National Debt Myth

[Ganondagan]

Although a government with a sovereign fiat currency like the USD, which "prints" (i.e. types the amount into a computer keyboard at the FED), can't inject as much money into the economy as it wants due to hyperinflation, it can easily have a budget that is 10%, 20%, 40% the nation's GDP (i.e. Gross Domestic Product = Nation's Production Capacity). The US federal government will never go insolvent or not have enough USD, as Senator Paul Ryan suggests here, when he is correct by Greenspan:

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Ryan sounds like an ignorant dolt, suggesting that the US federal government can go insolvent (running out of money), being unable to pay for Social Security. Greenspan corrects him by reminding him that the US federal government can't run out of USD, because it creates it ex-nihilo (i.e. out of nothing). The real issue isn't whether the US federal government has enough money to pay for Social Security, but rather whether the economy is able to provide Social Security recipients with the goods and services they want to purchase. Production is the issue, not solvency. The so-called national debt, is actually just a ledger of how much money the US federal government has "spent" or "injected" into the US economy (and world economy too, since the USD is the world's reserve currency) in the last 240 years, that hasn't been returned to it in taxes (and other government fees) and has been invested in one way or the other by the public (treasury bonds, assets). If there's a so-called debt, where is the asset? Debts have an asset tied to it. One can just as well call the supposed "national debt", a "national asset", since the US federal government's "red ink" (debt), is the American people's "black ink" (assets). It's a ledger of how much money the private sector, and the American people in general (including other people around the world, who own and use USD), have in their pockets. Watch these two top economists and scholars explain all of this in detail:

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Notice how the so-called "national debt" is reflected or projected as the "national asset". If the US federal government is in debt, the American people have more money to invest and save. Balance the federal government budget, and the US economy tanks within two or three years. Every time the US federal government has "balanced" its budget, the private sector suffers and we go into an economic recession. Why all of the fearmongering about the "national debt"? It's because the wealthy ruling class in this country and their cronies in government, don't want the government doing anything for the American people. The "big government" rhetoric, spewed by both Republicans and some Democrats is designed to place as many publicly owned assets and government projects in the hands of the wealthy. They demonize and denigrate the government in the eyes of the American public, portraying themselves (their privately owned companies) as the only solution to whatever problem we face. They would eliminate Social Security and Medicare if they could, privatizing EVERYTHING. Putting it ALL in the hands of a few billionaires. And of course, ironically, many American working-class people will just go along with it and even defend their masters. Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, is clear as to who are the "masters"

What are the common wages of labor, depends every where upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labor. It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. (Book I, Chapter VIII)

George Carlin: They own you

www.youtube.com

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Our national debt is about 125% of GDP, and the nearly $900 billion it takes to pay interest on our national debt is greater than the entire defense budget.

 

[nvflash]

Putting it ALL in the hands of a few billionaires.

That's all the debt does now.

Even if you hand out money as fast as you can print it, it get spent and ends up right back in the pockets of the rich. They invest it in US debt and get even more back.

The more the debt grows, the more wealth inequality grows in favor of the rich at the expense of the masses.

How many billionaires were there in 1980 when we started down the path of debt and deficits don't matter?

It's a house of cards for 90% of the people, while the rich can just go live somewhere else when in caves in on us.

 

[multivita-man]

Although a government with a sovereign fiat currency like the USD, which "prints" (i.e. types the amount into a computer keyboard at the FED), can't inject as much money into the economy as it wants due to hyperinflation, it can easily have a budget that is 10%, 20%, 40% the nation's GDP (i.e. Gross Domestic Product = Nation's Production Capacity).

Sure, but what about 100-125% with no corrective mechanism in sight?

The US federal government will never go insolvent or not have enough USD, as Senator Paul Ryan suggests here, when he is correct by Greenspan:

It doesn't have to go bankrupt to cause problems. The problem now is that the debt is beyond the Fed's ability to correct with interest rate hikes.

 

[nvflash]

Sure, but what about 100-125% with no corrective mechanism in sight?



