New Slaughtering Rules Pit Dutch Religious Freedoms Against Animal Rights

[Soopairik]

Screw the religious. They need to grow up and deal with reality.

As long as religion does not cloud up and control their lives, it's fine to be religious.

 

[Grand Mal]

Adults having imaginary friends are idiots.

So, you're smarter than people who believe in God?

 

[HowardBThiname]

No, it's expecting people to be smarter than they have been in the past. It's expecting adults to grow up. Time to get out of the bronze age.

Truth is -- it's time to stop eating meat whatsoever.

This latest move is one that is supposed to curtail animal cruelty, but it wont. The cruelty level in standard animal husbandry is greater than kosher slaughter. Kosher slaughter is pretty painless. The knives used are razor sharp and bleeding out isn't painful. A bolt through the head -- a slip of a knife to the carotid -- not really much difference at all.

What happens before is what determines an animal's life and if it's been cruel.

Leonardo Divinci felt we would move beyond meat-eating sooner than we have -- but while we're still locked in that antiquated (and barbaric) tradition, it seems odd that we should fight between two methods, trying to figure out which is the less barbaric. It's all barbaric.

 

[calamity]

So, you're smarter than people who believe in God?

Probably

 

[holbritter]

Not special treatment, protection from infringement. Are you seriously so ignorant of history to not understand why the freedom to practice religion is important?

As to the specific law, Skeptic Bob said it best

Yeah! Screw those animals having their throats cut and hung there to bleed out, when there are more humane ways of killing them.

 

[Crovax]

Yeah! Screw those animals having their throats cut and hung there to bleed out, when there are more humane ways of killing them.

Until we can protect fetuses from wanton destruction animal rights seem trivial in comparison

 

[Peter King]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/31/world/europe/netherlands-kosher-halal-animal-rights.html

War on religion? Do you think they will try to regulate small farms as well?

I believe this is the war on religion and that these actions will be coming to America.

This has nothing to do with "war on religion" but with animal welfare. The only things that have changed are twofold:

1. no ritually slaughtered meat may end up in general stores and only in stores that specialize in selling Halal/Kosher meat. Unsuspecting customers should not be exposed to meat from animals who were not slaughtered according to animal friendly slaughter methods.

2. only religious meat meant for the Dutch consumption market may be slaughtered according to religious standards, export of such meats is not allowed.

Now it is true that the Partij voor de Dieren (PvdD) Animal rights party is not really happy with the decisions of the previous cabinet but their chance of getting their plans through parliament. The current administration does not want to ban it.

But again, this has nothing to do with a war on religion.

Well, there is one party of which this issue is a war on religion but that party is the PVV and they will be the only ones who will vote in favor of such a proposal by the Animal Rights party. Not because they are animal welfare supporters, they are just Muslim haters and they want to wage war on the Muslim faith and banning ritual slaughter is fine for the PVV because Wilders hates Muslims. That this is angering his Jewish supporters (much of his party is funded by Jews from the US and Israel, the money from Israel is because Wilders supports Israel, the money from the US comes mostly from anti-Muslim groups) who are angry because the ban on ritual slaughter will also affect the Jewish community in the Netherlands.

All in all the practice of ritual slaughter will not be banned just because the PVV and the Animal rights party wants it. They do not have enough votes in either of the 2 houses in our parliament.

 

[Peter King]

From the article



This isn’t even about religious freedom it’s just straight up anti-Semitism

Nope, this is about animal welfare. The new rules are the result of negations between the Dutch organization of Jewish communities and the government and thus signed into agreement by the Jewish community in the Netherlands. Also, it affect way more Muslims than it does Jewish people. It is not like in Belgium where there will be a ban from what I have read.

The NIK, Netherlands Israeli Communities says the new agreement safeguards the continued existence of religious/Kosher slaughter in the Netherlands.

 

[Peter King]

The Jews are a small minority that is easily suppressed. The Dutch have done it before. At present the Jews can probably get kosher meat from Germany, though. I wouldn't expect civil resistance. As to the Muslims, that could be more interesting.

As to America, I would say it already is being introduced in related areas like abortion and et alias the baker crushed by gays.

The Dutch have done it before? Of course we have in the past, just like all of Europe, due to the Christian/Catholic views of people at that time. Sadly that happened in just about every country but only in the Middle Ages was there a lot of violence against small Jewish groups but since about 1600 Jews have lived reasonably peaceful in the Netherlands. Sure there was some discrimination but the Netherlands became the country where Jews fled to due to the 30 year war in Europe (German and Eastern European Jews fled the violence and moved to the Netherlands where there also was a Sefardic Jewish community).

In 1796 the Batavian Republic decided that from that year all Jews were completely equal to any other religious group in the Netherlands. The discrimination in the workplace (Jews were not allowed to join "guilds" due to there being a rule that you had to be Christian to join). Part of the Jews in the Netherlands became rather successful but sadly a lot of Jews lived in relative poverty until the 20th century came around. At that moment the Social democratic movement and the unionization of the Dutch workers lead to rapid change for the poorest Jews in the Netherlands.

