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Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments [W:609]

Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

four years of butt hurt whining from those with TURDS?

Lol...you wish he'll last four years. The only thing I see him completing is a four-year prison sentence.

Since the travel ban is about as effective as a gun ban, we should either scrap both or use worthless bans a a trading card. That way both "bannerhoids" can go home thinking they won something.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Banning non citizens Muslims has nothing to do with Freedom of Religion in the United States...

Well...except for that "Muslim" part. :roll:
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

"See post 164." mp #168
I'm w/ Speaker Ryan, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Governor Romney, and other leading Republicans.

Trump wasn't then, and isn't now fit for the office he holds.

And the things Trump say surprise him are an embarrassment to humanity.

- Trump promised us better, cheaper healthcare, and that it was going to be "so easy, so easy". And then:
“Nobody knew that healthcare could be so complicated.” President Trump
"Nobody" except the U.S. president that served immediately before you sir; and Speaker Pelosi.

Our flip-flopper in chief is so exquisitely acrobatic he can flip-flop in consecutive sentences:
Commenting on Senator John McCain (R-AZ)

"He's not a war hero.
He is a war hero.
He's a war hero because he was captured.
I like people that weren't captured. OK?" Donald Trump: July 2015 seeking the Republican nomination for the 2016 presidential race
If I may add, on the day after Memorial Day, President Trump has no military experience in his history at all, except for boarding school.

I'd like to believe if Donald Trump had ever served in combat, he'd be a little more diplomatic to one of our most faithful public servants living today.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Lol...you wish he'll last four years. The only thing I see him completing is a four-year prison sentence.

Since the travel ban is about as effective as a gun ban, we should either scrap both or use worthless bans a a trading card. That way both "bannerhoids" can go home thinking they won something.

given how accurate your predictions were for a hillary presidency, I think this one is even more silly
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Ironic, since we know you can't prove Trump's silly travel ban "will do anything valuable." It certainly would not prevent 20 people from Saudi Arabia and Egypt from coming here to fly jet liners into buildings. So, be honest, your ban is no different than their ban.

you seem unable to see the difference. You are just trying to bait gun owners now because you are upset that Trump won but you are as responsible for that as those who voted for him. Since the election, your silly posts have become even more silly.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

you seem unable to see the difference. You are just trying to bait gun owners now because you are upset that Trump won but you are as responsible for that as those who voted for him. Since the election, your silly posts have become even more silly.

You're simply too obsessed with guns to see that both groups are "bannerhoids," to use a term you like to use.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

#181

Guns are an instrument of projecting power.

Chairman Mao said "political power grows from the barrel of a gun".

For most of history the rich and powerful ran roughshod over the poor and uninfluential.
For most of history the young and muscular could impose their will on old and frail.

For the first time in history, guns have empowered the weak against the strong.

BUT !!

With power in such a small, concentrated package, such power is placed within reach of even those that lack the wisdom to wield it wisely.

When at play, young children that find an unsecured, loaded gun are often known to aim it at their playmate and pull the trigger. Why such gun owners are not punished as 1st degree murderers I'll never understand.
"both groups are "bannerhoids," #181
The vehemence of each side is proportional to the importance of the issue. That importance is no less than life & death.

EXCEPT !!

Mountain-bicycling, rappelling, scuba diving, etc
That among others is risky too.

BUT !!

With guns and drunk drivers, it's the lives and limbs of others that are placed at risk.

Thus the elevated level of passion among the opposition.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

#181

Guns are an instrument of projecting power.

Chairman Mao said "political power grows from the barrel of a gun".

For most of history the rich and powerful ran roughshod over the poor and uninfluential.
For most of history the young and muscular could impose their will on old and frail.

For the first time in history, guns have empowered the weak against the strong.

BUT !!

With power in such a small, concentrated package, such power is placed within reach of even those that lack the wisdom to wield it wisely.
When at play, young children that find an unsecured, loaded gun are often known to aim it at their playmate and pull the trigger. Why such gun owners are not punished as 1st degree murderers I'll never understand.

The vehemence of each side is proportional to the importance of the issue. That importance is no less than life & death.

EXCEPT !!

Mountain-bicycling, rappelling, scuba diving, etc
That among others is risky too.

BUT !!

With guns and drunk drivers, it's the lives and limbs of others that are placed at risk.

Thus the elevated level of passion among the opposition.

And of course, elected, liberal, democrats are the ones best able to tell us who is wise enough?

No damn thanks.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

"And of course, elected, liberal, democrats are the ones best able to tell us who is wise enough?
No damn thanks." OC #183
You have inferred what I have not implied.

The list of those not wise enough?
- 4 year old children that shouldn't have had access to a loaded gun unsupervised
- drunks that are mad at the world so they go on a shooting spree
- religious zealots that commit mass murder in the name of their god
- mentally ill that spend some time at Bible study before shooting everyone in attendance except himself
- etc.