It doesn't have to go bankrupt to cause problems. The problem now is that the debt is beyond the Fed's ability to correct with interest rate hikes.

You can't correct the debt with interest rate hikes, because then the interest on rolling over the old debt is higher.

The real trouble is inflation, run up inflation, run away inflation, deflation. In that oder, if I had to put my finger on it, I would say we are in-between run up and run away inflation.

There is nothing to be done, it's too late, it ends in deflation, but they have always known that. That's why we still have gold in deep storage. It's only by the miracle of American ingenuity the game has lasted this long, but we crossed the bridge to nowhere long ago.........

Federal Debt: Total Public Debt as Percent of Gross Domestic Product

View the ratio of federal debt to the economic output of the U.S., which can indicate economic health and the sustainability of government borrowing.

fred.stlouisfed.org

 

[nvflash]

As long as we can import more poor people who don't mind living a few families to a household and struggling to make ends meet by working, because it's still better than the situation they came from, they can keep the game going longer.

Already many Americans are just dropping out of the workforce because of inflation, they can't afford not to live at home with their parents and the ones who are working are 'soft quitting' and just putting in hours.

 

[multivita-man]

You can't correct the debt with interest rate hikes, because then the interest on rolling over the old debt is higher.

You could if bank lending were the source of inflation, and more importantly, if the national debt were at, say, a third of the GDP. Or if there was an appetite for major tax hikes and/or spending cuts to bring the debt-GDP ratio back into balance. None of these apply to America in 2024.

 

[L88]

Interest on the debt is now 1 trillion dollars a year.

Yes the government can print money. But not value. Printing additional money only dilutes the value of all money in circulation.

 

[Ganondagan]

That's actually the opposite of an arbitrary standard. The problem with gold is a lack of it; worldwide, there are only a few ounces per capita.

That's an advantage of having a gold standard, it limits the size and power of government.

 

[mrjurrs]

When we allow government to do things FOR us, then we must allow government to do things TO us.

Uh, no thanks. All I want government to do is let citizens be free, neither restraining us nor aiding us in our pursuits.

I disagree that the "Big Government" meme is rhetoric.

Our federal government has become massively powerful, and in some cases uses taxation as a form of punishment, or as a method to modify the citizen's behavior. Both are reprehensible.

"As government expands, liberty contracts." - Ronald Reagan

Bullshit. You or someone dear to you is anticipating post 65 income and medical care.

 

[Ganondagan]

The level of U.S. national debt most certainly threatens not only America's economy but also the global economy. It is unsustainable and will have disastrous consequences.

IMF sounds alarm on U.S. debt, warning 'something will have to give' - UPI.com

The International Monetary Fund warned the United States on Tuesday that the government's rampant spending and growing national debt is not sustainable and could threaten the global economy.

www.upi.com

IMF sounds alarm on U.S. debt, warning 'something will have to give'​

April 16 (UPI) -- The International Monetary Fund warned the United States on Tuesday that the government's rampant spending and growing national debt is not sustainable and could threaten the global economy.

"Something will have to give," the Washington-based nonpartisan financial agency of the United Nations warned, despite signs of economic growth.

"The exceptional recent performance of the United States is certainly impressive and a major driver of global growth, but it reflects strong demand factors as well, including a fiscal stance that is out of line with long-term fiscal sustainability," according to the IMF.

"This raises short-term risks to the disinflation process, as well as longer-term fiscal and financial stability risks for the global economy since it risks pushing up global funding costs."

 

[post]

When we allow government to do things FOR us, then we must allow government to do things TO us.

Uh, no thanks. All I want government to do is let citizens be free, neither restraining us nor aiding us in our pursuits.

I disagree that the "Big Government" meme is rhetoric.

Our federal government has become massively powerful, and in some cases uses taxation as a form of punishment, or as a method to modify the citizen's behavior. Both are reprehensible.

"As government expands, liberty contracts." - Ronald Reagan

The ones who "do things to us," are the largest donors or the G.O.P. This is obvious and natural. They don't have the votes to support a political will favorable
to their interests, so they manipulate the least educated state voting majorities to make up for their own lack of votes.