A lot of Jews moved to the Netherlands when the Nazi's took power in Germany, Due to our liberal immigration policies it was rather easy to get asylum in the Netherlands. Sadly the Netherlands also has an extremely well organized basic administration (instituted by the French in the Napoleonic times) which registers where ever person in the Netherlands lives and (sadly for the Jews) it also registered faith.

When the Germans invaded (the Netherlands had been neutral in WW1 and hoped to remain neutral in WW2, which would have kept the Jews safe) they got their hands on the Dutch basic civil administration and it could easily identify Jews and knew where they exactly lived. Which is one of the reasons why Germans were so successful in finding Jews in the Netherlands.

Also, Jews can get Kosher meat from Dutch sources. This law does not change that.

 

[Crovax]

Nope, this is about animal welfare. The new rules are the result of negations between the Dutch organization of Jewish communities and the government and thus signed into agreement by the Jewish community in the Netherlands. Also, it affect way more Muslims than it does Jewish people. It is not like in Belgium where there will be a ban from what I have read.

The NIK, Netherlands Israeli Communities says the new agreement safeguards the continued existence of religious/Kosher slaughter in the Netherlands.

"Safegaurds" in the fact that if they dont agree to this the govt will take away their religious practices all together. No exactly an agreement when one party wields all the power.

 

[Peter King]

"Safegaurds" in the fact that if they dont agree to this the govt will take away their religious practices all together. No exactly an agreement when one party wields all the power.

Well, they want special treatment that other butchers and slaughterhouses aren't allowed to follow because they have to comply with animal cruelty standards so yes, it safeguards them being allowed to butcher without complying with animal cruelty rules.

 

[Cephus]

As long as religion does not cloud up and control their lives, it's fine to be religious.

Except religion can't help but cloud and control the lives of the adherent, at least to some degree.

 

[Cephus]

So, you're smarter than people who believe in God?

There is a demonstrable negative correlation between IQ/education and religious belief.

 

[Cephus]

Truth is -- it's time to stop eating meat whatsoever.

This latest move is one that is supposed to curtail animal cruelty, but it wont. The cruelty level in standard animal husbandry is greater than kosher slaughter. Kosher slaughter is pretty painless. The knives used are razor sharp and bleeding out isn't painful. A bolt through the head -- a slip of a knife to the carotid -- not really much difference at all.

What happens before is what determines an animal's life and if it's been cruel.

Leonardo Divinci felt we would move beyond meat-eating sooner than we have -- but while we're still locked in that antiquated (and barbaric) tradition, it seems odd that we should fight between two methods, trying to figure out which is the less barbaric. It's all barbaric.

Why? Vegans are, at least in my experience, generally unpleasant people to be around. Humans are naturally omnivorous. There is no rational reason to stop eating meat entirely.

 

[calamity]

Until we can protect fetuses from wanton destruction animal rights seem trivial in comparison

Abortion threads are ------>

 

[calamity]

There is a demonstrable negative correlation between IQ/education and religious belief.

Well, to be fair, Jews are pretty damned smart. But, unlike rabid Christians and Muslims, most Jews are not into mumbo jumbo and dogma, but rather use their religion as a means to enhance lives, mostly by eating healthier, living smarter and expanding business opportunities.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Why? Vegans are, at least in my experience, generally unpleasant people to be around. Humans are naturally omnivorous. There is no rational reason to stop eating meat entirely.

It's a personal preference, I suppose, but meat-eaters typically are less healthy than non meat-eaters and the world is trending toward less meat all the time.

Plus, unless one has to eat meat to survive (just my opinion), I think raising animals for slaughter, and killing them, is a pretty barbaric practice. I realize my opinion is not shared by all, but it's shared by a growing number of people. At some point I think we all have to make the decision as to what kind of life we want to live, and whether we will harm other creatures unnecessarily just to satisfy a taste for blood.

That said -- there's no real difference in the way Kosher meat is slaughtered vs. non-Kosher, and, in fact, Kosher animals are usually raised in a much more humane way.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Well, to be fair, Jews are pretty damned smart. But, unlike rabid Christians and Muslims, most Jews are not into mumbo jumbo and dogma, but rather use their religion as a means to enhance lives, mostly by eating healthier, living smarter and expanding business opportunities.

I find this to be pretty accurate. Kosher laws, when followed, offer food that's much less likely to result in human sickness and the transmission of disease and bacteria. Like I said -- I prefer not to eat animals at all -- but Kosher food is safer and the animals are generally treated much better.

 

[HowardBThiname]

1. no ritually slaughtered meat may end up in general stores and only in stores that specialize in selling Halal/Kosher meat. Unsuspecting customers should not be exposed to meat from animals who were not slaughtered according to animal friendly slaughter methods.
.

This made me chuckle. There is nothing friendly about animal slaughter. Visit any slaughterhouse in the US and watch the terrified animals as they're herded into the chutes.