It's a long list, according to the stats.

Even on-duty COPs are on that list, and some have lost their job for it.

The power of life & death is an extraordinary power. Wielding it wisely requires extraordinary wisdom, poise of character, etc.

It is a conspicuous political over-simplification to point the finger at "liberal democrats".
The Chickens Little clucked a riot over how the gun-grabbing Obama was going to take away guns.

Gun sales soared.

Were the 8 years of ominous warnings ever proved correct? If so, who lost a gun?
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

You have inferred what I have not implied.

The list of those not wise enough?
- 4 year old children that shouldn't have had access to a loaded gun unsupervised
- drunks that are mad at the world so they go on a shooting spree
- religious zealots that commit mass murder in the name of their god
- mentally ill that spend some time at Bible study before shooting everyone in attendance except himself
- etc.

It's a long list, according to the stats.

Even on-duty COPs are on that list, and some have lost their job for it.

The power of life & death is an extraordinary power. Wielding it wisely requires extraordinary wisdom, poise of character, etc.

It is a conspicuous political over-simplification to point the finger at "liberal democrats".
The Chickens Little clucked a riot over how the gun-grabbing Obama was going to take away guns.

Gun sales soared.

Were the 8 years of ominous warnings ever proved correct? If so, who lost a gun?

Conservatives aren't going to enact gun control measures, so who do you think will? You cant even follow the logic of your own posts.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

I think the poster means Kleindienst v. Mandel, Fiallo v. Bell, and Kerry v. Din.

As I read the decision the important test is the "facially legitimate and bona fide" test in Mandel. Mandel basically says that courts shouldn't look behind executive or legislative discretion with respect to immigration. However in Din Justice Kennedy stated that when done in "bad faith" courts may look behind the action to assess whether it is facially legitimate or not and in Zadydas v Davis the court found that the legislative and executive power with respect to immigration is not unlimited and is subject in certain circumstances to judicial review.

The court found that candidate Trump's statements illustrated bad faith that under Din the court could question whether it was a facially legitimate exercise of executive power. The court found that it wasn't - essentially stating that the EO wasn't an exercise in protecting American citizens but an exercise in discrimination. The court then found that the action violates the Establishment Clause.

In a concurring opinion one of the justices also found that the Immigration and Naturalization Act doesn't give the President the power he used as a justification for the EO but since the district court issued the injunction based solely on the 1st Amendment question and not based on the INA that question wasn't formally before the 4th Circuit.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

As I read the decision the important test is the "facially legitimate and bona fide" test in Mandel. Mandel basically says that courts shouldn't look behind executive or legislative discretion with respect to immigration. However in Din Justice Kennedy stated that when done in "bad faith" courts may look behind the action to assess whether it is facially legitimate or not and in Zadydas v Davis the court found that the legislative and executive power with respect to immigration is not unlimited and is subject in certain circumstances to judicial review.

The court found that candidate Trump's statements illustrated bad faith that under Din the court could question whether it was a facially legitimate exercise of executive power. The court found that it wasn't - essentially stating that the EO wasn't an exercise in protecting American citizens but an exercise in discrimination. The court then found that the action violates the Establishment Clause.

First, indulge me a small rant:

There is nothing more inventive (or insidious) than the judicial ritual of trying to find a pretext for linking to another series of prior micro pretexts (precedents) for judicial usurpation of power and arriving at opinions barely tied by the gossamer threads of nexus. Never mind that deductive reasoning of a plainly written law is more sure-footed in a search for truth; for judges intentionally prefer that a long string of problematical causative precedents that statistics tell us has only a tiny chance of coming out "right". Hence, the birth of bad law.

Second, in regards to Din.

a) Din arose from the decision of a consular officer to meet the requirements of a statutory law, and on that basis deny entry to an alien. Kennedy wrote (in a highly fragmented opinion) that:

"Absent an affirmative showing of bad faith on the part of the consular officer who denied Berashk a visa—which Din has not plausibly alleged with sufficient particularity—Mandel instructs us not to “look behind” the Government’s exclusion of Berashk for additional factual details beyond what its express reliance on § 1182(a)(3)(B) encompassed. See 408 U.S., at 770, 92 S.Ct. 2576."

b) So if the Trump EO (a policy issued under his statutory authority and Article 2 powers) were implemented, that same Counselor official must approve/disapprove visas based on those statutory requirements; for example, the official could only be challenged in court in his denial of a VISA if his decisions were not facially legitimate nor a (facially) bone fide (in good faith) execution of the EO.

c) The 4th circuit is warping and inflating Din for something quite different in principle; it is claiming that THOSE WHO WRITE the policy-statutory requirements for the hypothetical consular official (the President and/or, by extension , Congress) must create facially legitimate law and "in good faith" to the courts view of the Constitution?

