Minimum wage hikes trigger 'payroll tsunami,' as small businesses cut back

[Conservative]

You don't have a lot to say, but when you do, you're way out to lunch.

You are so right, I post official Treasury and Labor statistics data which puts me way out there to the radical left. Nothing centrist in your posts because actual results don't matter, your perception and what you want to believe does

 

[Conservative]

If it is not your business to tell the employees how they should react after the initial agreement keep your mouth shut!

If you do not like how they react, or how the government treats business owners, join the rank of the workforce.

See how easy it is to give suggestions?

Amazing how wage slaves their entire career are such experts on private business owners' operating expenses and how wage slaves have no problem spending someone else's money. You give a lot of suggestions from a socialist point of view none of which resonate with the actual results generated

It is amazing to me how someone like you can be so easily indoctrinated by radicals who are multi millionaires, Sanders, Warren, Pelosi, Schumer, Harris, into believing these people are going to do something positive for the American people. These people have you convinced that spending in the name of compassion in the form of minimum wage increases benefits the workers when the reality is it benefits the gov't as it drives up prices, drives up gov't revenue, and makes products more expense for the consumer. Career politicians are making a fool out of everyone that supports them

 

[jet57]

You are so right, I post official Treasury and Labor statistics data which puts me way out there to the radical left. Nothing centrist in your posts because actual results don't matter, your perception and what you want to believe does

So Big Gummit forced BofA to raise their minimum wage. Is that what you're saying?

 

[pamak]

Amazing how wage slaves their entire career are such experts on private business owners' operating expenses and how wage slaves have no problem spending someone else's money. You give a lot of suggestions from a socialist point of view none of which resonate with the actual results generated

It is amazing to me how someone like you can be so easily indoctrinated by radicals who are multi millionaires, Sanders, Warren, Pelosi, Schumer, Harris, into believing these people are going to do something positive for the American people. These people have you convinced that spending in the name of compassion in the form of minimum wage increases benefits the workers when the reality is it benefits the gov't as it drives up prices, drives up gov't revenue, and makes products more expense for the consumer. Career politicians are making a fool out of everyone that supports them

Well, my wife who had her own business up until her retirement was also a supporter for increasing the minimum wage in our area. There is no reason to assume that your personal experience justifies your position. In fact, your personal experience makes you BIASED on this issue! On the there hand, I am an outsider since I am neither a business owner nor an employee earning minimum wage!

 

[Conservative]

Well, my wife who had her own business up until her retirement was also a supporter for increasing the minimum wage in our area. There is no reason to assume that your personal experience justifies your position. In fact, your personal experience makes you BIASED on this issue! On the there hand, I am an outsider since I am neither a business owner nor an employee earning minimum wage!

What business is it of your wife as to what someone else pays their workers? Your wife controlled her own business and chose what to pay her workers, why isn't that good enough for you with other businesses? My personal experience indeed does justify my position, 35 years worth with P&L Responsibilities. You are wrong on this issue and in fact you are an outsider ignoring basic logic and common sense. Being an outsider would cause you to look at the entire situation including investment, risk taking, federal, state, and local taxes along with regulations. Driving up wages impacts not only the business owner but the cost of goods and services affecting the poor who in your state is at nation wide highs.

 

[pamak]

What business is it of your wife as to what someone else pays their workers? Your wife controlled her own business and chose what to pay her workers, why isn't that good enough for you with other businesses? My personal experience indeed does justify my position, 35 years worth with P&L Responsibilities. You are wrong on this issue and in fact you are an outsider ignoring basic logic and common sense. Being an outsider would cause you to look at the entire situation including investment, risk taking, federal, state, and local taxes along with regulations. Driving up wages impacts not only the business owner but the cost of goods and services affecting the poor who in your state is at nation wide highs.

It is a civics business!
Mind you that government is inseparable part of small business like LLCs and Scorps which rely on government regulation for limited liability laws.

 

[Conservative]

So Big Gummit forced BofA to raise their minimum wage. Is that what you're saying?

BoA CHOSE to raise their rates and therein lies the reality of business. No business should be told what to pay its workers and should be able to set whatever wage they want, too low and they get no employees, too high and their drive out business by pricing themselves out of the market. How does any company set its prices for services or products?

 

[Conservative]

It is a civics business!
Mind you that government is inseparable part of small business like LLCs and Scorps which rely on government regulation for limited liability laws.

Are you ever going to address the points made, what effect does higher wages have on the business, the gov't, the community, and the consumers?

 

[pamak]

Are you ever going to address the points made, what effect does higher wages have on the business, the gov't, the community, and the consumers?

