Proof of God

[Individual]

Show me the post (by number is sufficient) where you made such an admission and I shall apologize and provide the explanation forthwith.

Unnecessary, if you can't come up with an answer, I understand. Try to avoid working yourself into a corner in the future.

 

[Angel]

Evolution News is not about evolution or news. It is pure propaganda.

Like your posts?

 

[Angel]

Unnecessary, if you can't come up with an answer, I understand. Try to avoid working yourself into a corner in the future.

Just as I thought. Try good-faith posting in the future -- it has charms you can't imagine.

 

[Angel]

Thank you.

The WhatMeWorry Fallacy. Shabby.

 

[Angel]

This will be on the exam.

The Philosopher's Handbook​

Q. What is God?
A. God is the Desideratum Ultimum et Explanans Mundi.

Q. What is the Desideratum Ultimum et Explanans Mundi?
A. Roughly, the necessary ground of all that exists.

Q. What is a "ground"?
A.

Raise your hands:

 

[Individual]

Just as I thought. Try good-faith posting in the future -- it has charms you can't imagine.

You appear to disagree with what I've posted in answer to your question, but by refusing to present any reason why (in good faith), leaves me to await your presentation of a reason (in good faith). Falsely accusing me of not posting in good faith is not going to go anywhere.

 

[Angel]

You appear to disagree with what I've posted in answer to your question, but by refusing to present any reason why (in good faith), leaves me to await your presentation of a reason (in good faith). Falsely accusing me of not posting in good faith is not going to go anywhere.

Look, let's not go there. All you had to do is admit you don't understand what I'm getting at with those phrases, "the nature of phenomena" and "the phenomena of nature," and I would have explained what I meant, whereas here we are twenty or thirty posts later playing your game of test of wills. You don't really seem interested in discussion -- your refusal to adjourn to the "God is Real" thread to discuss that theme should have been the clincher, but better late than never I see what you're about.

 

[Angel]

Oy! Do you guys want to discuss proof of God or what? I've posted this three times now and all you guys seem interested in is dissing Angel.
If you're here to discuss, then discuss.

The Philosopher's Handbook​

Q. What is God?
A. God is the Desideratum Ultimum et Explanans Mundi.

Q. What is the Desideratum Ultimum et Explanans Mundi?
A. Roughly, the necessary ground of all that exists.

Q. What is a "ground"?
A.

Raise your hands:

 

[Individual]

Look, let's not go there. All you had to do is admit you don't understand what I'm getting at with those phrases, "the nature of phenomena" and "the phenomena of nature," and I would have explained what I meant, whereas here we are twenty or thirty posts later playing your game of test of wills. You don't really seem interested in discussion -- your refusal to adjourn to the "God is Real" thread to discuss that theme should have been the clincher, but better late than never I see what you're about.

How could I possibly understand what YOU'RE getting at with those phrases without you telling? We're here, twenty or thirty posts later, simply because you have refused to present an answer for me to view. The only test of wills being played is by you. I've given you my explanation of how I differentiate between the two phrases, AND I have no understanding of how you differentiate between them without you stating it.
"Proof of God", "God is Real", "Reasons to Believe", if God is real then the proof should not be so difficult to produce which would eliminate a need to believe as it would then become something Known to be True/Factual. I've never seen a dinosaur but I know they existed and were real at one time from the fossil evidence provided us. As I've found no reason to believe God is real, "Proof of God" makes much more sense to engage in, which would result in discussing "Proof God is Real" in one thread. The other thread "Reasons to Believe", requires no Proof of God being Real, simply a belief for any number of believed/hoped to be true reasons.

If you feel you made a mistake by asking the question about "the nature of phenomena" and "the phenomena of nature"that leaves you unable to answer in some way beneficial to your views, I'll understand your reasons for not trying.

 

[Angel]

How could I possibly understand what YOU'RE getting at with those phrases without you telling? We're here, twenty or thirty posts later, simply because you have refused to present an answer for me to view. The only test of wills being played is by you. I've given you my explanation of how I differentiate between the two phrases, AND I have no understanding of how you differentiate between them without you stating it.
"Proof of God", "God is Real", "Reasons to Believe", if God is real then the proof should not be so difficult to produce which would eliminate a need to believe as it would then become something Known to be True/Factual. I've never seen a dinosaur but I know they existed and were real at one time from the fossil evidence provided us. As I've found no reason to believe God is real, "Proof of God" makes much more sense to engage in, which would result in discussing "Proof God is Real" in one thread. The other thread "Reasons to Believe", requires no Proof of God being Real, simply a belief for any number of believed/hoped to be true reasons.