Whatever your view of Trump's EO, it seems pretty clear that the 4th was being disingenuous in the use of DIN. "Looking behind" an officials execution of legal requirements is a different matter than asserting the right to "Look behind" the motives of those who have the authority to effectively make the law itself.

Which, by the way, is only the beginning of the 4th circuits problems with using Din...
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

You're simply too obsessed with guns to see that both groups are "bannerhoids," to use a term you like to use.

given your posting history on gun issues, and a complete lack of consistency or intellectual rigor on the topic, I am rejecting just about anything you have to say on the subject. You don't have the standing to really tell me what is "obsessive" given how you cannot even maintain any sort of constancy on the issue
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Well, perhaps after today's ruling, where a court once again struck down Trump's Muslim Ban, some of the Right Wingers here may be interested in making a few minor adjustments to the Freedom of Religion protections granted us by the 1st Amendment. Specifically how the courts interpret it.

After all, the argument is that banning Muslims would make us safer. I do not even disagree with you all on that. It may have some merit. Not that all Muslims are terrorists, but we do know some are. So, maybe the court should not read that "...shall make no law" part in the 1st so literally. Eh?

Well, some of your mortal enemies--in this case, not the Muslims-- the Liberals, want to make a few minor adjustments to the 2nd. They would like to tweak how the court interprets that "...shall not be infringed" part. Maybe relax it a bit for certain weapons and ammunition....you know, to make us a little safer. Who knows? That too may have some merit.

So, is it time to cut a deal between these mortal enemies? The Left gives an inch on protecting the rights of all people, regardless of their religion, and the Right gives an inch on protecting the rights of all people to have any damned gun they choose?

Maybe this is a great starting point. Come to an agreement, and that way each side can go after the things they don't like. The Right can go after bad religions and the Left can go after bad guns. Win win.

Lose lose for the Constitution. Nope.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

As I read the decision the important test is the "facially legitimate and bona fide" test in Mandel. Mandel basically says that courts shouldn't look behind executive or legislative discretion with respect to immigration. However in Din Justice Kennedy stated that when done in "bad faith" courts may look behind the action to assess whether it is facially legitimate or not

I grant that Justice Kennedy's concurring opinion in Din is important because it was necessary to achieve a majority vote. In the passage you note, which the Fourth Circuit made much of, Kennedy said this:

"Absent an affirmative showing of bad faith on the part of the consular officer who denied Berashk a visa—which Din has not plausibly alleged with sufficient particularity—Mandel instructs us not to 'look behind' the Government’s exclusion of Berashk for additional factual details beyond what its express reliance on [the applicable statute] encompassed" (emphasis added)

Kennedy thus imposes a condition on Mandel's instruction: It is to be respected only if the party objecting to the government action cannot make an affirmative showing, with sufficient specificity, that the action was taken in bad faith. Kennedy never cites any legal authority to support his condition, and yet he uses it to vitiate the effect of the rule from Mandel he seems to approve. As far as I can see, he just concocted this condition--and yet the Fourth Circuit made it seem like holy writ.

Where does Mandel ever say that if someone objecting to a government document which on its face offers good faith reasons can show, through specific evidence obtained elsewhere, that government acted in bad faith, that the court may then ignore Mandel's instruction and look behind the face of the document?

To use a contract law analogy, it is as if Kennedy had acknowledged there was clear legal direction that courts must follow the parol evidence rule, ignoring evidence that any term of a fully integrated contract meant anything other than just what the document said it meant; and yet had then asserted that if one of the contracting parties were to produce a statement it made during negotiations indicating it had not meant to agree to a term stated in the contract, courts were free to ignore the parol evidence rule and consider the statement.

In Zadvydas v Davis the court found that the legislative and executive power with respect to immigration is not unlimited and is subject in certain circumstances to judicial review.

If anything, Zadvydas cuts against the Fourth Circuit's ruling. The Supreme Court was concerned about the lack of judicial review of the indefinite detention of a alien the U.S. was trying to deport. It was saying that presents a serious constitutional question, because the freedom from arbitrary imprisonment lies at the heart of due process, which is guaranteed even to aliens here illegally. Nothing like those circumstances are involved here. Incidentally, Justice Scalia's brief dissenting opinion in Zadvydas (as usual for him) is both beautifully reasoned and educational. Note how firmly established it is that aliens outside U.S. territory have no rights under our Constitution.
 
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Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

given your posting history on gun issues, and a complete lack of consistency or intellectual rigor on the topic, I am rejecting just about anything you have to say on the subject. You don't have the standing to really tell me what is "obsessive" given how you cannot even maintain any sort of constancy on the issue

Inconsistent is you liking one ban but not the other.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Lose lose for the Constitution. Nope.

