Opening Pandora's box

[OrphanSlug]

Nope, all the US Senators have to allege (completely to their own satisfaction, BTW) is that there was a reasonable suspicion of corruption (self dealing) involving Joe and/or Hunter Biden and it would be quite proper to withhold (and/or delay) US aid pending its full investigation. That would reduce the alleged offense to not having properly notified congress (in a timely manner) of the Trump administration's actions or their reasons for taking them. The problem is that Schiff refuses to allow that line of defense to be pursued in his House impeachment "inquiry" process.

The fact that Viktor Shokin was corrupt does not, in any way, mean that Joe and/or Hunter Biden was not corrupt in pushing through USAID funds destined for Burisma which just happened to employ Hunter Biden (and his business partner?) in an extremely lucrative, "make work" job requiring no onsite presence or specific job duties. Joe Biden's ridiculous claim that he had no idea who his son (and his business partner?) was working for (or what that "job" entailed) does not pass the smell test since even Schiff's "witnesses" were well aware of that situation's 'questionable appearance' with Burisma getting substantial USAID funding.

You are doing what I suspect Republicans will try to do, spin that as a US only intention. And it was not.

What happened between the US and Ukraine then has no comparison to what Trump tried to do this time.

But, as I said before... I highly doubt this gets that far.

(Quick addition... please consider that I am no supporter of Schiff and generally speaking now look at this whole affair of multiple attempts to go after Trump as nothing more than political opportunism for 2020. In principle I agree fully that we have to have a line somewhere on holding a President responsible for their actions in Constitutional terms but I am starting to see too many messes with how this has played out in the House so far. And lest we forget the whole Mueller Report fiasco that resulted in... nothing.)

 

[ocean515]

Democrats including especially the would be dictator Schiff are opening in fact what will be a Panora's box for them. Schiff and his clown crew in the House may think they are having great fun at the expense of the President.

But do they have any view of what will happen if they vote a bill of impeachment and it is sent to the Senate. The Republicans are in charge there, and pay backs will be hell!!!!! It is basically a trial, and the Republicans can call ANYONE they want to. They will call many of the members of the corrupt criminal Obama admin. That could include Schiff, Hillary, and Obama himself!!!!!!

So---------------the big question is will Schiff and the democrat dare to go down that trail? IMO they would be far better off if they call off this dog and pony show they have going, and let well enough alone.

Comments?

The New Democratic Party opened Pandora's Box 3+ years ago.

There is no stuffing the genie back in the bottle.

The payback will be crushing.

When emotions replace sound rational thinking, you deserve what is coming.

 

[ttwtt78640]

You are doing what I suspect Republicans will try to do, spin that as a US only intention. And it was not.

What happened between the US and Ukraine then has no comparison to what Trump tried to do this time.

But, as I said before... I highly doubt this gets that far.

Why not? There is no reason that Trump's defense would not include (if not focus on) bringing up the already stated rationale for Trump's wanting Joe and Hunter Biden alleged corruption (self dealing?) in Ukraine investigated. The majority demorat House side of this mess is a bash Trump and defend Biden effort, so it is completely logical that the majority republicant Senate side of this mess would become a bash Biden and defend Trump effort.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Actually this is a great demonstration of the fact that democrats run on feelings, and not logic. They are totally attracted to what feels good today. They almost NEVER think about what feels good good today, may bite them in the ass tomorrow???????

A Senate trial at the least will totally embarrass democrats, and at the most expose them as the Washington Swamp!!!