I never challenged the issue that higher minimum wages does not affect a business. I am challenging the fact that a healthy business model cannot survive if the minimum wage goes up! I am more interested on the effect of the minimum wage on the minimum wage workers. I am more than happy to chip in as a consumer and I already mentioned that many restaurants here have increased prices as a result of the minimum wage increase, and they note it in their catalog.

 

[Conservative]

I never challenged the issue that higher minimum wages does not affect a business. I am challenging the fact that a healthy business model cannot survive if the minimum wage goes up! I am more interested on the effect of the minimum wage on the minimum wage workers. I am more than happy to chip in as a consumer and I already mentioned that many restaurants here have increased prices as a result of the minimum wage increase, and they note it in their catalog.

Again, what does that do to sales in the community and how does it affect the poor? Healthy business model?? All this focus on the employer and none on the employee. When a business owner has a poor business model he goes out of business taking his employees with him. Employees make a choice where to work and with bad choices comes consequences but this issue is bigger than just the business owner and employees, it affects the community and consumers

 

[pamak]

Again, what does that do to sales in the community and how does it affect the poor? Healthy business model?? All this focus on the employer and none on the employee. When a business owner has a poor business model he goes out of business taking his employees with him. Employees make a choice where to work and with bad choices comes consequences but this issue is bigger than just the business owner and employees, it affects the community and consumers

Sales in the community is a product of many variables! The sales in out community did just fine after we raised wages here. The unemployment did not increase (in fact, it continued to decrease) and whoever business owner could to make it under the new minimum wage regulations was replaced by owners who were capable to function in the new environment . Employees could find jobs in new business or in old ones which had to hire more people to face increased demand after some of their competitors went down!

 

[Obscurity]

Remember folks; business owners and the rich class are responsible for the global demolition of the middle class. Despite Trump and his false promises, Obama and his false promises, the middle class has been systemically disenfranchized and demolished.

Business owners and the rich have ended benefits like profit sharing in their endless quest for self enrichment, that enabled a strong middle class.

Business owners and the rich have systemically infected our politics with anti-public rhetoric, demolishing unions which also enabled a strong middle class.

Business owners and the rich have systemically underpaid employees throughout the past 4 decades of disgusting Reagan trickledown failanomics, which has resulted in the terminal condition of the middle class, and proliferated the welfare state to intolerable levels.

Remember, folks, who has done this to America. Not Socialists. Not regulations. Capitalists who insist the race to the bottom is in the benefit of everyone, and yet, they only are the beneficiaries of such fiscal policies.

Remember, folks, who has done this to America. When business owners and the rich dismantle programs that ensured a strong middle class, and that diminished the welfare state, when those crony scum sit here and tell you it's not your business - **** that. If my taxes go to support your underpaid employees, it IS MY BUSINESS.

 

[Conservative]

Sales in the community is a product of many variables! The sales in out community did just fine after we raised wages here. The unemployment did not increase (in fact, it continued to decrease) and whoever business owner could to make it under the new minimum wage regulations was replaced by owners who were capable to function in the new environment . Employees could find jobs in new business or in old ones which had to hire more people to face increased demand after some of their competitors went down!

You really just love to argue, don't you? Many variables? yes, I set prices, how did your wife set hers? You really believe your community did fine after raising prices? Are you that oblivious to the plight of the poor? Rising costs also means rising social spending thus more dependence another factor in raising prices. You really have no understanding of the private sector including your wife's own business.

Driving poor business owners out of business is part of the private sector but when the business leaves so do the employees Replaced by other businesses yes in time and what does the employee do in the meantime, collect unemployment and more state and local benefits all at a cost to the taxpayers

 

[pamak]

You really just love to argue, don't you? Many variables? yes, I set prices, how did your wife set hers? You really believe your community did fine after raising prices? Are you that oblivious to the plight of the poor? Rising costs also means rising social spending thus more dependence another factor in raising prices. You really have no understanding of the private sector including your wife's own business.

Driving poor business owners out of business is part of the private sector but when the business leaves so do the employees Replaced by other businesses yes in time and what does the employee do in the meantime, collect unemployment and more state and local benefits all at a cost to the taxpayers

The plight of the poor existed before the raise of the wages. if anything, the plight of the poor went down after the increase of minimum wages...

Also, as I said, the EXISTING business does see an increased demand and hire more people when competitors file for bankruptcy. No matter how you slice it, the fact that unemployment actually continued to decrease eve after the increase of the minimum wage is proof that whatever business closed did not affect the workers.

