severe weaknesses.

Speculating about the majority Muslim nations the Trump administration chose to discriminate against might without context leave reasonable doubt.

In the context of Trump's repeated promise to indefinitely suspend immigration of Muslims into the U.S., there doesn't seem to be much doubt.

See post 164.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

That is the price to be paid for electing such a person president.

Actually that is the price of partisan judges hell-bent on making horrible law because of their partisan view of "such a person" being president.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Elected officials are SUPPOSED to act the way that their voters want them to... that is the whole point of elected officials.

But unelected officials, those running for office, are not supposed to flim-flam their voters with BS.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Too bad we don't examine gun applicants more closely now than we did before Newtown. But, those who want to limit religious rights (for Muslims, of course, not Christians--oh no, we can't do that) won't budge on a few gun rights, like requiring expanded background checks.

what an idiotic comment. can you prove expanded background checks will do anything valuable given that you cannot find a single study that proves that the brady bill has done NOTHING to decrease violent crime. BTW what would background checks have done to stop Newtown

the BUYER Of the firearm passed a background check. the KILLER got the gun by MURDERING his own mother.

have you ever figured out why the gun control movement is losing? its because you all make such idiotic arguments that even numb sheeple are starting to realize are idiotic
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

That is the price to be paid for electing such a person president.

four years of butt hurt whining from those with TURDS?
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

But unelected officials, those running for office, are not supposed to flim-flam their voters with BS.

Why not? Where is that rule? If they are echoing what the people want then they are not flim flamming or any other ad hom you want to toss at him.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Why not? Where is that rule? If they are echoing what the people want then they are not flim flamming or any other ad hom you want to toss at him.

Your statements suggest you have a confusion. You stated that "Elected officials are SUPPOSED to act the way that their voters want them to...". I mostly agree. If the voters elected Donald Trump to create a border wall then, to the best of his ability, he should do so.

However, officials RUNNING for elections should not BS there voters - for example, they should not tell them they are going to investigate Hillary when they know its a lie to get elected. That "rule" is called ethics.

So the best I can tell is that your saying that if the voters want to be lied to by the politician, then they are not being flim-flamed. That's true. If all voters want from their politician is to be pandered to with a false promise, then that is what they deserve.

Which, I suppose, is why 14 million Republican voters nominated an entertaining flip-flopper like Donald Trump.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

what an idiotic comment. can you prove expanded background checks will do anything valuable given that you cannot find a single study that proves that the brady bill has done NOTHING to decrease violent crime. BTW what would background checks have done to stop Newtown

the BUYER Of the firearm passed a background check. the KILLER got the gun by MURDERING his own mother.

have you ever figured out why the gun control movement is losing? its because you all make such idiotic arguments that even numb sheeple are starting to realize are idiotic

Ironic, since we know you can't prove Trump's silly travel ban "will do anything valuable." It certainly would not prevent 20 people from Saudi Arabia and Egypt from coming here to fly jet liners into buildings. So, be honest, your ban is no different than their ban.
 
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