Is it? What I find interesting is your concern about whether this embarrasses Democrats versus the merits of the whistleblowers complaint and the testimony thus far. Also, generalizations like "democrats run on feelings, and not logic" is a pretty illogical thing to say give it's a generalization not supported by fact. You have a wide array of people who make decisions based on a balance of both feelings and logic. Your posting history makes it pretty clear you fall into the very same pattern you seem to be decrying. Claiming the impeachment hearings are a sham etc. is just a knee jerk reaction. Someone more levelheaded and logical would draw conclusions once it's all done.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Why not? There is no reason that Trump's defense would not include (if not focus on) bringing up the already stated rationale for Trump's wanting Joe and Hunter Biden alleged corruption (self dealing?) in Ukraine investigated. The majority demorat House side of this mess is a bash Trump and defend Biden effort, so it is completely logical that the majority republicant Senate side of this mess would become a bash Biden and defend Trump effort.

What I meant was I doubt this whole process gets far enough with Articles of Impeachment with supporting statements making their way to the Senate to deal with.

Perhaps I am just that skeptical now of Congress as a whole, but I no longer buy the sincerity of Democrats when it comes to Trump or Constitutionality. Hell I may just be in a bad mood this morning but it seems the more I consider this entire last year I distrust Democrats to do something substantial that much more, which makes them equal in how I feel about Republicans these days anyway.

 

[ttwtt78640]

What I meant was I doubt this whole process gets far enough with Articles of Impeachment with supporting statements making their way to the Senate to deal with.

Perhaps I am just that skeptical now of Congress as a whole, but I no longer buy the sincerity of Democrats when it comes to Trump or Constitutionality. Hell I may just be in a bad mood this morning but it seems the more I consider this entire last year I distrust Democrats to do something substantial that much more, which makes them equal in how I feel about Republicans these days anyway.

I also distrust both the party for a bigger federal government and the party for a huge federal government, yet fear the development of a sharp partisan divide where attaining more (exclusive?) federal government is the main mission of both. The possible silver lining in that cloud is that, with the parties denying each other any "legislative wins", it temporarily helps to stunt that (endless?) growth in federal government power and expense.

 

[TomFitz]

This totally off subject from a moderator? Are you not in effect hi-jacking the title of the thread?

Why would you say that.

Your whole premise is based on your suggestion that an impeachment trial would provide the Trump forces to conduct a fishing expidition. And that is precisely how we found ourselves talking about someone lying about a blowjob.

 

[Hari Seldon]

This totally off subject from a moderator? Are you not in effect hi-jacking the title of the thread?

On the contrary repukes in the past have been very concerned about lying about getting a bj in the oval office. Seems relevant that they would still be interested.

 

[trouble13]

Democrats including especially the would be dictator Schiff are opening in fact what will be a Panora's box for them. Schiff and his clown crew in the House may think they are having great fun at the expense of the President.

But do they have any view of what will happen if they vote a bill of impeachment and it is sent to the Senate. The Republicans are in charge there, and pay backs will be hell!!!!! It is basically a trial, and the Republicans can call ANYONE they want to. They will call many of the members of the corrupt criminal Obama admin. That could include Schiff, Hillary, and Obama himself!!!!!!

So---------------the big question is will Schiff and the democrat dare to go down that trail? IMO they would be far better off if they call off this dog and pony show they have going, and let well enough alone.

Comments?

I have been saying this for awhile now and i dont think they will actually impeach him unless there is a very big swing in the mood of the public and even then i think they would be leary of surrendering control of the narrative to the senate who can swing the mood to favor Trump.

What i predict is that at the end of the inquiry they will announce that they fulfilled their ethical responsibility to show that there is enough evidence to impeach but will leave it in the hands of voters to decide next november since those evil republicans in the senate will never remove him. The media will dutifully fall in line and support that narrative. Republicans are never going to be able to present their unvarnished defense of Trump.

If im wrong and they do impeach im not sure they could compell anyone in congress to testify.

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[trouble13]

No fired for not doing her job as the president wanted it done. Remember ambassadors are employed at the pleasure of any president. Presidents can fire any ambassador for any reason.

The sense of entitlement these people have is cringeworthy to me. Its being celebrated as heroic. Marie Antoinette would be proud.

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[TomFitz]

I have been saying this for awhile now and i dont think they will actually impeach him unless there is a very big swing in the mood of the public and even then i think they would be leary of surrendering control of the narrative to the senate who can swing the mood to favor Trump.