 

[iguanaman]

When we allow government to do things FOR us, then we must allow government to do things TO us.

Uh, no thanks. All I want government to do is let citizens be free, neither restraining us nor aiding us in our pursuits.

I disagree that the "Big Government" meme is rhetoric.

Our federal government has become massively powerful, and in some cases uses taxation as a form of punishment, or as a method to modify the citizen's behavior. Both are reprehensible.

"As government expands, liberty contracts." - Ronald Reagan

Yet like all Republicans Reagan expanded the govt. and our debt. Because that meme is nothing but rhetoric. Not to mention that Trump wants to make himself all powerful if elected. There is no govt. bigger than a dictatorship.

 

[ralfy]

That's an advantage of having a gold standard, it limits the size and power of government.

One problem with the gold standard is that it works both ways: your money's backed by gold, and any time you can exchange your money for gold. You want to avoid the latter but it's part of the standard.

The other problem was already mentioned: lack of gold and silver. Globally and per capita one gets only a few ounces per person. People need and want more than that.

That's why the U.S. dropped the standard.

What about limiting the size and power of government? There are two problems with that:

What rules the world isn't government but private corporations, with the most powerful in finance:

Revealed – the capitalist network that runs the world

As anti-capitalist protesters take to the streets, mathematics has teased apart the global economic network to show who's really pulling the strings

www.newscientist.com

The last thing that the financial industry needs and wants is a gold standard because it strength lies in increasing credit readily, and much faster than gold and silver that's available.

Meanwhile, most people won't want a gold standard as well because they want higher pay and greater returns on their investment each time, and so do the rich lending to and earning from them.

Finally, government also wants to earn and spend more because that's the only way it is voted to power, and it works those who rule the world because the latter is the main source of credit.

 

[ralfy]

The ones who "do things to us," are the largest donors or the G.O.P. This is obvious and natural. They don't have the votes to support a political will favorable
to their interests, so they manipulate the least educated state voting majorities to make up for their own lack of votes.

Both political parties, the government itself, the military, businesses, and households all work for the rich, which make up 10 pct of the U.S. population and own 70 pct of the country's total wealth. That's because they're also the main source of credit, which each needs to cover spending.

 

[SkyChief]

One problem with the gold standard is that it works both ways: your money's backed by gold, and any time you can exchange your money for gold. You want to avoid the latter but it's part of the standard.

The other problem was already mentioned: lack of gold and silver. Globally and per capita one gets only a few ounces per person. People need and want more than that.

That's why the U.S. dropped the standard.

What about limiting the size and power of government? There are two problems with that:

What rules the world isn't government but private corporations, with the most powerful in finance:

Revealed – the capitalist network that runs the world

As anti-capitalist protesters take to the streets, mathematics has teased apart the global economic network to show who's really pulling the strings

www.newscientist.com

The last thing that the financial industry needs and wants is a gold standard because it strength lies in increasing credit readily, and much faster than gold and silver that's available.

Meanwhile, most people won't want a gold standard as well because they want higher pay and greater returns on their investment each time, and so do the rich lending to and earning from them.

Finally, government also wants to earn and spend more because that's the only way it is voted to power, and it works those who rule the world because the latter is the main source of credit.

Its rare to see so much B.S. stuffed into one post.

Wow. . . . you somehow managed to be 100% wrong. That's remarkable.

There are thousands of tons of unclaimed gold spread around the globe. It takes energy, resources and effort extract it, and refine it. It is there to those who are willing to spend the money and effort to extract it.

That's why gold is the perfect money - - - it cannot be manufactured. It cannot be debased by a corrupt government.

 

[ralfy]

Its rare to see so much B.S. stuffed into one post.

Wow. . . . you somehow managed to be 100% wrong. That's remarkable.

There are thousands of tons of unclaimed gold spread around the globe. It takes energy, resources and effort extract it, and refine it. It is there to those who are willing to spend the money and effort to extract it.

That's why gold is the perfect money - - - it cannot be manufactured. It cannot be debased by a corrupt government.