If you feel you made a mistake by asking the question about "the nature of phenomena" and "the phenomena of nature"that leaves you unable to answer in some way beneficial to your views, I'll understand your reasons for not trying.

By this time we have a relationship, and you should at the very least know this about me, that this PeeWeeHerman business doesn't work with me -- in fact it turns me off.
When you get your act together and decide you want to discuss the reality and existence of God with me, get back to me in the appropriate thread and without the disingenuous PeeWeeHermanisms.

 

[Individual]

Oy! Do you guys want to discuss proof of God or what? I've posted this three times now and all you guys seem interested in is dissing Angel. If you're here to discuss, then discuss.

necesse est omnis terra

The ultimate desire, "Desideratum Ultimum ", of most humans is most likely immortality or life after death.

And while advances in our ability to explain the world, "Explanans Mundi", has presented no evidence that life after death does or can possibly exist, any hope for such to be true requires one to believe a God can/will make such become true.

Particle physics, IMO, appears to diminish any hopes for believers who can only hope their beliefs will prevail in the end.

 

[Individual]

By this time we have a relationship, and you should at the very least know this about me, that this PeeWeeHerman business doesn't work with me -- in fact it turns me off. When you get your act together and decide you want to discuss the reality and existence of God with me, get back to me in the appropriate thread and without the disingenuous PeeWeeHermanisms.

No need to respond unless/until you've found a way to contribute something meaningful to converse about.

 

[Angel]

necesse est omnis terra

The ultimate desire, "Desideratum Ultimum ", of most humans is most likely immortality or life after death.

And while advances in our ability to explain the world, "Explanans Mundi", has presented no evidence that life after death does or can possibly exist, any hope for such to be true requires one to believe a God can/will make such become true.

Particle physics, IMO, appears to diminish any hopes for believers who can only hope their beliefs will prevail in the end.

Yes, from the Latin root to desire, in English more like that which is required

desideratum ​

Something considered necessary or highly desirable.
something desired as a necessity
essential, necessary, requisite, necessity, requirement - anything indispensable; "food and shelter are necessities of life"; "the essentials of the good life"; "allow farmers to buy their requirements under favorable conditions"; "a place where the requisites of water fuel and fodder can be obtained"
Desideratum - definition of desideratum by The Free Dictionary

You're on the wrong track with that afterlife business, or perhaps a private track, but not the track I'm on here, and while the last thing in the world I want to do is discuss particle physics with you or anyone else online, I'll just say that it seems to me that particle physics has the very opposite effect as regards the God Question.

But credit where due -- this post does engage and seems in good faith.

 

[Quag]

Nobody has observed evolution. They see things they think are evidences of evolution but are not.

yeah it has been observed

 

[Quag]

If you don't know what a "ground" is, why did you raise your hand. Sheesh!

if you dont know what a poof is why did you start a thread claiming to be able to prove God?

 

[Quag]

As I mentioned earlier there are indeed many observations that are consistent with the evolution hypothesis but consistent with is not evidence for, is not proof of.

In science a proposed explanation, hypothesis, theory stands or falls on whether observations emerge which are contrary to the empirical expectations of said explanation.

This is how the Copernican theory of the solar system with its circular orbits was eventually disproved, and later Newtonian gravitation and there are many more examples across the sciences.

It seems many evolution advocates are unaware of areas of observation that undermine evolution, very few ever seem to be aware of these.

Again evolution has been observed.

 

[Individual]

Yes, from the Latin root to desire, in English more like that which is required

desideratum ​

Something considered necessary or highly desirable.
something desired as a necessity
essential, necessary, requisite, necessity, requirement - anything indispensable; "food and shelter are necessities of life"; "the essentials of the good life"; "allow farmers to buy their requirements under favorable conditions"; "a place where the requisites of water fuel and fodder can be obtained"
Desideratum - definition of desideratum by The Free Dictionary

You're on the wrong track with that afterlife business, or perhaps a private track, but not the track I'm on here, and while the last thing in the world I want to do is discuss particle physics with you or anyone else online, I'll just say that it seems to me that particle physics has the very opposite effect as regards the God Question.