What i predict is that at the end of the inquiry they will announce that they fulfilled their ethical responsibility to show that there is enough evidence to impeach but will leave it in the hands of voters to decide next november since those evil republicans in the senate will never remove him. The media will dutifully fall in line and support that narrative. Republicans are never going to be able to present their unvarnished defense of Trump.

If im wrong and they do impeach im not sure they could compell anyone in congress to testify.

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The votes for impeachment have been there since early October.

Trump will be impeached.

I doubt that he will be convicted. But with each passing revelation, and each passing Trumpian stupidity, the odds are getting shorter.

 

[Logical1]

he extorted a foreign country using congressionally appropriated military funds to generate dirt on a political opponent. that's definitely more serious than lying about a blow job.

Just like what Biden did. But democrats dont want to talk about that. Democrats want to punish Trump for exposing Biden's crime, because they want to elect him president.

 

[TomFitz]

Just like what Biden did. But democrats dont want to talk about that. Democrats want to punish Trump for exposing Biden's crime, because they want to elect him president.

Trump didn’t expose any crime.

Trump was in the process of trying to steal power from Congress again,and betraying an ally to the benefit of Trump’s patron, Vladimir Putin.

 

[Logical1]

I still say democrats will pay a HIGH price if they take this to the Senate.

 

[trouble13]

The votes for impeachment have been there since early October.

Trump will be impeached.

I doubt that he will be convicted. But with each passing revelation, and each passing Trumpian stupidity, the odds are getting shorter.

Many people share your opinion, i do not happen to be one of them. Why haven't we had the vote yet if you think its such a slam dunk against him?

Pelosi has been reluctant for very good reasons but i think the growing calls from the base put her in a percarious position. If she did nothing she risked the base feeling betrayed and turning on them so she now she is trying to make a symbolic gesture to keep support from the loyalists. If she goes all the way with it she has a new problem. She runs the risk of energizing the gops base and losing swing voters who view this as partisan overreach. L

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[Middle_Ground]

Her testimony was great. She showed how trump fired her just for doing her job.


This inquiry is great

Its worse that that she showed how Trump smeared her reputation with lies to fire her when it was not needed.
That's a worse offense, it shows incompetence and pettiness.

 

[Helix]

Just like what Biden did. But democrats dont want to talk about that. Democrats want to punish Trump for exposing Biden's crime, because they want to elect him president.

But look squirrel

 

[Logical1]

Trump didn’t expose any crime.

Trump was in the process of trying to steal power from Congress again,and betraying an ally to the benefit of Trump’s patron, Vladimir Putin.

Biden flying into Ukraine on Air Force Two and demanding things from Ukraine for his son, and then flying home with his son now getting $80,000 a month is not a a crime?

 

[vegas giants]

Biden flying into Ukraine on Air Force Two and demanding things from Ukraine for his son, and then flying home with his son now getting $80,000 a month is not a a crime?

Nope its not

 

[TomFitz]

Many people share your opinion, i do not happen to be one of them. Why haven't we had the vote yet if you think its such a slam dunk against him?

Pelosi has been reluctant for very good reasons but i think the growing calls from the base put her in a percarious position. If she did nothing she risked the base feeling betrayed and turning on them so she now she is trying to make a symbolic gesture to keep support from the loyalists. If she goes all the way with it she has a new problem. She runs the risk of energizing the gops base and losing swing voters who view this as partisan overreach. L

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Six months ago, you might have had a point.

But not now. Enough Congressional members have already pledged to vote for impeachment before the hearings started.

Nothing has occurred in these hearings that make the case(s) one bit less compelling. Nothing has occurred to exhortation Trump, his little band of not so wise guys.

The current right wing line is that the Democrats shouldn’t dare take the next step for fear that the Republicans, will try and put all their talk radio stick figure villains on the stand.