 

[joG]

The Dutch have done it before? Of course we have in the past, just like all of Europe, due to the Christian/Catholic views of people at that time. Sadly that happened in just about every country but only in the Middle Ages was there a lot of violence against small Jewish groups but since about 1600 Jews have lived reasonably peaceful in the Netherlands. Sure there was some discrimination but the Netherlands became the country where Jews fled to due to the 30 year war in Europe (German and Eastern European Jews fled the violence and moved to the Netherlands where there also was a Sefardic Jewish community).

In 1796 the Batavian Republic decided that from that year all Jews were completely equal to any other religious group in the Netherlands. The discrimination in the workplace (Jews were not allowed to join "guilds" due to there being a rule that you had to be Christian to join). Part of the Jews in the Netherlands became rather successful but sadly a lot of Jews lived in relative poverty until the 20th century came around. At that moment the Social democratic movement and the unionization of the Dutch workers lead to rapid change for the poorest Jews in the Netherlands.

A lot of Jews moved to the Netherlands when the Nazi's took power in Germany, Due to our liberal immigration policies it was rather easy to get asylum in the Netherlands. Sadly the Netherlands also has an extremely well organized basic administration (instituted by the French in the Napoleonic times) which registers where ever person in the Netherlands lives and (sadly for the Jews) it also registered faith.

When the Germans invaded (the Netherlands had been neutral in WW1 and hoped to remain neutral in WW2, which would have kept the Jews safe) they got their hands on the Dutch basic civil administration and it could easily identify Jews and knew where they exactly lived. Which is one of the reasons why Germans were so successful in finding Jews in the Netherlands.

Also, Jews can get Kosher meat from Dutch sources. This law does not change that.

If you cannot slaughter by kosher rules? Hoq can the sources be Dutch?

As to the amount of anti semitism yoy seem to have a more optimistic view than some of the more serious sources in the internet as a short three word Google in either French, German or English. They go back some way. Here is a link to a Jewish site, but Huffington, Le Monde or Die Welt are also less than happy Anti-Semitism and Hypocrisy in Dutch Society - Manfred Gerstenfeld .

As to the Muslims, Geert Wilders does okay on them. Of course in official measures like forbidding headdress Holland lags its neighbors, which is not surprising given continental European sentiment. After all, the members of the EU (actually Schengen group) agreed to pay North African strongmen to capture refugees to prevent them from crossing the Mediterranean, which was obviously going to run more or less as it did whith horrendous living conditiins and Blacks auctioned off as slaves.

 

[joG]

They ended the export of Kosher meat. Probably wouldn't be to hard to end the import.

You mean using similar flimsy arguments as the ones with whuch they have largely been able to keep out genetically improved agricultural seeds.

 

[joG]

But specifically banning burkas or habits is an obvious targeting of them. But if you pass a law for security reasons that says you can’t cover your face in public so as to conceal your identity, then that isn’t targeting religions even though it would affect some religions more than others.

I think laws should be passed with no consideration of religions whatsoever. Is there a real need for a given law? If there is, then pass it. If a particular act is innocuous enough that you would allow a particular special interest group to keep doing it, then it shouldn’t be illegal in the first place.

I agree that laws should be passed without any regard for religion or race. But a law that breaks the Constitution is unconstitutional no matter its intention. In that case the law must go or the Constitution must be revised. Otherwise any protection or right can be subverted.

 

[Godric1970]

The Dutch have done it before? Of course we have in the past, just like all of Europe, due to the Christian/Catholic views of people at that time. Sadly that happened in just about every country but only in the Middle Ages was there a lot of violence against small Jewish groups but since about 1600 Jews have lived reasonably peaceful in the Netherlands. Sure there was some discrimination but the Netherlands became the country where Jews fled to due to the 30 year war in Europe (German and Eastern European Jews fled the violence and moved to the Netherlands where there also was a Sefardic Jewish community).

not entirely true 1 country in Europe has never been guilty of persecuting JEWS by the state is Scotland ... Jews fled to Scotland when after the York massacre in 1190 and after 1290's Edict of Expulsion by Edward the 1st of England

most of the jews living today in Scotland emanate from Georgia, Lithuania and Poland when the Russian Empire began to persecute Jews they came in their droves to Glasgow

 

[Peter King]

This made me chuckle. There is nothing friendly about animal slaughter. Visit any slaughterhouse in the US and watch the terrified animals as they're herded into the chutes.

Well, the idea is that ritually killing animals is worse than regular slaughter practices.

 

[Barnacle]

I don't think it's a war on religion at all but that also doesn't mean I support it either. Based on the article if kosher is " animals are conscious and healthy" I guess my question is how are 100s of millions of animals slaughtered. Im sure its not a matter of "healthy" but its a matter of "conscious" . .

That really doesn't bother me either way if they are or aren't conscious but if that's the sticking point I certainly don;t see that as a war on religion, it simply a disagreement between animal activists and people who don't really care. So IMO if somebody wants to have a farm that does it to conscious animals that is fine by me but nobody should be forced to do so or forced not to do so unless some other rational argument can be made?

Is there a rational argument to not allow the animals to be conscious?

Unless you like to watch how an animal is struggling while it's dying a painful death.