It's (not "its") rare to see so much B.S. stuffed into one post. At some point, you'll have to explain yourself. For now, I'll ask about the two points you made but didn't prove:

How much "unclaimed" gold are you talking about, and what's the estimated energy cost to extract and refine it? How much energy does the world economy have outside what it uses for itself to extract and refine it?

Finally, if it's "perfect money" and was used in the past, then why did people stop using it? Don't say "corrupt government" because that's the wrong answer.

 

[SkyChief]

It's (not "its") rare to see so much B.S. stuffed into one post. At some point, you'll have to explain yourself. For now, I'll ask about the two points you made but didn't prove:

How much "unclaimed" gold are you talking about, and what's the estimated energy cost to extract and refine it? How much energy does the world economy have outside what it uses for itself to extract and refine it?

Finally, if it's "perfect money" and was used in the past, then why did people stop using it? Don't say "corrupt government" because that's the wrong answer.

Your wealth can be taken by the government with a just a few keystrokes.

My wealth they will need to be physically take from me. Government is generally lazy. They will take your wealth first because it is easy. Government will always come for the ignorant people first. (They tried it in 1933 - - only the most stupid people turned in their physical gold. The smart people held onto their gold)

"A dollar is a receipt for a claim check on an IOU." - Mike Maloney

 

[ralfy]

Your wealth can be taken by the government with a just a few keystrokes.

My wealth they will need to be physically take from me. Government is generally lazy. They will take your wealth first because it is easy. Government will always come for the ignorant people first.

"A dollar is a receipt for a claim check on an IOU." - Mike Maloney

Private corporations can also do that.

What wealth? The gold that you now use for your daily needs? Who are you kidding?

Finally, back to the points you raised:

How much "unclaimed" gold are you talking about, and what's the estimated energy cost to extract and refine it? How much energy does the world economy have outside what it uses for itself to extract and refine it?

Finally, if it's "perfect money" and was used in the past, then why did people stop using it? Don't say "corrupt government" because that's the wrong answer.

 

[SkyChief]

Finally, if it's "perfect money" and was used in the past, then why did people stop using it?

We never stopped using it. Any time I need to make a private trade, I use gold or silver. I've used silver to get haircuts and dental work. I've used gold to buy an airplane.

Government wants you to think we have stopped, but we haven't. I use gold (and silver) for trade often.

Don't say "corrupt government" because that's the wrong answer.

You're living in a fantasy world.

 

[post]

Private corporations can also do that.

What wealth? The gold that you now use for your daily needs? Who are you kidding?

Finally, back to the points you raised:

How much "unclaimed" gold are you talking about, and what's the estimated energy cost to extract and refine it? How much energy does the world economy have outside what it uses for itself to extract and refine it?

Finally, if it's "perfect money" and was used in the past, then why did people stop using it? Don't say "corrupt government" because that's the wrong answer.

Total extraction cost nearly $1,300 oz

Gold miners’ costs reached a record high in 2022 but dropped in the final quarter of the year

In 2022, average all-in sustaining costs (AISC) in the gold mining industry reached a record high, rising by 18% y/y to $1,276/oz. This was 14%, or US$160/oz, above the previous record set in 2012. Post by Adam Webb

www.gold.org

 

[ralfy]

We never stopped using it. Any time I need to make a private trade, I use gold or silver. I've used silver to get haircuts and dental work. I've used gold to buy an airplane.

Government wants you to think we have stopped, but we haven't. I use gold (and silver) for trade often.

You're living in a fantasy world.

LOL. Talk about living in a fantasy world.

Next time, learn to defend your arguments.

 

[ralfy]

Total extraction cost nearly $1,300 oz

Gold miners’ costs reached a record high in 2022 but dropped in the final quarter of the year

In 2022, average all-in sustaining costs (AISC) in the gold mining industry reached a record high, rising by 18% y/y to $1,276/oz. This was 14%, or US$160/oz, above the previous record set in 2012. Post by Adam Webb

www.gold.org

Thanks. We're looking for the energy costs, especially given diminishing returns. This is notable because gold is supposed to replace dollars.