That’s not much of a concern. Hunter Biden, Nellie Ohr, et al, have nothing to do with Trump’s back door campaign in Ukraine.

Their objective is two fold. One is to manufacture a counter narrative that could be used to knock Joe Biden off.

The other was to find out who dropped the dime on Paul Manafort in 2016, exposing secret cash payments from Russian backed oligarchs, which prompted him to resign from a job no other Presidential candidate would have ever hired him for in the first place.

 

[Somerville]

Since the GOPers all KNOW that every member of the Obama Administration was a corrupt gangster who only worked in the government to make money for themselves, I wonder why they support Congress critters who failed to prove any crimes committed by the Obama lackeys when they, the GOPers, were in command in both chambers of Congress.

IF the orange president was trying to push the new president of Ukraine to go after corruption by withholding military aid, why didn't he do in public? Why didn't he tell Congress, which had appropriated the funds, that he was going to hold the aid until Zelensky pushed for more investigation in Ukraine?

Then there is the ever so small matter of a trial taking place that nobody in this thread has mentioned as presenting another cause for impeachment. U.S. appeals court to revisit Trump win in hotel 'emoluments' case. The first judge to hear the case, ruled against Trump, on appeal three judges ruled for Trump. Following a further appeal by the plaintiffs, the full court will hear the case on Dec 12th.

(Reuters) - A U.S. appeals court on Tuesday said it would reconsider an earlier ruling that handed victory to U.S. President Donald Trump in a Democratic-backed lawsuit that accuses him of violating anti-corruption provisions of the U.S. Constitution with his Washington hotel.

The Richmond, Virginia-based 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said in an order that it would rehear arguments in the case, which was brought by the Democratic attorneys general of Maryland and the District of Columbia.

A three-judge panel of the court ruled on July 10 that the attorneys general lacked legal standing to bring the lawsuit, which alleged violations of constitutional provisions known as the Emoluments Clauses that bans the president from accepting gifts or payments from foreign governments without congressional consent.
(. . .)
All three of the judges who heard the initial appeal and sided with Trump were appointed by Republican presidents.

Trump faces two other pending lawsuits making similar claims. One case was brought by a group of more than 200 Democratic Party lawmakers, while the other was brought by Washington-based advocacy group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics.

 

[trouble13]

Six months ago, you might have had a point.

But not now. Enough Congressional members have already pledged to vote for impeachment before the hearings started.

Nothing has occurred in these hearings that make the case(s) one bit less compelling. Nothing has occurred to exhortation Trump, his little band of not so wise guys.

The current right wing line is that the Democrats shouldn’t dare take the next step for fear that the Republicans, will try and put all their talk radio stick figure villains on the stand.

That’s not much of a concern. Hunter Biden, Nellie Ohr, et al, have nothing to do with Trump’s back door campaign in Ukraine.

Their objective is two fold. One is to manufacture a counter narrative that could be used to knock Joe Biden off.

The other was to find out who dropped the dime on Paul Manafort in 2016, exposing secret cash payments from Russian backed oligarchs, which prompted him to resign from a job no other Presidential candidate would have ever hired him for in the first place.

She should call the vote then

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[redbeer]

Actually this is a great demonstration of the fact that democrats run on feelings, and not logic. They are totally attracted to what feels good today. They almost NEVER think about what feels good good today, may bite them in the ass tomorrow???????

A Senate trial at the least will totally embarrass democrats, and at the most expose them as the Washington Swamp!!!

I hope they do....then the dems lose control, Schiff returns to his place, Pelosi has no control over the proceedings, and the real witnesses are finally heard. Result....the democrats lose once again. They just love a good arse whipping.

 

[vegas giants]

I hope they do....then the dems lose control, Schiff returns to his place, Pelosi has no control over the proceedings, and the real witnesses are finally heard. Result....the democrats lose once again. They just love a good arse whipping.

But this inquiry is a lot of fun

 

[vegas giants]

She should call the vote then

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No rush