 

[Conservative]

The plight of the poor existed before the raise of the wages. if anything, the plight of the poor went down after the increase of minimum wages...

Also, as I said, the EXISTING business does see an increased demand and hire more people when competitors file for bankruptcy. No matter how you slice it, the fact that unemployment actually continued to decrease eve after the increase of the minimum wage is proof that whatever business closed did not affect the workers.

Yes that is true but what you are focusing on the employee, most of whom are first time wage earners, part time employees, second job holders, students and ignoring any consequences for higher prices. You see in that liberal world of yours you are an expert on everything and there are no such thing as consequences for poor decision making as well as bad choices in taking jobs or creating your own poverty or homelessness

AS I pointed out higher wages impact personal expenses, consumer demand, state and local benefits for the poor, taxes for the federal, state, local governments none of which resonate with you or the radical left. You have no vested interest in this issue and will just move on to some other socialist utopia program when this program fails or there are negative effects of it.

 

[pamak]

Yes that is true but what you are focusing on the employee, most of whom are first time wage earners, part time employees, second job holders, students and ignoring any consequences for higher prices. You see in that liberal world of yours you are an expert on everything and there are no such thing as consequences for poor decision making as well as bad choices in taking jobs or creating your own poverty or homelessness

AS I pointed out higher wages impact personal expenses, consumer demand, state and local benefits for the poor, taxes for the federal, state, local governments none of which resonate with you or the radical left. You have no vested interest in this issue and will just move on to some other socialist utopia program when this program fails or there are negative effects of it.

You point out many things but you do not point the one thing that matters the most. That is the unemployment rate which continues to decrease even after the increase of the minimum wage. Timing is everything. it is one thing to try to increase minimum wage during a recession and it is another thing to do it while the economy is growing.

 

[OlNate]

Who gave them that profit?

Was it the government? Nope

I believe it was the consumer who shopped there, because they offer better pricing than the other guy

How? By keeping their costs down....blame the world man.

We want the most, and we want it for the least

That is the world we live in.....Walmart and others are catering to what us....the consumers want

If we wanted, we could put mom and pop’s back in business....but that isn’t what the American consumer wants

But all you want to do is blame the company for providing what the people want, at the price they want

Profit isn’t a dirty word....so many of you get almost angry because companies make money

If you think it’s easy, start your own company....see for yourself

And I don’t work for free....

I find this response strange...why does not wanting to subsidize corporations equate to hating profit? When a company realizes a "profit" by running their business to where they pay their employees so low that the government must step in with social programs, that's not "earning profit"....that's accepting a handout, paid for by all of your fellow citizens. Should a company exist under those circumstances? Or should it move the **** over?

Of course the government gave them that … or a chunk of it, anyway. If their employees were paid to where they didn't need food stamps, the profit margin would be less - good thing they have a lot of wiggle room. Or, if they still needed to make a big profit, they'd have to get their consumers to pay more. Either way, their profits are heavily impacted by how little they pay their workforce, and they can do that because the government picks up the slack - without that, folks couldn't work there. :shrug:

I'm not blaming business owners for consumer demand. But again, minimum wage is a uniform cost - if it forces you to raise your prices, your competition must also raise their prices, assuming everyone is paying their workers minimum wage. It's a flat impact. If someone can't afford your services at the new rate, they can't afford anyone else's services either. If that service is essential, which I would say yours is, then that represents a gap where the government needs to step in and increase subsidy.

No one is suggesting you work for free...at worst, the minimum wage should apply for you as well. Personally, though, I think that until every single employee can be proven to be free of government assistance driven by the employer paying a low wage, the business owner shouldn't make a dime over what their lowest paid person makes. Imagine how quickly wages would increase in that scenario...haha... Something tells me you would be more motivated to find a way.

One last thing: just because I think ripping off employees is a bad thing, that doesn't mean I don't know what it's like to run a business. I think it's a massive cop out to suggest that - there are lots of businesses who pay above the minimum, whether that be minimum wage, or the industry average rate. You can usually pick them out, they're the successful ones. I'm not setting out to be offensive here, but if you're going to condescend, maybe start by asking yourself why they can do it, and you can't, and why is that anyone's problem but your own. You were saying something about a sense of entitlement?

 

[OlNate]

Eleven bucks an hour is crap wages....good to know

Since most were at minimum wage when I walked in....

You can crap all over my business plan all you want....I live and breathe it everyday

And when I look at myself in the mirror everyday, I have nothing but pride for the way I run it

lol..I see the problem here...you're taking this personally.