Second, how many ounces does one get per capita for the global population, and how much more can that increase each time?

Given answers to that, we'll see how Sky lives in la-la land.

 

[SkyChief]

LOL. Talk about living in a fantasy world.

Next time, learn to defend your arguments.

Your arguments are based mostly in nonsense and misinformation, mine are based mostly in fact and empirical evidence. There is no need for me to defend my arguments - they are self evident.

You made some patently nonsensical claims

The other problem was already mentioned: lack of gold and silver. Globally and per capita one gets only a few ounces per person. People need and want more than that.

Research the term fractional reserve banking. There doesn't need to be a dollar worth of gold stored in a vault for every dollar in circulation.

That's why the U.S. dropped the standard.

100% WRONG. Nixon ended the gold standard because he needed to pay for the Vietnam war. The U.S. had incurred tremendous debt, and Nixon needed the Federal Reserve to be able to print money without having physical gold reserves to back it.

What about limiting the size and power of government? There are two problems with that:

The Founding Fathers were adamant about limiting government scope and power. Need proof? Read the Bill of Rights. the Bill has one purpose, and one purpose ONLY: to limit government power. It tells lawmakers (Congress) which Rights they cannot mess with.

What rules the world isn't government but private corporations, with the most powerful in finance:

Maybe, but our government has become way too powerful. The Founding Fathers would be shocked to learn of the tremendous power the government has over our lives. It's nearly impossible for the average person to go through the day without breaking some idiotic law.

The last thing that the financial industry needs and wants is a gold standard because it strength lies in increasing credit readily, and much faster than gold and silver that's available.

The availability of gold is not why the financial industry fears a gold backed currency. They fear it because it puts limits on how much they can lend, and therefore limits the amount of interest they can collect.

. . . Finally, government also wants to earn and spend more because that's the only way it is voted to power, and it works those who rule the world because the latter is the main source of credit.

WRONG. Government has NEVER "EARNED" MONEY. They TAKE the money from THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY EARNED IT. You sure have some odd ideas about how money and the government works.

"Gold is money. Everything else is credit." - J. P. Morgan

 

[Yes_Minister]

When we allow government to do things FOR us, then we must allow government to do things TO us.

Uh, no thanks. All I want government to do is let citizens be free, neither restraining us nor aiding us in our pursuits.

I disagree that the "Big Government" meme is rhetoric.

Our federal government has become massively powerful, and in some cases uses taxation as a form of punishment, or as a method to modify the citizen's behavior. Both are reprehensible.

"As government expands, liberty contracts." - Ronald Reagan

Conservatives support big government by wanting the US to be a giant military spending, forcing social conservatism on people who don't want it and corporate subsidies.

If the debt is such a big problem, why didn't the GOP reduce it from 2002 to 2004 or 2017 to 2019 when they had Congress and the White House? Did the trillion dollars spent on Iraq pay for itself or did it get added to the debt?

 

[SkyChief]

Conservatives support big government by wanting the US to be a giant military spending, forcing social conservatism on people who don't want it and corporate subsidies.

If the debt is such a big problem, why didn't the GOP reduce it from 2002 to 2004 or 2017 to 2019 when they had Congress and the White House? Did the trillion dollars spent on Iraq pay for itself or did it get added to the debt?

For the most part, the GOP is not concerned about the debt. They are big spenders - just like the libs.

The only Party that is concerned about the National Debt is the Libertarian Party.

The reason the GOP are big spenders, and spend WAY more than their means is there are no penalties for wasting taxpayers' money.

If they wasted their OWN PERSONAL money as foolishly as they waste OUR money, then they would end up homeless on the streets. They know this, so most Lawmakers are prudent when spending their OWN money.

However when they spend OTHER PEOPLE'S money, they tend to spend it recklessly, because there are no consequences for squandering our money and running up the debt.

Hopefully someday legislation will be introduced to penalize incompetent Congress members. It would not likely pass because Congress doesn't like being held accountable for their deficit spending policies.