President Orrin Hatch

[Aberration]

IMO, Comey sending the letter to congress was him meeting a legal obligation. Chaffetz leaking it to the Right Wing press might have been a crime, however--specifically it was a Hatch Act violation by a member of Congress.

The Hatch Act doesnt apply to Congress, as they are explicitly a political body. It only applies to executive branch employees, because they are expected to be objective and apolitical in their job.


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[haymarket]

Just because his letter was related to a politician in a political election does not mean the letter was political. If such were true it could just as easily be said that the FBI investigation of Trump and Russia is political.


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The Hatch Act (5 U.S. Code § 7323(a)(1)) provides:

“(a) ... an employee may not—
(1) use his official authority or influence for the purpose of interfering with or affecting the result of an election;”

That is exactly what Comey did.

 

[haymarket]

Also, there is a long standing policy for the FBI not to inform Congress? You do know it wasnt Comey who publicized the letter?


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Comey violated the Hatch Act and policy. His firing detailed that.

 

[Fletch]

No - its my acknowledgement that there are people to whom reality is an option due to their own skillful belief system of extremist politics and its ridiculous to try and convince them otherwise.

When at this point in time somebody says that there is no evidence that Russia was involved in our election - I take it as a sign of willful mental delusion rendering the person with that view as irrational and unworthy of consideration in actual debate.

And to try and debate the issue with them is like trying to debate with somebody who declares themselves as Napoleon and cannot be deterred from that delusion.

There is no difference.

Psychiatry recognizes that in some cases the willful denial of reality can be a form of delusion. So this is not an extreme view.

That's nice. I'm just not sure why you are taking this issue up with me.

 

[Slingshot Bob]

I say that is a whole lot of magical thinking!

 

[Vetplus40]

I say that is a whole lot of magical thinking!

Hey! That is exactly what the average Trump voter was thinking when they voted for him. Obviously fairytales really do not come true.

 

[haymarket]

That's nice. I'm just not sure why you are taking this issue up with me.

from your own post #17 in his thread

Except the Russians had nothing to do with Trumps victory.

 

[Slingshot Bob]

Hey! That is exactly what the average Trump voter was thinking when they voted for him. Obviously fairytales really do not come true.

Keep right on waiting and hoping!

 

[Hypothetical]

The main question is, what Trump has proven like done to in any way justify an impeachment under us law. I mean, I don't like him, but....

for some, that's all it takes.

 

[Fletch]

from your own post #17 in his thread

And that statement is true. You seem to read that as Russia didn't try though, which is not what I said. The entire Russian issue almost certainly hurt Trump more than it did Clinton for the reasons I listed earlier. If you remember, you and I discussed this at the time. I thought certain Trump was going down 'bigly.' Even Hillary believed she would have won if the election were held prior to the release of Comeys letter. I think she is right. It was Comey who put the nail in Hillarys coffin, not the Russians.

 

[haymarket]

And that statement is true. You seem to read that as Russia didn't try though, which is not what I said. The entire Russian issue almost certainly hurt Trump more than it did Clinton for the reasons I listed earlier. If you remember, you and I discussed this at the time. I thought certain Trump was going down 'bigly.' Even Hillary believed she would have won if the election were held prior to the release of Comeys letter. I think she is right. It was Comey who put the nail in Hillarys coffin, not the Russians.

The Comey letter certainly hurt her since at least 15 million people cast ballots during that ten day period where it was out there and discussed. We agree on that.

Trump mentioned wikileaks over 160 times during the last month of the campaign and it was the death of 1,000 cuts in impact. To pretend that such a major event which Trump himself made so central to his campaign did NOT have impact on voters is frankly the most serious case of delusional denial since the flat earth's. It basically is taking the position that campaign events do not matter, speeches do not matter, media coverage does not matter, and this does not matter for a whole month at the hottest time of the campaign.

Yes, Comeys letter hurt Clinton. And yes, the Russian situation hurt her also.

 

[Fletch]

The Comey letter certainly hurt her since at least 15 million people cast ballots during that ten day period where it was out there and discussed. We agree on that.

Trump mentioned wikileaks over 160 times during the last month of the campaign and it was the death of 1,000 cuts in impact. To pretend that such a major event which Trump himself made so central to his campaign did NOT have impact on voters is frankly the most serious case of delusional denial since the flat earth's. It basically is taking the position that campaign events do not matter, speeches do not matter, media coverage does not matter, and this does not matter for a whole month at the hottest time of the campaign.

Yes, Comeys letter hurt Clinton. And yes, the Russian situation hurt her also.

I know you are too invested in the Russia story to ever let it go, but two questions come to mind. 1) do you think the Russia story damaged Trump 2) without the Comey letter, do you think Hillary would have won.

 

[calamity]

I know you are too invested in the Russia story to ever let it go, but two questions come to mind. 1) do you think the Russia story damaged Trump 2) without the Comey letter, do you think Hillary would have won.

If the voters knew then what we know now--that Trump is being investigated for illegal ties to Russia--he would have lost by 100 Electoral Votes.