I'm not saying you're a bad dude, man, we're chatting here. I don't know you, I don't know your business, other than what you tell me. I'm sure you're a great guy, and I think you've represented yourself well in this discussion.

But this is an anonymous debate forum, and we disagree. If you want me to pull my punches, you need to tell me ahead of time. I'm not trying to wreck your day, man. This is just where I go to argue with people for fun. Don't let it get further in your head than that.

 

[Conservative]

You point out many things but you do not point the one thing that matters the most. That is the unemployment rate which continues to decrease even after the increase of the minimum wage. Timing is everything. it is one thing to try to increase minimum wage during a recession and it is another thing to do it while the economy is growing.

And like most liberals you cherrypick data to suit your position, the article posted is being ignored. You still don't get it, it isn't the governments role to tell a private business what to pay their workers even with that authority. Your state is a fiscal disaster with the wage gap among the highest in the nation and millions bypassed relegated to poverty which increases dependence on the state. Keep raising those rates and keep seeing your state and local taxes going up to take care of the poor and homeless who cannot afford those higher prices

 

[pamak]

And like most liberals you cherrypick data to suit your position, the article posted is being ignored. You still don't get it, it isn't the governments role to tell a private business what to pay their workers even with that authority. Your state is a fiscal disaster with the wage gap among the highest in the nation and millions bypassed relegated to poverty which increases dependence on the state. Keep raising those rates and keep seeing your state and local taxes going up to take care of the poor and homeless who cannot afford those higher prices

The small business owners who ask the government's protection of limited liability laws cannot choose when it is appropriate to have the government intervene in the economic activity and when it is not Also, there is a reason we say government by the people and FOR the people. Finally, if you think that the wage gap in my state is big, then this is an additional reason why you should welcome an increase of the minimum wage.

 

[OlNate]

Do you pay out (payroll).......?

I do.

I suppose you think I should pay a sweeper and tool & coffee gopher..................$15.00 an hour?

Honestly...I have to remember that $15USD is a little different than $15CAD. It's aggressive, I'll give it that, even for a filthy communist like me...hehe... Were I the decider of all things (I really need to figure out how to get that job), I'd be open to a debate on how much minimum wage should be. Perhaps there should be a different minimum wage for full and part time employees.

But, if you're asking for someone to work for you full time, and they cannot live off of what you're paying them, to where the government needs to offset the gap with social assistance while you enjoy a profit, I'd say there's a problem there. Wouldn't you?

 

[Tanya]

Honestly...I have to remember that $15USD is a little different than $15CAD. It's aggressive, I'll give it that, even for a filthy communist like me...hehe... Were I the decider of all things (I really need to figure out how to get that job), I'd be open to a debate on how much minimum wage should be. Perhaps there should be a different minimum wage for full and part time employees.

But, if you're asking for someone to work for you full time, and they cannot live off of what you're paying them, to where the government needs to offset the gap with social assistance while you enjoy a profit, I'd say there's a problem there. Wouldn't you?

This sounds like a personal problem.

 

[OlNate]

This sounds like a personal problem.

Sorry, not understanding.

 

[Conservative]

The small business owners who ask the government's protection of limited liability laws cannot choose when it is appropriate to have the government intervene in the economic activity and when it is not Also, there is a reason we say government by the people and FOR the people. Finally, if you think that the wage gap in my state is big, then this is an additional reason why you should welcome an increase of the minimum wage.

Again, keep diverting from the thread topic. With regard to the minimum wage increase in your state, does a $15 per hour wage get people out of poverty in California? NO, of course not, your cost of living, your taxes, your entitlement mentality eats up that wage increase driving up all other costs in your state but keep promoting liberal socialism and see how the country responds in 2020

 

[Conservative]

Honestly...I have to remember that $15USD is a little different than $15CAD. It's aggressive, I'll give it that, even for a filthy communist like me...hehe... Were I the decider of all things (I really need to figure out how to get that job), I'd be open to a debate on how much minimum wage should be. Perhaps there should be a different minimum wage for full and part time employees.

But, if you're asking for someone to work for you full time, and they cannot live off of what you're paying them, to where the government needs to offset the gap with social assistance while you enjoy a profit, I'd say there's a problem there. Wouldn't you?

No, the problem is as usual the individual whose cost of living will not be served by any minimum wage increase so they seek gov't protection and the gov't to step into another area in which they don't belong. Socialists like you will never understand the private sector and how our Private sector has created the greatest economy in the world, one that you are jealous of and want to destroy. Why would the gov't offset the gap without understanding the profit demand of the employee? What is a livable wage in your world?