Yep. Both bans are ridiculous. That's what the thread op sarcastically points out. And, seeing the Travel Banners gleefully defend stripping Muslims of their protections under the First while defending their own protections under the Second was no surprise.
 
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Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Inconsistent is you liking one ban but not the other.

that's really stupid. I support banning civilians owning anthrax or endangered wildlife without proper permits. I support banning Child prostitution, etc.

You are constantly contradicting YOUR OWN Positions on guns. You started off on this board being one of the biggest spewers of bannerrhoid splooge, you then admitted you were wrong and started sounding somewhat sensible but Trump's election sent your posts back to the cesspool of the bannerrhoid brain dead zone
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

that's really stupid. I support banning civilians owning anthrax or endangered wildlife without proper permits. I support banning Child prostitution, etc.

You are constantly contradicting YOUR OWN Positions on guns. You started off on this board being one of the biggest spewers of bannerrhoid splooge, you then admitted you were wrong and started sounding somewhat sensible but Trump's election sent your posts back to the cesspool of the bannerrhoid brain dead zone

You also support banning Muslims, even though you will deny it is about banning Muslims. :)
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

You also support banning Muslims, even though you will deny it is about banning Muslims. :)

find a post where I support banning all muslims. I support enhanced inspection of people coming from areas that are responsible for supplying large percentages of the jihadists Big difference. no one knows what you truly believe other than stirring stuff up with your contrarian nonsense on guns.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Yep. Both bans are ridiculous. That's what the thread op sarcastically points out. And, seeing the Travel Banners gleefully defend stripping Muslims of their protections under the First while defending their own protections under the Second was no surprise.

what is also really stupid is pretending that the only group that supports what you dishonestly call a "muslim ban" are gun rights supporters. Have you done even a minor amount of due diligence to determine if your charges even meet the smell test? based on your posting history, I suspect the answer is a resounding no-its just something you lied about
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

TD #195

a) you're basically taking the Trump administration's position, which after some spectacularly acrobatic flip-flopping is quite like the Obama administration's position.

b) For those that deny the similarity between Trump & Obama:

- candidate Trump started out with: indefinitely suspend immigration of all Muslims until we figure out what the %$#@ is going on!

- That got shot down real fast. So Trump tried restricting immigration from some Middle East nations, all of which were majority Muslim nations.

- That got shot down too.

- So Trump's fall-back position is "extreme vetting".

And though he may not have called it that, "extreme vetting" is what the Obama administration has done.

Trump talked a great game:
- fix health care
- drain the swamp
- have Mexico pay for a wall we'd build to Trump's specifications
- Trump knows more about ISIL than our military commanders, "believe me", and that Trump would get rid of ISIL quickly.

And now we see our long-won leadership in Western Europe is fast ebbing away, as Angela Merkel swoops into the power vacuum Trump has needlessly created.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Well, perhaps after today's ruling, where a court once again struck down Trump's Muslim Ban, some of the Right Wingers here may be interested in making a few minor adjustments to the Freedom of Religion protections granted us by the 1st Amendment. Specifically how the courts interpret it.

After all, the argument is that banning Muslims would make us safer. I do not even disagree with you all on that. It may have some merit. Not that all Muslims are terrorists, but we do know some are. So, maybe the court should not read that "...shall make no law" part in the 1st so literally. Eh?

Well, some of your mortal enemies--in this case, not the Muslims-- the Liberals, want to make a few minor adjustments to the 2nd. They would like to tweak how the court interprets that "...shall not be infringed" part. Maybe relax it a bit for certain weapons and ammunition....you know, to make us a little safer. Who knows? That too may have some merit.

So, is it time to cut a deal between these mortal enemies? The Left gives an inch on protecting the rights of all people, regardless of their religion, and the Right gives an inch on protecting the rights of all people to have any damned gun they choose?

Maybe this is a great starting point. Come to an agreement, and that way each side can go after the things they don't like. The Right can go after bad religions and the Left can go after bad guns. Win win.

First of all, start with throwing out the lie that this is a ban on Muslims and get back to the truth that this is ban on a specific set of nations. As long as your argument is predicated on a lie, it will never hold water. The fact that the idea that this is a Muslim travel ban has been so thoroughly and completely debunked that it demands a willing and intentional ignoring of the truth makes your argument nothing more than yet another "I HATE TRUMP!!!!!!" spittle-fest.
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

Well, what Trump wants to do is probably a Muslim Ban. See how that works?

Look, if you want a deal, you gotta give up something. Want to ban Muslims, give up a few automatic rifles.

So you throw out a stupid assumption and then use it to back up an unreasonable demand...
 
Re: Rethinking the 1st & 2nd Ammendments

So you throw out a stupid assumption and then use it to back up an unreasonable demand...

So, basically speaking, you want your ban, but you refuse to consider the other guys' ban?
 
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