 

[Fletch]

If the voters knew then what we know now--that Trump is being investigated for illegal ties to Russia--he would have lost by 100 Electoral Votes.

Not true because we really know nothing more about any supposed 'collusion' today than we did 6 months ago.

 

[calamity]

Not true because we really know nothing more about any supposed 'collusion' today than we did 6 months ago.

:lamo

 

[haymarket]

I know you are too invested in the Russia story to ever let it go, but two questions come to mind. 1) do you think the Russia story damaged Trump 2) without the Comey letter, do you think Hillary would have won.

1- NO
2 - The two stories worked together to defeat Clinton. In theory, maybe one could have done it without the other, but they both happened together and had a harmful effect.

 

[Fletch]

1- NO

That's what I mean. You are too invested in the story to answer that question rationally. Trump was absolutely hurt by the Russia story. It dogged him throughout his campaign, his campaign manager had to be fired over the story, there were numerous political adds run against him based on the story, the media brought it up constantly, it came up in a debate, yet you come here and say it had zero negative impact on his campaign.

When at this point in time somebody says that there is no evidence that the Russia story had a negative impact on the Trump campaign- I take it as a sign of willful mental delusion rendering the person with that view as irrational and unworthy of consideration in actual debate.

And to try and debate the issue with them is like trying to debate with somebody who declares themselves as Napoleon and cannot be deterred from that delusion.

There is no difference.

Psychiatry recognizes that in some cases the willful denial of reality can be a form of delusion. So this is not an extreme view.

 

[haymarket]

That's what I mean. You are too invested in the story to answer that question rationally. Trump was absolutely hurt by the Russia story. It dogged him throughout his campaign, his campaign manager had to be fired over the story, there were numerous political adds run against him based on the story, the media brought it up constantly, it came up in a debate, yet you come here and say it had zero negative impact on his campaign.

When at this point in time somebody says that there is no evidence that the Russia story had a negative impact on the Trump campaign- I take it as a sign of willful mental delusion rendering the person with that view as irrational and unworthy of consideration in actual debate.

And to try and debate the issue with them is like trying to debate with somebody who declares themselves as Napoleon and cannot be deterred from that delusion.

There is no difference.

Psychiatry recognizes that in some cases the willful denial of reality can be a form of delusion. So this is not an extreme view.

I refer you to Trump himself who stated that he could murder somebody in the middle of New York City and his voters would still support him. Nothing the guy did hurt him which is astounding since what he did would have ended the campaign of at least a half dozen different candidates individually.

Trump agrees with me on this - not you.

Donald Trump could 'shoot somebody and not lose voters' - CNNPolitics.com

Sioux Center, Iowa (CNN)Donald Trump boasted Saturday that support for his presidential campaign would not decline even if he shot someone in the middle of a crowded street.

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters," Trump said at a campaign rally here.

Nothing hurt Trump. He was pure teflon and nothing stuck.

 

[Fletch]

I refer you to Trump himself who stated that he could murder somebody in the middle of New York City and his voters would still support him. Nothing the guy did hurt him which is astounding since what he did would have ended the campaign of at least a half dozen different candidates individually.

Trump agrees with me on this - not you.

Donald Trump could 'shoot somebody and not lose voters' - CNNPolitics.com



Nothing hurt Trump. He was pure teflon and nothing stuck.

That disproves nothing I said. Both candidates had a core group that would vote for them no matter what. Pretending that was only true for Trump is just you avoiding reality. Again. There was a significant NeverTrump movement on the right. There was no such movement on the left.

 

[Aberration]

The Hatch Act (5 U.S. Code § 7323(a)(1)) provides:

“(a) ... an employee may not—
(1) use his official authority or influence for the purpose of interfering with or affecting the result of an election;”

That is exactly what Comey did.

That would be a matter of opinion. Are you saying that no politician can be investigated during an election? And the prohibitions are not just during elections. His investigation of Trump could be viewed as political. Any investigation of a politician can be viewed as political.


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[Aberration]

Comey violated the Hatch Act and policy. His firing detailed that.

Quote the details where anyone said he violated the Hatch Act.


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[haymarket]

That disproves nothing I said.

Only to the irrational mind of the True Believer. I supported my claim that he was not hurt with the mans own words about his own invulnerability.

Your reaction is the perfect and definitive proof for what I earlier said about the futility of trying to engage in rational discussion with people unable to do so because of their own delusions.

 

[haymarket]

That would be a matter of opinion. Are you saying that no politician can be investigated during an election? And the prohibitions are not just during elections. His investigation of Trump could be viewed as political. Any investigation of a politician can be viewed as political.


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Its all a matter of opinion. Get used to it.

 

[haymarket]

Quote the details where anyone said he violated the Hatch Act.


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I said he violated the Hatch Act. And I provided the section of the law. I am the one in the discussion here.

 

[Aberration]

I said he violated the Hatch Act. And I provided the section of the law. I am the one in the discussion here.

You also said his firing detailed that. Provide those details.


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