But credit where due -- this post does engage and seems in good faith.

Yes, if talking about food and shelter I would go with necessary as being proven/provable, though when talking about God(s), desirable appears to be the extent of proven/provable.

As I've stated previously, I find no useful purpose of God in trying to explain or gain understanding of the Universe, Life, or anything else for that matter, without inserting the beliefs in rewards claimed by religions which can ONLY be acquired by believers including those who have committed sins/crimes and repented.

Does any religion claim life to be finite, having a beginning, duration, but ending eternally at death? And is there ANY unforgivable sin?

Take away religion and religious beliefs, what ground does God provide for belief in?

 

[marke]

yeah it has been observed

Misguided humans have seen that bacteria adapts, changes, 'evolves' and so forth, but bacteria still remains bacteria. Fruit flies change but remain fruit flies. The only reason evolutionists want to believe The emergence of life cannot be attributed to simple-celled life forms progressively developing into large animals through some sort of evolutionary process. That is a very bad theory and has never been observed on any scale which can be legitimately taken as irrefutable proof of Darwinian evolution of the species.

 

[Quag]

Misguided humans have seen that bacteria adapts, changes, 'evolves' and so forth, but bacteria still remains bacteria. Fruit flies change but remain fruit flies. The only reason evolutionists want to believe The emergence of life cannot be attributed to simple-celled life forms progressively developing into large animals through some sort of evolutionary process. That is a very bad theory and has never been observed on any scale which can be legitimately taken as irrefutable proof of Darwinian evolution of the species.

Evolution has been observed your comprehension of evolution is flawed

 

[marke]

Evolution has been observed your comprehension of evolution is flawed

I agree. Evolution has been observed. Bacteria do evolve and change forms, while remaining bacteria. No bacteria has ever been observed, however, transforming into something other than bacteria. What you see in evolutionary change are tiny evidences. That is like a healer claiming to have the power of God to heal and raise the dead because he demonstrates he can heal an ankle sprain by praying over it for a few months until it is healed.

 

[devildavid]

Like your posts?

This coming from one who accuses others of Peewee Hermanism.

 

[devildavid]

The WhatMeWorry Fallacy. Shabby.

Thank you.

 

[devildavid]

This will be on the exam.

I already answered this.

 

[Peter King]

Misguided humans have seen that bacteria adapts, changes, 'evolves' and so forth, but bacteria still remains bacteria. Fruit flies change but remain fruit flies. The only reason evolutionists want to believe The emergence of life cannot be attributed to simple-celled life forms progressively developing into large animals through some sort of evolutionary process. That is a very bad theory and has never been observed on any scale which can be legitimately taken as irrefutable proof of Darwinian evolution of the species.

Evolution usually takes place over many centuries, and you claim we have not noticed it in the 200 years or so of real scientific research ergo it is not proven?

Owls in Finland have been changing colors to fit the warmer winters. Where owls a few dozen years ago were so pale grey that they fit in with the winter forests of Finland, owls now are much more brown feathered in winters to deal with the lack of snow.

Or how about dogs and cats? They evolved from their wild forefathers to what we now know as cats. There are blind cave fish, blind crustaceans in caves, both species have ditched their eyes because they no longer were fit for purpose.

 

[Angel]

Yes, if talking about food and shelter I would go with necessary as being proven/provable, though when talking about God(s), desirable appears to be the extent of proven/provable.

As I've stated previously, I find no useful purpose of God in trying to explain or gain understanding of the Universe, Life, or anything else for that matter, without inserting the beliefs in rewards claimed by religions which can ONLY be acquired by believers including those who have committed sins/crimes and repented.

Does any religion claim life to be finite, having a beginning, duration, but ending eternally at death? And is there ANY unforgivable sin?

Take away religion and religious beliefs, what ground does God provide for belief in?

God as the Desideratum Ultimum et Explanans Mundi means that God is the ground and necessary condition of all that exists. This is based on all the empirical evidence available to mankind. See Argument #7.